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Old 2013-01-12, 15:05   Link #31641
Renall
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If Dawn is indeed the last work, one presumes Requiem and Twilight are not Forgeries at all. Is that suggested anywhere?

EDIT: Bernkastel refers to the story in ep7 as Requiem of the Golden Witch within ep7 itself. Other than its own title, Twilight is never referred to by anyone. Although Battler refers to a "final tale" within Twilight, actually...
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:24   Link #31642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Dawn is indeed the last work, one presumes Requiem and Twilight are not Forgeries at all. Is that suggested anywhere?
I think this comes down to the question that comes up every time, "What actually is a Forgery". If we go by what was given in EP1 already and continued in the same fashion up to the TIPs for EP8 then it could be everything that was written after the incident.
If we consider Legend and Turn the original message bottles, Banquet and Alliance works written by Hachijo Toya and Dawn an unfinished manuscript that was still in the working stage, then End could be a theory by "those who placed Furudo Erika on the island".
In End we have a theory that Battler clearly does not agree with, which could also show Toya going over the "End theory" (in whatever case it reached him) and he simply did not agree with the proposed Natsuhi culprit theory, because something in the back of his mind (Battler) told him it is wrong.

Theories like End and Requiem, from my point of view, can just be competing works of literature, manuscripts by other people or even just theories on the internet. Twilight could be something like an afterword which was considered by Toya...or it is really just Ange's theory, which would explain why it is possible for her to struggle so much with it.

That's why I always have a slight problem with the translation of 偽書 as Forgeries, because while it is a correct translation, a Gisho can also be an apocryphal book...so something that is not considered as "canonical" by a higher instance.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:46   Link #31643
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That's not what he's asking, Haguruma. He's asking whether those two episodes exist as manuscripts in Ange's world whatsoever, not whether or not they're 'legitimate' manuscripts.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:48   Link #31644
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I'm confused... where was it said that the book for Beato, the one that was laid in her coffin upon her chest had to represent the one truth or that it's the last work? The book of the single truth is Eva's diary (which is also the book on the chapel's altar) and the last tale Battler wrote is, supposedly, the one for Ange, not for Beato.


Interesting enough Requiem and Twilight both contain 1 what if tales crossing with another tale that seems more on the style of our normal tales and that have a solution.

Requiem has, as what if, Lion's tale (which supposedly ends with everyone's death) and that is seriously different from the others as there's Lion, Kinzo is still alive and there's no Battler and this tale crosses over with the ones in which Rudolf and Kyrie are culprits.

Twilight has, as what if, a tale in which Ange went on Rokkenjima and, supposedly, nothing happened and that crosses over with a tale in which Battler and his family are culprits.

Both tales have also references to Dawn (the beginning for Requiem and I'll say the scene with Battler and Beato drowining seems to be a sequel of Dawn as Battler tries to bring Beato away from Rokkenjima as he promised her in Dawn).

Interesting enough people from Twilight are unaware of the existence of Requiem as Lion and Will's story come as a surprise for Battler and Beato so in a fashion Twilight and Requiem are a cross over of two different words.

There's also some confusion about who's the author of Twilight as Battler is supposedly the author of part of it, but Bern is also the author of the game and Featherine also claims to have written something for Ange...

So, at least in the Meta, Twilight is a book containing more than 1 story, written by more than 1 author.

And honestly I've no idea if a Twilight exist in Prime and what it contains. For all we know it could contain Bern's tale instead than Ange's tale and be a forgery written by someone who's not Tohya.
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Old 2013-01-12, 19:03   Link #31645
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not what he's asking, Haguruma. He's asking whether those two episodes exist as manuscripts in Ange's world whatsoever, not whether or not they're 'legitimate' manuscripts.
Yeah, and from that, what are they anyhow, and how many are there?

If you look at Requiem there are potentially at least four possible stories:
  • Will's investigation of Lion's world.
  • The Kinzo submarine story (may or may not be part of the Will story).
  • Yasu/Clair backstory segment with the stage motifs etc.
  • Kyrie's Super Fun Shoot-Em-Up Time.
Similar multiple narratives exist in Twilight. Now, multiple narratives have always been in the stories on the whole, but they've always maintained a sort of "layered" feel, while ep7 and ep8 feel more like jjblue said, an "anthology." Although the episodes themselves weave the stories together in a somewhat coherent fashion, I'm not entirely sure they'd stand on their own as works in the universe where Forgeries apparently do not contain all of these things, or at least where we can't tell. Even if everything in Turn was as we read it, Requiem is still very much a different sort of story in structure and style.

So what are things like End, the Lion universe, the Battler's family culprit theories, Ange Happytime World? Fan works? Is Bern's game exactly that, a "game" Forgery not intended to stand up as a literary work but more as a whodunnit puzzle?

