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Old 2013-01-10, 09:25   Link #221
Sheba
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You guys may not care about the leads but the genre would be much less reviled if the male leads were more like Tomoya Okazaki (who went through SUBSTANTIAL development), Rintarou Okabe or Takeru Shirogane (who's ordeal take its full measure when you play the full Muv Luv trilogy).

Just because viewers are males, it doesn't mean that we can't enjoy an interesting male lead in a harem anime where the harem girls are not just characters but also elements of the lead's soul searching, quest for happiness, etc...
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Old 2013-01-10, 09:47   Link #222
Snuffle
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Like I said, there are exceptions. Clannad was a deep story once After Story kicked in, so of course the lead needs to be interesting. I have not played the Muv-Luv games, but the anime was about the war, not the girls surrounding the the male MC, another exception.

Just saying "harem" is a little too broad since there are different levels and types of it.

A story driven show with a harem is usually like this:
- male MC has a harem, but the focus is the story. The lead is most likely interesting in some way.
A male MC with a harem for the purpose of antics I find to be like this:
- male MC has a harem, girls do things out of standard behavior for entertainment (ecchi).

Of course there are more and can be combined with each other, I just can't think of any atm. But it depends what kind of harem are we talking about here. A show that has the sole purpose of showing off the male MC's harem? Or a show that is story driven that just so happens to have a harem?

(BTW your avatar scares me )
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Old 2013-01-10, 10:04   Link #223
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffle View Post
Just saying "harem" is a little too broad since there are different levels and types of it.

A story driven show with a harem is usually like this:
- male MC has a harem, but the focus is the story. The lead is most likely interesting in some way.
A male MC with a harem for the purpose of antics I find to be like this:
- male MC has a harem, girls do things out of standard behavior for entertainment (ecchi).
Yes, this was touched on earlier, and I think it's a pretty major distinction, as we're having two separate conversations. It's really the difference between a romantic comedy and a drama (not in the "melodrama" sense).

As I said before, anime based on visual novels are very rarely romantic comedies (though they may contain some comedy) and probably shouldn't be called "harem anime". They're usually only "harem" in part due to linear anime story re-construction (where the original game typically had multiple mutually-exclusive romantic routes). Most of the examples of "good male leads" that have been produced are from visual novels.

Light novels go both ways on the "romantic comedy" scale, depending in large part on the target demographic.

It's probably important to point out again that, in your standard shounen romantic comedy (Love Hina, Ichigo 100%, To Love-Ru, etc.), the male being "donkan" (clueless, particularly when it comes to detecting the feelings of those around him) is part of the comedy routine.
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Old 2013-01-10, 13:31   Link #224
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Most of the time people are expecting too much from harems. It's goofy to see the male lead fail and fall on his face because he's so oblivious.
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Old 2013-01-10, 21:05   Link #225
judasmartel
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Well, for someone who has watched one too many romcoms, donkan MC's sure get old really fast.
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Old 2013-01-10, 21:38   Link #226
hyl
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Well, for someone who has watched one too many romcoms, donkan MC's sure get old really fast.
A healthy tip then, don't start watching harem romcom animes. It's almost a standard that the harem protagnoist is donkan, just like that the protagonist in action based VN's are usually the cool types
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Old 2013-01-10, 22:14   Link #227
judasmartel
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I didn't refer to myself in that post. However, I don't believe action stuff is the only domain of cool MC's. Badass Pacifist is my sort of thing. I'm actually pretty tired of overpowered MC's right now, unlike when I was younger. There's a reason I hate Kirito's guts.
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Old 2013-01-10, 22:35   Link #228
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I didn't refer to myself in that post. However, I don't believe action stuff is the only domain of cool MC's. Badass Pacifist is my sort of thing. I'm actually pretty tired of overpowered MC's right now, unlike when I was younger. There's a reason I hate Kirito's guts.
Can you give an example? If you ask me the words "badass" and "pacifist" can't really coincide with one another.

And I don't really find Kirito that impressive either BTW, he has his moments of awesome, but all his strength is just data values. There's no real training behind it at all.
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Old 2013-01-10, 22:38   Link #229
ReaperxKingx
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Can you give an example? If you ask me the words "badass" and "pacifist" can't really coincide with one another.

And I don't really find Kirito that impressive either BTW, he has his moments of awesome, but all his strength is just data values. There's no real training behind it at all.
An example of a pacifist badass protagonist in the harem genre is Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou.
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Old 2013-01-10, 22:38   Link #230
judasmartel
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Here you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
And I don't really find Kirito that impressive either BTW, he has his moments of awesome, but all his strength is just data values. There's no real training behind it at all.
Well, at least there IS training behind it. Continously playing VR games for 2 years really does wonders.
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Old 2013-01-10, 22:55   Link #231
SilverSyko
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Hmmm, personally the only one I agree with from that list is Yugi. All of the others I don't really consider badass. (Or don't know who they are.) You proved your point though I suppose.

