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Old 2013-01-13, 00:38   Link #181
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I see that quite a portion of the latest posts are moved to its own thread.

So...to make this thread go back to its intended topic, I think I’ll ask this:
What do you think of the Aoi Tohsaka’s bouncing boobs when Kariya Matou was choking her in the church (in Fate/Zero)? Does that one fits “sexual fanservice in a serious action scene”? (The "action" here being the attempted murder (is that what it’s called?) by Kariya). If it is, then what do you think about it?
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Old 2013-01-13, 00:48   Link #182
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"Jiggle physics" is something conceived by fans. The scene can be as realistic as humanly possible for an anime but that won't stop fans from labeling it as fanservice.
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Old 2013-01-13, 00:56   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Write View Post
"Jiggle physics" is something conceived by fans. The scene can be as realistic as humanly possible for an anime but that won't stop fans from labeling it as fanservice.
It's not only about the "bouncing boobs", but also the fact that the entire screen was pretty much focused on it even though it only happened in a flash.

Speaking of it, did you actually know the scene that I'm talking about? I may have to add that I'm asking for those who have seen that scene personally, not just relying on my description.
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Old 2013-01-13, 02:29   Link #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It's not only about the "bouncing boobs", but also the fact that the entire screen was pretty much focused on it even though it only happened in a flash.

Speaking of it, did you actually know the scene that I'm talking about? I may have to add that I'm asking for those who have seen that scene personally, not just relying on my description.
I have seen the scene, yes.
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Old 2013-01-13, 03:15   Link #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Write View Post
I have seen the scene, yes.
And? According to you, does it fit or not based on my original question? I didn’t get it the first time around since your reply kinda ambiguous between “yes” or “no”.
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Old 2013-01-13, 03:22   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
And? According to you, does it fit or not based on my original question? I didn’t get it the first time around since your reply kinda ambiguous between “yes” or “no”.
I vaguely replied to the question you were presenting so don't take it as being in context with the specific scene you used in our example. My fault, sorry.
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Old 2013-01-13, 04:36   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And besides, there's just no need of it. Isn't there enough time in non-action scenes for this stuff?
No, it's never enough. Breasts will jiggle, asses will get male gazed, legs will get spread in suggestive ways, and you will see yuri that doesn't exist but does because hey, women touched each other. Bras and panties and side boobs and - *Solace collapses after foaming at the mouth* -

Seriously though. I once argued in a Madoka thread that in order to enjoy something, sometimes that requires ignoring the blatantly obvious issues with how things are presented. In other words, sometimes suspension of disbelief means accepting that it is stupid and going along with it anyway.

Now don't get me wrong, I find that fanservice in general has approached some nuclear levels of stupid over the last few years. No, breasts that large are not sexy, nor are they even remotely comfortable for women. Most women never wear clothing that revealing in the situations they are portrayed in, nor do the winds happen to blow so perfectly that panty shots are inevitable. And I hate to break it to the average lolicon, but very few small framed females have those kind of curves - minus the washboard chest, of course.

But in the world of fantasy, this is what people want to indulge in. People buy the uncensored blue ray so the god rays can show you the nipples of your favorite characters. You know, the nipples every mammal on the planet has. Ass and crotch shots get lingering and oddly specific camera angles because clearly whatever else is happening on the screen just isn't engaging enough. And above all, just like every woman apparently swoons over tall dark and bishounen, every male seems to think breasts are either A or triple E and can perform feats that defy the laws of physics. Because its fantasy.

To put it another way, this is kind of like watching a live action movie with a famous actor. Your mind says "Hey, this is Will Smith, idiot" and yet you are buying the bullshit that for two hours it's not Will Smith, but Agent J from Men in Black. Or you don't buy it, you see Will Smith no matter what. Or you do buy it, and suddenly Shatner no longer exists, you only see Kirk, and he flips out at conventions so famously that someone makes the movie Galaxy Quest.