Though the idea that at least some part of Twilight is written by (or at least read by) Ange seems very probable.
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Old 2013-01-13, 04:04   Link #31646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So what are things like End, the Lion universe, the Battler's family culprit theories, Ange Happytime World? Fan works? Is Bern's game exactly that, a "game" Forgery not intended to stand up as a literary work but more as a whodunnit puzzle?

Though the idea that at least some part of Twilight is written by (or at least read by) Ange seems very probable.
That was one of the points I was aiming at, though maybe I cut it a little too short because I did not have much time.

I don't think that these "Forgeries" necessarily have to be complete literary works in the world of Umineko to function in the logic of the series. Sure, some of them were revealed to be more or less actual literary works in that world, but I am not quite sure that this has to be the same for all of them.

Requiem for me was always just a collection of theories and ideas from which something like a "meta-gameboard" was formed. Just like how this very board here could be transferred into a very erratic, chaotic gameboard. In the end Bern takes everything that she got her hands on and forms her very own theory from it and it is a perfectly valid one.

This also leads me again to the question of the Logic Error.
It wasn't mentioned until it was actually called into question, which means that games can actually progress while containing a logic error, they are just fatally flawed as theories on the Rokkenjima Incident and easy to attack. But on the other hand it also means that any game is valid, not based on how reasonable it is in relation to reality, but only on it being technically possible.
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:45   Link #31647
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Which one should we consider Rokken-Prime anyway?
If its ep 1 its pretty easy to solve lol

If its a not shown world consisting out of all the reds then a bit harder, not impossible though.
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Old 2013-01-13, 07:41   Link #31648
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There's something I've been wondering about lately, which probably has no answer but I think warrants some discussion at least; how many people here actually believe that a multiverse exists in Umineko? Leaving out the meta-world for the time being, I'm just talking about the idea of 'Fragments'/parallel universes existing in Umineko, in the same way as Higurashi.

I think that most of us would probably say that the idea of Fragments is part of the magical layer, and is a metaphor for the various interpretations and possibilities inside the cat box of the single Rokkenjima incident; in other words, that there is only one reality. Well, obviously. This is where the whole notion of 'Prime' comes from, after all. And it makes a lot of sense; we're initially led to believe that each episode takes place in a different Fragment, but we then learn in Episode 6 that each episode in fact corresponds to a fictional message bottle story written about the incident.

But what do we actually take as 'Prime'? We would say "the 1998 narrative", but there seem to be at least three different versions of that. This is actually something KNM mentions in his videos, and though his explanation for it is even more incomprehensible than the rest of his videos, I think he is right that it's something that seems to get conveniently ignored a lot of the time.

Basically we have three versions of the 1998 narrative:
--Episode 4's, starting with Ange jumping off the skyscraper and culminating in her death on Rokkenjima.
--Episode 6's, which seems to be identical to Episode 4's but with the difference that Ange was able to meet "Hachijo Tohya" (or rather, Ikuko).
--Episode 8's, where Ange doesn't jump off the skyscraper and eventually meets Tohya and Ikuko.

So we have a case where, just as Chiru thoroughly debunks the notion of parallel universes in 1986, it seems to introduce parallel universes into 1998 at the same time, which is pretty bizarre. What is interesting is that even though we would generally assert that there is only one single reality, we tend to take information from all three of these incompatible timelines as being from the 'real world', even referring to each of them as "Prime" at times.

For example, we would probably say that all of the following scenes contain reliable information about Prime:
-Ange's conversation with Nanjo's son in Episode 4, where he talks about the money he mysteriously received after the incident.
-Ange's conversation with "Hachijo Tohya" in Episode 6, where she talks about writing the Forgeries entitled Banquet, Alliance, End and Dawn.
-Ange's meeting with Tohya and Ikuko where she learns that Tohya is Battler and that the two of them wrote the stories together.

How exactly do we do this without rejecting the claim that there is even a single true reality to begin with?

Now, it is completely possible to dismiss two of these three timelines as fictional, which would give us a single reality. But then we run into more problems. For example, if we say that EP8's timeline is the truth (which we would have to in order to believe in the existence of Tohya-Battler at all), then we could say that EP4 and EP6's timelines are part of the "Alliance" and "Dawn" Forgeries. This does make sense to a point, until one asks the question: 'Where is our belief that the "Alliance" and "Dawn" Forgeries even exist actually coming from?' Because the passages that confirm their existence are entirely within EP6's 1998 narrative, which has been relegated to part of the "Dawn" Forgery. So the only reason to believe that the Forgeries correspond to the episodes is inside one of the Forgeries themselves, one that we have no way of knowing exists besides evidence that is contained inside itself. So we end up with a paradox where we say that "Dawn" exists because "Dawn" says so!