Quote:
Well, at least there IS training behind it. Continously playing VR games for 2 years really does wonders.
For his skill at said games sure. Doesn't do his own physical power and ability any good though.
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Old 2013-01-10, 23:00   Link #232
judasmartel
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If VR skills and reflexes can be brought out into real life, he might have half the chance of being a martial artist.

But well, let's not dwell too much into that.
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Old 2013-01-11, 21:50   Link #233
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Now this is one thing I've always struggled with in the anime community, these pointless labels everyone seems dedicated to throwing around without a moment's notice.

I do not consider Clanaad a harem. Is it technically? Sure, but just because it features more than a couple of female leads does not make it a harem in the toxic, generalized sense that anime fans apply the term to.

Tomoya Okazaki is a good lead because he's featured in a good story. Don't think of Clanaad as a harem and you'll see that this isn't an odd or special occurrence. You guys use these labels way too loosely...
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Old 2013-01-12, 04:16   Link #234
Traece
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Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
An example of a pacifist badass protagonist in the harem genre is Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou.
I'm actually glad that someone mentioned Demon King Daimao. I casually went through that on Netflix and I actually really liked the main character. It was such a refreshing feeling to watch an anime where the protagonist would normally have been simple-minded and borderline incapable. Instead the MC was intelligent and mature, and capable of handling his situation with tact. It certainly wasn't the best anime, but I give it a lot of credit for having some good characters. The harem was a bit small for supporting cast, but it still fits well enough.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:25   Link #235
Ichuki
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I guess it is either the male lead is a POV for the audience or the harem series makers want the audience to pay attention to the girls more.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:31   Link #236
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I think the best harem is Clannad.

The male lead was cool but a lot of downsides. The girls made him or help him to be what he becomes later on. The best part is choosing one among them to be his only one. I was deep touch when..

Spoiler for Clannad Climax:
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:36   Link #237
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Ichuki View Post
I guess it is either the male lead is a POV for the audience or the harem series makers want the audience to pay attention to the girls more.
And what's wrong with paying attention to the girls? While I can understand somewhat why people try to get a sense of the lead's perspective, even if the series has almost no major male characters (like Yuru Yuri), people are still trying to find a male perspective to latch onto. Nine times out of ten, female characters are just as human as anybody else, but it seems like the Western audience doesn't want to focus on their perspective. The fandom ends up reinforcing its own stereotypes.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:42   Link #238
Ichuki
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
And what's wrong with paying attention to the girls? While I can understand somewhat why people try to get a sense of the lead's perspective, even if the series has almost no major male characters (like Yuru Yuri), people are still trying to find a male perspective to latch onto. Nine times out of ten, female characters are just as human as anybody else, but it seems like the Western audience doesn't want to focus on their perspective. The fandom ends up reinforcing its own stereotypes.
There's nothing wrong with that it's just how I felt when I see a harem or harem like series when the male lead has a rather flat personality compared to the girls.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:33   Link #239
hyl
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I think the best harem is Clannad.

The male lead was cool but a lot of downsides. The girls made him or help him to be what he becomes later on. The best part is choosing one among them to be his only one. I was deep touch when..

Spoiler for Clannad Climax:
I disagree that clannad is the best harem, for the same reasons posted earlier by Relentlessflame why those kind of stories are not harem stories in the first place

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
None of these are "harem anime", though. They are stories with a male lead character and multiple female characters that could arguably be classed as love interests... but the show doesn't revolve the shounen romance fixation of "who's he going to choose?!" and exist to stretch out that decision/realization for the duration of the show. In fact, in all of these stories (at least the anime adaptations), the character is on a pretty straight line towards the ending from the start and any other "romantic interests" presented are basically side-stories. And in those sorts of cases, it's much easier to build strong characterization for the male lead because you're following a fixed development path where the romantic counterpart is going to inevitably form a part.

At least in my books, visual novel anime are not harem anime (unless it was actually a "harem visual novel", which do exist but are rarely adapted for mainstream TV anime).
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Old 2013-01-13, 00:27   Link #240
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I disagree that clannad is the best harem, for the same reasons posted earlier by Relentlessflame why those kind of stories are not harem stories in the first place
Ok now... What makes Clannad not a harem? Since there is no harem end in the game? or its just because there are multiple routes where he can end up with one of the other girls. Clannad AS is an exception since we know who he ends up with.

Anyway, same question applies to Koicho and Da Capo... or have a thread so that it could be well explain...
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