Everyone has different levels of bullshit detection. Most of us just choose to go along with it, for the sake of escapism. In other words:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I watched it for the plot.
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Old 2013-01-13, 04:46   Link #188
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To talk about the fanservice in Vividred, I can't help but feel that most of the service in it have been exploitative and "calculated" to give matter to doujinshika. You have the lolis, you have the lesbian undertones and you have the ass shots. As if there was a huge neon sign that read, "FORGET THAT DEMON QUEEN SHOW! HERE IS YOUR FODDER TO DOUJINS!".

Almost in the same way Kyoto Animation have been constantly accused of running the meme machine.

That's how I felt about the service in Vividred. I guess that's part of the reason why some people felt put off by it. That whole "calculated" vibe or the "checklit mentality".
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Old 2013-01-13, 04:50   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I watched it for the plot.
Seriously? But the fan service follows your interest, right? coz that's the way I judge anime like same as this''

>plot
> fanservice
> animation
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:04   Link #190
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Seriously? But the fan service follows your interest, right? coz that's the way I judge anime like same as this''

>plot
> fanservice
> animation
Actually, I did watch HotD for the plot. I even tried to discuss some of it in the thread, but no one else wanted to, because for everyone else it was all about the fanservice. Hard to blame them when breasts defy physics by turning into Neo from the Matrix.
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:10   Link #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Actually, I did watch HotD for the plot. I even tried to discuss some of it in the thread, but no one else wanted to, because for everyone else it was all about the fanservice. Hard to blame them when breasts defy physics by turning into Neo from the Matrix.
But hey, that part is worth worshipping...

The director's a genius coz I felt these emotions:



at the same time during that scene...

About the plot.... yeah.. cliffhanger....
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:15   Link #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Actually, I did watch HotD for the plot. I even tried to discuss some of it in the thread, but no one else wanted to, because for everyone else it was all about the fanservice. Hard to blame them when breasts defy physics by turning into Neo from the Matrix.
IIRC, not only the fanservice but also Zombie Apocalypse Survival talk, waifu talk and how to kill the smug guy horribly.
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:25   Link #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Actually, I did watch HotD for the plot. I even tried to discuss some of it in the thread, but no one else wanted to, because for everyone else it was all about the fanservice. Hard to blame them when breasts defy physics by turning into Neo from the Matrix.
But at one time, they were interested in the "plot". Can you guess when was that? ...Correct! ...That episode where Takashi and Saeko spent the night together at the shrine!
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Old 2013-01-13, 05:38   Link #194
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Seriously? But the fan service follows your interest, right? coz that's the way I judge anime like same as this''

>plot
> fanservice
> animation
Genji being Genji I guess, that was sarcasm on his part and it's a widely known one that "plot" is often used to jokingly/sarcastically refer to fanservice.
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Old 2013-01-13, 07:23   Link #195
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And you guys never mentioned about the backstory.
I'm disappointed in you guys.
No one must forget about the backstory in Vivid Red Operation.
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Old 2013-01-13, 07:25   Link #196
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I think your average fan paid more attention to the back part.
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Old 2013-01-13, 08:07   Link #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Seriously though. I once argued in a Madoka thread that in order to enjoy something, sometimes that requires ignoring the blatantly obvious issues with how things are presented. In other words, sometimes suspension of disbelief means accepting that it is stupid and going along with it anyway.
I somewhat disagree. You can enjoy something, and still recognize the elements in it that you consider flaws. Madoka Magica is one of my five favorite anime shows of all-time. I don't consider it downright flawless, though. I don't have to view something as perfect in order to enjoy it. And my impression is that most people are the same way. Which is why I'm frequently surprised at the response I'll get when I write a post that is primarily complimentary of a show, with a relatively short criticism or two added on. In fact, this post here was ultimately the catalyst for this entire thread.

Most of what I wrote there was complimentary of VRO. Highly complimentary, in fact. Yet what ended up getting focused on?

And the criticisms I wrote there were clearly presented as personal opinions. It's not like I was trying to pass them off as objective facts.

"I'm not a fan of the fanservice" and "This show would be much better without it, imo." imo being short for "in my opinion."

I never used a term as harsh as "trash". I never made any pretense about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. So why did it become such a big deal?

I don't hate fanservice. In some cases, I like fanservice (yes, my current avatar makes that clear ). But I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where its apparently beyond criticism. Any element of any anime show is open to criticism, imo. And any element of any anime show is also open to compliment. In both cases, it's the reasoning behind the criticism or compliment that is most important, imo.