This is all basically a meaningless thought exercise, of course, but I'm still curious as to what other people think about this.
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Old 2013-01-13, 10:56   Link #31649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
There's something I've been wondering about lately, which probably has no answer but I think warrants some discussion at least; how many people here actually believe that a multiverse exists in Umineko? Leaving out the meta-world for the time being, I'm just talking about the idea of 'Fragments'/parallel universes existing in Umineko, in the same way as Higurashi.

I think that most of us would probably say that the idea of Fragments is part of the magical layer, and is a metaphor for the various interpretations and possibilities inside the cat box of the single Rokkenjima incident; in other words, that there is only one reality. Well, obviously. This is where the whole notion of 'Prime' comes from, after all. And it makes a lot of sense; we're initially led to believe that each episode takes place in a different Fragment, but we then learn in Episode 6 that each episode in fact corresponds to a fictional message bottle story written about the incident.

But what do we actually take as 'Prime'? We would say "the 1998 narrative", but there seem to be at least three different versions of that. This is actually something KNM mentions in his videos, and though his explanation for it is even more incomprehensible than the rest of his videos, I think he is right that it's something that seems to get conveniently ignored a lot of the time.

Basically we have three versions of the 1998 narrative:
--Episode 4's, starting with Ange jumping off the skyscraper and culminating in her death on Rokkenjima.
--Episode 6's, which seems to be identical to Episode 4's but with the difference that Ange was able to meet "Hachijo Tohya" (or rather, Ikuko).
--Episode 8's, where Ange doesn't jump off the skyscraper and eventually meets Tohya and Ikuko.

So we have a case where, just as Chiru thoroughly debunks the notion of parallel universes in 1986, it seems to introduce parallel universes into 1998 at the same time, which is pretty bizarre. What is interesting is that even though we would generally assert that there is only one single reality, we tend to take information from all three of these incompatible timelines as being from the 'real world', even referring to each of them as "Prime" at times.

For example, we would probably say that all of the following scenes contain reliable information about Prime:
-Ange's conversation with Nanjo's son in Episode 4, where he talks about the money he mysteriously received after the incident.
-Ange's conversation with "Hachijo Tohya" in Episode 6, where she talks about writing the Forgeries entitled Banquet, Alliance, End and Dawn.
-Ange's meeting with Tohya and Ikuko where she learns that Tohya is Battler and that the two of them wrote the stories together.

How exactly do we do this without rejecting the claim that there is even a single true reality to begin with?

Now, it is completely possible to dismiss two of these three timelines as fictional, which would give us a single reality. But then we run into more problems. For example, if we say that EP8's timeline is the truth (which we would have to in order to believe in the existence of Tohya-Battler at all), then we could say that EP4 and EP6's timelines are part of the "Alliance" and "Dawn" Forgeries. This does make sense to a point, until one asks the question: 'Where is our belief that the "Alliance" and "Dawn" Forgeries even exist actually coming from?' Because the passages that confirm their existence are entirely within EP6's 1998 narrative, which has been relegated to part of the "Dawn" Forgery. So the only reason to believe that the Forgeries correspond to the episodes is inside one of the Forgeries themselves, one that we have no way of knowing exists besides evidence that is contained inside itself. So we end up with a paradox where we say that "Dawn" exists because "Dawn" says so!

This is all basically a meaningless thought exercise, of course, but I'm still curious as to what other people think about this.
As far as I'm involved Prime is the universe in which officially, only Eva survived, Ange was entrusted to her but, after Eva's death she disappeared and the public knows there's a writer that write popular forgeries about the Rokkenjima incident, Itouikukuro, as well as a writer called Hachijo Tohya.

Ange's destiny and Hachijo Tohya and Itouikukuro's real identities are in a different cat box from the one of the mystery of Rokkenjima but are in a cat box as well... which allows Ange to have more than one ending.

In short the true Prime is only what is publically known. Ange's history that didn't make in the newspapers can be true (Ange might have become Kotobuki Yukari for all we know) but might also be a 'forgery', people's speculation or wishful thinking (if Tohya is Battler) as I've no idea if people write forgeries about the Last Ushiromiya who misteriously disappeared.

Mind you, that's what I call/consider Prime as it seems that's the post Rokkenjima universe the novel wants us to focus on.

In itself nothing stops Lion's world or Ep 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 to be real... although apparently Umineko could care less about what happened after them.
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Old 2013-01-13, 12:22   Link #31650
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I don't think we ever saw "Prime." Possibly not even in ep8. The absolute closest thing to it might be the stuff with Ange and the Hachijous reuniting, but... is it? I'm not convinced.

Plus I think it makes more sense with Ryukishi's purposes that Prime never be revealed.

At any rate, I am almost 100% certain he has never shown us "October 4-5 1986 Prime"

EDIT: Also we know the story doesn't end in 1998. So speculation on "What did Ange do in 1998?" could spin a catbox of its own...
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Old 2013-01-13, 12:36   Link #31651
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Now, it is completely possible to dismiss two of these three timelines as fictional, which would give us a single reality. But then we run into more problems.
I agree with jiblue1 on this, Ushiromiya Ange's catbox exists separately from Beatrice's catbox, though Beatrice's is technically at least partly inside Ange's.
The emergence of Kotobuki Yukari at the end of the narrative does not necessarily answer what became of Ushiromiya Ange after 1998. It could very well be just another narrative that is spun around a famous author who somehow uses imagery that might have been connected to the Rokkenjima incident in 1986 (in case Sakutaro was ever publicly known to have been created by Rosa). Even if Kotobuki Yukari is actually Ushiromiya Ange like it is presented to us, she could be the Ange who survived the attack on her on Rokkenjima in 1998 and changed her identity or the Ushiromiya Ange who sold her company to Okonogi in exchange for another identity. The only thing we know is that Ushiromiya Ange died in 1998, just like Ushiromiya Battler died in 1986. Ange could have just as well actually killed Amakusa on Rokkenjima. After rereading the scene with the imaginary Eva again (considering how it is hinted in the Angel of 17 years TIP that it is him who uses "Cool" as a phrase) it seems pretty logical if that was actually Amakusa.

Thus Ange's fate is as much in a catbox from our perspective as the events on Rokkenjima. We would have to make theories about it as much as we have to do about Rokkenjima, only that the possibilities are less open from what the narrative gives us.

Still I would say that it isn't necessarily a question if parallel worlds exist or not. I think it's both and it is highly dependent on each other, but the final answer can only be given by yourself. In the theoretical space of Rokkenjima, within the catbox, worlds with and without magic existed parallely, only when the catbox is opened do all other options crumble. But who opens the catbox? From a story-telling perspective this should be taken back to earlier works by Ryukishi written on the same topic, in this case this would be Higurashi's Saikoroshi-hen.

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen:


A similar point is brought up in Umineko. Ange despairs because she does not have access to an absolute truth, that what is called the Red Truth in the meta-narrative. She demands, like Erika, an absolute guarantee of something being right, or else it could just as well be wrong. She demands a perfection that humans just cannot reach.
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Old 2013-01-13, 13:51   Link #31652
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I see, those are some very interesting perspectives. Never really heard any of these ideas before. I'd kind of thought the 'cat box' metaphor was only to be applied to the 1986 incident, but it seems that it actually applies to 1998 and beyond as well. A truly enigmatic story.
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Old 2013-01-13, 14:50   Link #31653
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I see, those are some very interesting perspectives. Never really heard any of these ideas before. I'd kind of thought the 'cat box' metaphor was only to be applied to the 1986 incident, but it seems that it actually applies to 1998 and beyond as well. A truly enigmatic story.
Of course the question then becomes, how much of the 1998 stuff are we to take as "reliable information" about 1998 itself?

As an example, the stories of Dr. Nanjo and Kumasawa's sons. They both more or less verify the "strange keys sent by a weird mailing method that open bank boxes packed with unidentified cash" story. But they're contained within a 1998 story in which Ange jumps off a building, survives, goes on the run from Kasumi, doesn't visit Hachijou Tohya, and does visit Rokkenjima. We know those details about Ange's actions are subject to variation (in ep6, she does visit "Tohya," and in ep8, she basically does something completely different).

So what about the money boxes? It's an odd detail to add because it doesn't actually influence Ange's story in any significant way. Does that mean it's "true information" about the Prime world that happens to be included in a story, in much the same way that Ange not being present in 1986 is "true information" that happens to be included in most Rokkenjima Forgeries?

Ultimately, I don't know that we know, but we sort of assume it (much like the fact that the message bottles themselves were published and that the Witch Hunters exist). Future information would provide some confirmation. For example, "1998 Prime" probably would be able to tell us stuff like, did Amakusa and Captain Kawabata die? If Kawabata's still alive and never remembers taking Ange to Rokkenjima, then either she never went or he took her, survived, and started lying about it. If Kawabata is dead, how did he die and how would people know it? Likewise the building jump story. Did Ange actually jump off a building at any point? If she didn't, where did that tale get started? There was an implication that it was publicized, but was it? In Prime we could look up newspaper archives, so that would be well-known in the future.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:21   Link #31654
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Of course the question then becomes, how much of the 1998 stuff are we to take as "reliable information" about 1998 itself?