Now, in fairness to you, some elements are so prevalent in a show, that yes, whether or not a person can roll with them will determine if they can like the show.


Quote:
Now don't get me wrong, I find that fanservice in general has approached some nuclear levels of stupid over the last few years. No, breasts that large are not sexy, nor are they even remotely comfortable for women. Most women never wear clothing that revealing in the situations they are portrayed in, nor do the winds happen to blow so perfectly that panty shots are inevitable. And I hate to break it to the average lolicon, but very few small framed females have those kind of curves - minus the washboard chest, of course.
All very fair points, imo. And so if an anime uses fanservice in one of these ways, that's open to criticism. I don't think that viewers should be expected to ignore bad execution of fanservice (at least as some viewers perceive it) any more than viewers should be expected to ignore bad execution of any other element in a show.


Quote:
But in the world of fantasy, this is what people want to indulge in.
Some do. Some don't. Those who don't have just as much right to their opinion as those that do. Personally, I'd prefer to see more full-bodied voluptuous women/teenage girls in anime. That's the look that I prefer. Not all men have the exact same taste in women, so I find it odd that all male anime viewers are expected to have the same taste in fanservice.


Quote:
People buy the uncensored blue ray so the god rays can show you the nipples of your favorite characters.
Actually, many of the ecchi-based anime shows that relied on censorship to drive up DVD/Blu-Ray sales ended up bombing anyway. This isn't necessarily as popular as people tend to think it is. Which is another reason why I don't think this type of content should be given special treatment. The argument seems to be "This is what otakus want, so we must at least tolerate it".

Is it what otakus want? Some, yes, but not necessarily a majority. Madoka Magica did not have any pantsu shots, or anything on the level of a Strike Witches ass shot, and PMMM sold perfectly well. K-On! is another high-selling anime show, and it's amongst the cleanest TV shows I've ever seen. Heck, KyoAni shows in general tend to be (in)famously clean, and they tend to sell like hotcakes.

So the actual objective evidence that fanservice is needed to drive this industry is questionable at best. So, again, I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where it's beyond criticism. Maybe it should be if 80% or more of the top-selling anime shows were sexual fanservice-driven. But they're not, due to Madoka Magica, AnoHana, SAO, Fate/Zero, and numerous KyoAni shows.

Now, just to be clear, I definitely think that fanservice has a place in anime. I honestly wouldn't want fanservice to go away entirely. In some cases, it can add a nice spice to a show. But fanservice is an element that can be used well, or used poorly, just like any other element.


Quote:
Ass and crotch shots get lingering and oddly specific camera angles because clearly whatever else is happening on the screen just isn't engaging enough.
You're right in that such shots imply that whatever else is happening on the screen just isn't engaging enough.

So if "what else is happening on screen" is an action scene that I was finding perfectly engaging until the pervy camera angles started, then naturally I'm not going to be fond of this fanservice that implicitly states "What are you focusing on that dull action scene for? This is what you really want, amirite? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*"

Well, no, that isn't what I really want. I really did want the action scene. Just like you really did want the plot in HotD. And there's nothing wrong with us expressing those viewpoints.
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Old 2013-01-13, 09:14   Link #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I somewhat disagree. You can enjoy something, and still recognize the elements in it that you consider flaws. Madoka Magica is one of my five favorite anime shows of all-time. I don't consider it downright flawless, though. I don't have to view something as perfect in order to enjoy it. And my impression is that most people are the same way. Which is why I'm frequently surprised at the response I'll get when I write a post that is primarily complimentary of a show, with a relatively short criticism or two added on. In fact, this post here was ultimately the catalyst for this entire thread.

Most of what I wrote there was complimentary of VRO. Highly complimentary, in fact. Yet what ended up getting focused on?
Notice it's by a person with an interesting signature. Clearly of what you posted, that element of your post is what stuck due to what was already on his mind.

The thing about Madoka though is that it felt like a lot of the criticism tried too hard. I'm sure some of it was legit, in the sense of simply being unhappy with something in particular, but a lot of it felt like bandwagon hate. Some of it was "out of nowhere" type of opinion: wasn't there a thread about how someone didn't want to watch it because it was a female cast?