As an example, the stories of Dr. Nanjo and Kumasawa's sons. They both more or less verify the "strange keys sent by a weird mailing method that open bank boxes packed with unidentified cash" story. But they're contained within a 1998 story in which Ange jumps off a building, survives, goes on the run from Kasumi, doesn't visit Hachijou Tohya, and does visit Rokkenjima. We know those details about Ange's actions are subject to variation (in ep6, she does visit "Tohya," and in ep8, she basically does something completely different).

So what about the money boxes? It's an odd detail to add because it doesn't actually influence Ange's story in any significant way. Does that mean it's "true information" about the Prime world that happens to be included in a story, in much the same way that Ange not being present in 1986 is "true information" that happens to be included in most Rokkenjima Forgeries?

Ultimately, I don't know that we know, but we sort of assume it (much like the fact that the message bottles themselves were published and that the Witch Hunters exist). Future information would provide some confirmation. For example, "1998 Prime" probably would be able to tell us stuff like, did Amakusa and Captain Kawabata die? If Kawabata's still alive and never remembers taking Ange to Rokkenjima, then either she never went or he took her, survived, and started lying about it. If Kawabata is dead, how did he die and how would people know it? Likewise the building jump story. Did Ange actually jump off a building at any point? If she didn't, where did that tale get started? There was an implication that it was publicized, but was it? In Prime we could look up newspaper archives, so that would be well-known in the future.
Technically it's hard to say which information is true and which is not.

The info about the keys must be true for all the gameboards and is confirmed by Our Confession as well. Is it true for Prime? if it's true Yasu really paid people and comes to wonder why?
Was it for the murder game or for a mere mystery game? If it was for an innocent mystery game then why send the money in such way when she could have handed the keys personally... unless she planned to disappear anyway?
But then she could have sent the money after disappearing, there was no need to send it earlier unless she wanted to fake her death (which could be the mysterious thing that would have happened has Battler not returned).

In short, if people were paid, Yasu was probably up to something.

But can we prove that the keys were really sent?

Not really, actually likely this info for the people of Prime is in a catbox of which they don't even know the existence.

The bank is probably not spreading the info and maybe it doesn't even know the connection between the money and Rokkenjima.

The people involved aren't talking. Apparently they would talk about it with Ange but only Ange and Amakusa can confirm this and they disappeared.

Likely this info is not in the messages in the bottle or the police might have controlled if this really happened, it would become of public domain and Ange wouldn't need to go to someone to discover it.

So the only ones who can be aware of the keys existence (if the keys existed) are the people who received them, Ange (if she really went to talk with them) and Tohya (if Battler learnt about it by Yasu).

Now... assuming the future of Ange is a speculation either done by Ange as she wonders about her future or by Tohya as he wonders about what happened to Ange, they both can add the existence of the keys to their tale about Ange's fate while ordinary people could, at best, merely add the part of Ange visiting certain people (as this info could have been discovered).

So, my guess is that the tales of Ange's adventures are 'written' by either Ange or Tohya. As Ange doesn't seem to have solved the tales, she would add the detail of the key only if it were true.
Tohya, on the other side, of course can write a story in which he pictures Ange discovering about the keys but could also be tempted to mix a fantasy with the truth... however... which would be the point of picturing an immaginary story of Ange in which Ange has no chance to do a certain thing?

I like to think that if there's Tohya behind Ange's tales it's because he was trying to picture what happened to his sister and not because he wanted to give us extra hints about the mystery of Rokkenjima.

So, for me, the keys really existed even though I seriously doubt that, apart from the people directly involved, someone knows about their existence.

What instead is interesting is what has to be of public domain to make the stories 'possible'.

Not only we've to assume that Ange disappeared (the jumping off a building and surviving it's probably not of public domain as even the tale make a point of saying that's not possible so it's likely a fantasy, a fear, a gossip or a metaphor to represent a change in Ange) but that, after Ange disappeared Amakusa had to disappear as well (being Amakusa an unknown guy this shouldn't cause problems) but also Kuwabata and, what's most important, Ange's aunt (with all her bodyguards).

Of course it's possible that while Ange became Kotobuki Yukari, Ange's aunt was killed by Okonogi's men without even involving Ange. Kuwabata might have ended up being involved or he could have felt sick while out with his ship and fallen on the sea where he died and his body was never recovered.

Probably only a small number of people in Prime would realize Kuwabata died and maybe no one would realize Amakusa died/disappeared... however Kasumi, being someone important

Still, to Ange's story in Ep 4 possible we need to have Kasumi disappearing/dying and there's no real confirmation of this so... well, I don't know. I like to think Sumadera Kasumi really disappeared but we know that the forgeries themselves didn't bother with 'sticking with prime' as Eva survives in EP 3 but not in Ep 4.

So maybe we aren't really supposed to know much about Prime, only what's useful to solve the gameboards. This however reduces Prime to some sort of subplot that exists only to give some minor info (that could have been inserted in other ways) and to deal with how hurtful is speculating on a tragedy and how everyone reacts differently to a tragedy (Ange chosing her own truth).

Considering however that Ange might not even be Prime Ange but only Piece Ange (and Ange often defines herself as a Piece in the witches and in Battler's game) the point is weak.
Real Prime Ange might have been a bullied kid who had fallen in love with Amakusa and transferred to USA without showing any interest in discovering the truth.

And while from one side it's interesting Umineko allows this kind of speculations again I wish for something 'more concrete' to work with.

However Ryukishi seemed to imply that the real 'ending' is the fantasy one so I guess that is what, according to him, appened to Ange. Or not?

Anyone has a better idea?
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Old 2013-01-13, 20:10   Link #31655
GreyZone
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Well... It is very unlikely for someone to jump from a 5 (or what was it again?) story building and not even being injured.

I guess the "magic ending" shows a very plausible outcome of that scene. If that was fake too, then... we would only have the "public known premise" and some "bits of the conclusion" and "there was an accident/a bomb". This few information would not be nearly enough to find "the truth", or it would even be as good as impossible to reach.

If the Epilogue shows the "prime" world, then we at least have a solid conclusion that we can BASE our theories on.
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Old 2013-01-14, 05:14   Link #31656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Not sure what you mean here. If you meant that I'm contradicting myself:
Not necessarily, you wouldn't misidentify Kinzo for someone else here or the other way around.
Well, apparently his corpse is unrecognizable enough that people could plausibly claim that it may not be him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Umineko has, as Bern hinted, a lot of wordplays so Battler could have either lied or, as absurd as it might sound, really seen Kinzo. Since we already know that he is long gone the only valid way would be having seen his corpse.
Thinking a dead Kinzo is an alive Kinzo is very likely the loophole of this red, just as the loophole of Natsuhi's red is that Shanon could have told anyone just because she felt like it.

So a dead Kinzo moving around, by whatever means, is pretty much the loophole of the red about him.
Honestly, I'm not sure that this theory of yours is worth my time, but let me explain why I reject it:
  • Why would Yasu, or whoever, even do that?
  • If Battler thought he saw a live Kinzo, why didn't he mention it? A live sighting of him would be extremely relevant later on when they were in his study.
  • If Battler thought his vision of Kinzo was of a live Kinzo, how can he know where Kinzo's corpse is? He doesn't even think he's dead!
  • Even if Battler did know or learn that Kinzo was dead, still how does Battler know where the corpse is?
  • Apparently his corpse is unrecognizable enough that people could plausibly claim that it's not him.
  • Corpses are heavy. Dragging it out into the rain would not be easy. Puppeteering it would be even harder. And puppeteering it in such a way as to not personally be seen would be yet harder.
  • How come Erika never saw Kinzo, only Battler? How can the puppeteer count on this?
  • How come Battler didn't chase after his grandfather? How can the puppeteer count on this?
  • How come Battler ignored Erika asking for where Kinzo was when he saw him? How can the puppeteer count on this?
  • Why does the puppeteer think that puppeteering a year-old corpse is the best way to make an appearance of Kinzo, instead of simply disguising themselves as him?
  • Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him!
The list goes on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Why did Erika put duct tape on three rooms? Because she wanted to trap Battler in a logic error?

Heck... look how BATTLER handled Ep6. Why did Shkanon switch places with Battler on the gameboard... because... he (the game master) was... trapped in a logic error?
Forget the duct tape shenanigans, Erika murdered 5 people for that logic error!

Also, something else LyricalAura pointed out to KnownNoMore a while back (since KnM seemed to think that EP6 should be completely explainable, even in terms of motives): Where did the tools for the bathroom trap come from? They must have been inside the guest room when Erika sealed it, but why would they be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
I just finished watching anime Banquet, and... EVA never confirms *anyones* death in red, except Nanjo's. She just goes on to confirm the location of the survivors. Beato did confirm 1st Twilight and 2nd twilight, but twilights 4-8 were never confirmed. I was kind of dissapointed, because Battler could have came up with a Natsuhi Culprit Theory just with that.
IIRC, in the anime, instead of listing 15 people by name as dead, she simply said "everyone else is dead". I imagine it was to save time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's no reason to believe that the meta is part of the Forgeries in my mind. I think the "Reader Theory" angle accounts for it better. Basically, there are two forgeries called End and Dawn, but we didn't get to read most of them. Instead, we read part of End up to about the Second Twilight and Dawn right up to the point where Erika discovers the letter outside the guesthouse. And we may or may not have gotten unfiltered versions of those narratives even so (honestly, I would suspect all the episodes make small alterations to the Forgeries as they were written in-universe).

I think it's possible to believe in an orthodox version of Dawn. Just remove all the meta-commentary and it basically works like it's presented:
  • Erika shows up and makes an annoyance of herself.
  • The four mothers, Maria, and Battler are "killed" in closed rooms.
  • Erika begins to investigate, first by separating the survivors into rooms at the guesthouse.
  • Erika discovers a letter informing her that Battler's body has disappeared.
The Forgery would then probably continue from there. Or perhaps it doesn't, and the draft of Dawn never gets that far before Touya and Ikuko start debating and discussing it, argue the "Logic Error" as a problem with the narrative, and shelve it. Or perhaps it was just to prove a point.

The point is a meta-narrative isn't a necessary component of the board narrative itself, even in "interrupted" narratives like ep5-6. Now, when you look at Requiem and Twilight, that might change somewhat. However, we know from ep6 that works called End and Dawn exist in some fashion, even if just in "Hachijou Tohya"'s collection of works (i.e. it's a Forgery the Hachijous were working on but never finished if it wasn't publicly released).
In EP6, Ange says, about Itouikuko Reigonamu: "In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story." Which more or less confirms what you are saying. However, about Dawn, in the credits of EP6 it says Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva, Maria, Kyrie, and Battler died in the first twilight, Kanon died in the second, and the others were all alive at the time of the game's suspension.

Kanon being listed as dead pretty much takes us past the discovery of the letter... somehow. I really wish we could see the story from the "public" perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler's intention appears to have been that he placed the letter. However, in the Logic Error reconstruction that isn't possible because Battler can't leave the room until Erika enters it, which is after she finds the letter.

Since the only other person who leaves is Kanon, I guess it has to have been Kanon. Honestly some part of me has always wondered if that wasn't a Logic Error unto itself.
Nah. Logic errors are never about implausible motives or bad writing, only things that are 100% impossible. The letter was meant to have been left by Battler in the first place anyway, so we know that the person to do it would have just been whoever is most convenient to the game master. And once we realize that, it doesn't matter who did it, as long as it's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
To be fair, the meta-world's mechanics have never, ever been at all consistent between episodes. I've never really liked how people jump on that one inconsistency as evidence for Genius Battler theory.

Though I've talked about this before and I know most people here are pretty convinced of that theory, I don't think I'll ever really buy it. Battler just messing up seems much more in-character considering his portrayal up until that point, as far as I'm concerned.
I support Genius Battler, and not for that reason at all (I actually find that reason just as bogus as you do). Just remember that BATTLER's viewpoint in EP6 had to be made unreliable because he had learned the truth (Featherine said so). What else could BATTLER's unreliable viewpoint be hiding from us, if not that he's actually Genius Batter?

And while I understand your point that it's in Battler's character to be incompetent, he was anything but at the end of EP5. It's not implausible at all to suppose he stayed that way through EP6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
You see, when I read EP7, I thought that Dawn was the tale BATTLER buried Beato with, but with EP8, I started thinking that Dawn and that book are different.
At first I thought it was Requiem itself, but someone told me that in the manga the book placed in the coffin is labeled Dawn.

Although my theory on both the Umineko anime and the manga is that Ryukishi let their artists and scriptwriters do them according to their own interpretation, at least to a certain extent. It'd be kind of like practicing Reader Theory in the real world.

...In fact, I'd have a hard time imagining that Ryukishi didn't do it that way. Umineko is about the very concept of presenting interpretations, is it not?

------------------------------------

I have some comments to add to the discussion regarding the alternate 1998 timelines and such, but I'm tired right now. I will add them later, probably.
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Old 2013-01-14, 09:58   Link #31657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Nah. Logic errors are never about implausible motives or bad writing, only things that are 100% impossible. The letter was meant to have been left by Battler in the first place anyway, so we know that the person to do it would have just been whoever is most convenient to the game master. And once we realize that, it doesn't matter who did it, as long as it's possible.
The question is more, who has the letter? Is Battler the only person who could have it at that point, or could it nebulously be in the hands of anyone in on things? Could it have been left ahead of time? That sort of thing.

If the letter can only be placed by Battler, that's a problem. Erika never went into the logistics of where the letter came from though, at least in the sense of "who had it in their possession last." Battler can get around that by just saying the letter was not on his person, but his intent appears to have been that it was. That's a relatively easy detail to retroactively change, but it makes me wonder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I support Genius Battler, and not for that reason at all (I actually find that reason just as bogus as you do). Just remember that BATTLER's viewpoint in EP6 had to be made unreliable because he had learned the truth (Featherine said so). What else could BATTLER's unreliable viewpoint be hiding from us, if not that he's actually Genius Batter?

And while I understand your point that it's in Battler's character to be incompetent, he was anything but at the end of EP5. It's not implausible at all to suppose he stayed that way through EP6.
There's also his ep8 game in which Battler claims that he loses strategically in order to win in the end, which in my mind all but confirms it because:
  • In BATTLER's game people are nearly interchangeable with their meta-selves, and Battler especially speaks as BATTLER multiple times; and
  • It's very explicitly BATTLER's game alone and he does a lot of things that are for his own benefit and satisfaction, even as he does things for Ange; and
  • Battler's behavior in ep8 betrays a fair degree of subtlety, something he always had to some extent but usually didn't lean on.
So we have a BATTLER creating a game who is known to be capable of being subtle, sometimes has characters speak for their meta-selves and not their game selves, and makes a comment about losing on purpose and not always bluffing when he appears to be bluffing. I don't really see much point for him saying that unless it actually is meant to be taken as a hint to something else, plus it seems like that's one of his operating strategies at times in Twilight too.

Alternately it's all in Ange's head and she happens to believe in Genius Battler also. And Ange is never wrong, except all the times where she is.
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Old 2013-01-14, 10:11   Link #31658
GreyZone
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Well i just remembered something: The last scene we see of End's Rokkenjima is Battler saying "it is useless... it's all useless". The funny thing is, if I remember correctly, that he says this at the end of the regular Episode, but before the first tea party. Then the narrative goes on in the "cathedral", without anyone mentioning about what happened on the Rokkenjima side after that.

So could we say that the "court of illusions" was just a metaphor for what was happening in the parlor at the same time? Because then the story would continue by Natsuhi's innocence to be proven and then... well i guess they all die, right? It could go like this:

Erika shows evidence of Natsuhi's guilt
"Shanon" goes off somewhere to commit suicide
Battler remembers promise to "Shanon" (or remembers it earlier but only now is ready to talk about it) and redeems Natsuhi
It is too late to stop the bomb, because "Shanon" is dead already and Genji doesn't say a word about it
Bomb explodes and everyone dies (except Eva and/or Battler who could accidently be going through the tunnels at that time)


This is of course only EP5's Rokkenjima and is NOT supposed to be an attempt at speculating about RokkenjimaPrime
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Old 2013-01-14, 15:41   Link #31659
tantei okuoku
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I just finished episode 7 and was very repeatedly told to post my theory on here (no spoilers from episode 8, hane, or tsubasa please).

My theory is that kyrie is the mastermind behind everything. Asumu switched her baby with her stillborn baby. that set up her motive for killing the family that got catalyzed by yasu/Shannon actions. Shannon said that if it was one year or before or after then it wouldn't have been as much. this is because she chose that year to select the next head in the same way she was chosen. that is why no one died in the first game or for most of the second game. the second game rosa acted as a accomplice, while the third game had eva acted as a accomplice. the fourth game was kyrie and Jessica

The first game did not have anyone solve the epitaph so their was no crime but it was maria and Hideyoshi who served as accomplices

When should I read our confession, tsubasa, and hane?

Last edited by tantei okuoku; 2013-01-14 at 17:06.
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Old 2013-01-14, 17:07   Link #31660
Kealym
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Ugh, there's been so much discussion lately I can't even possibly respond to everything I'd wanted to, so I'll just hop in on a recent topic.

Regarding Prime, and fragments and multiverses ... well, I think they "exist", personally... but Umineko is almost certainly concerned with the events of a single one of those worlds - one where Rokkenjima went boom, and Ange grew up in the care of Eva, the only survivor.

Regarding the letter in EP6, well ... um, well, it depends on when, exactly, Erika committed all that murder, right? Battler certainly couldn't have placed it, even if that was his original plan... actually, to be honest, I think the murders were something Bern and Erika kept as their "Plan B" for capturing Battler, since they seemed pretty genuinely surprised when Battler successfully removed his corpse from the room in the first place.

Or, well ... if we already have Kanon hopping out of 2nd story windows to randomly trade places with dead people, we can certainly say he dropped the letter off on his way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tantei okuoku View Post
I just finished episode 7 and was very repeatedly told to post my theory on here (no spoilers from episode 8, hane, or tsubasa please).
By "here", you mean this board, or this thread, specifically? Because this thread is pretty much where every spoiler ever can be thrown into the dicussion.

You may want to post in the Episode 7 topic to discuss instead, so you don't accidentally read something you don't want to. Also, you should totes read Ep 8.
About Tsubasa and Hane, well, my understanding is that they are a compilation of various Extra TIPS, right? You could read them more or less whenever you want, though of course they'll refer to the story as per when they were written - "Game Master Battler", for example, obviously takes place right after the events of End.

Hm, I would save Our Confessions for after you've finished EP8, and had a little bit of time to gather your thoughts on it.
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