My point though was that I felt a lot of criticism crosses from opinion of like/dislike into "this or these elements really hurt my enjoyment". In that regard, the writing begins to feel less like a fan explaining his point of view, and more like a teardown for the sake of being nitpicky. Much like fans who get overly hyped for something only to rage when it doesn't (and probably could never) deliver, sometimes criticism seems unfair given all the positive you know the viewer had of it.

It's perfectly okay to say "Man, this was absolutely awful, but I enjoyed it". Unfortunately, as you point out, people tend to pick and choose what they want to read and respond to. That's hardly the fault of a poster regardless of how much they guard against it.

Quote:
And the criticisms I wrote there were clearly presented as personal opinions. It's not like I was trying to pass them off as objective facts.

"I'm not a fan of the fanservice" and "This show would be much better without it, imo." imo being short for "in my opinion."

I never used a term as harsh as "trash". I never made any pretense about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. So why did it become such a big deal?

I don't hate fanservice. In some cases, I like fanservice (yes, my current avatar makes that clear ). But I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where its apparently beyond criticism. Any element of any anime show is open to criticism, imo. And any element of any anime show is also open to compliment. In both cases, it's the reasoning behind the criticism or compliment that is most important, imo.
One thing I've learned is that if someone responds to something and you don't think it's a discussion worth diving into, ignore it. Or if you're good, deflect it into something else. Don't poke a snake with a stick, if you get my drift.

Quote:
Now, in fairness to you, some elements are so prevalent in a show, that yes, whether or not a person can roll with them will determine if they can like the show.
Absolutely. Perhaps I'm too forgiving. My primary motivation with most media is twofold. One, is it engaging to the topic I am interested in? And two, can it sustain that to the end?

I drop a lot of shows because they just don't interest me anymore. Most people are like that, honestly. They fade away quietly rather than complain. Complaining, to me, is often a sign of investment. You need passion to complain. So clearly something keeps you interested in a show besides the things you hate. In fact, you probably complain because of your enjoyment, not in spite of it.

For me, I just keep my expectations low. I'd rather be surprised by how good something is than sad or angry that it didn't hit some high bar I set for it. Maybe that's not a good thing, but as a foreign viewer I can't do much else. We get so little interaction with the industry because we aren't really their core market.

Quote:
All very fair points, imo. And so if an anime uses fanservice in one of these ways, that's open to criticism. I don't think that viewers should be expected to ignore bad execution of fanservice (at least as some viewers perceive it) any more than viewers should be expected to ignore bad execution of any other element in a show.
Everything should be on the table, definitely. But how one weighs criticism and praise should be noted as a reflection of what they seek from the show. Pros and cons. If sweet action scenes mean a few panty shots, I don't mind. I got action, others got panties. Win Win. But like you point out, it's something that can be criticized for poor execution.

Quote:
Some do. Some don't. Those who don't have just as much right to their opinion as those that do. Personally, I'd prefer to see more full-bodied voluptuous women/teenage girls in anime. That's the look that I prefer. Not all men have the exact same taste in women, so I find it odd that all male anime viewers are expected to have the same taste in fanservice.
I should have used more generalizing qualifiers. The point was that it is there because it sells, so studios milk it until it doesn't.

Quote:
Actually, many of the ecchi-based anime shows that relied on censorship to drive up DVD/Blu-Ray sales ended up bombing anyway. This isn't necessarily as popular as people tend to think it is. Which is another reason why I don't think this type of content should be given special treatment. The argument seems to be "This is what otakus want, so we must at least tolerate it".

Is it what otakus want? Some, yes, but not necessarily a majority.
Fair point about the censorship. I think its a tactic that the audience saw as a cheap gimmick, and considering the cost of dvd/br in Japan for anime, can't blame them for trying to be at least somewhat money smart.

I'm not sure what otakus want. Then again, I'm not sure what the industry wants either. This is probably a question for another topic though.

Quote:
Madoka Magica did not have any pantsu shots, or anything on the level of a Strike Witches ass shot, and PMMM sold perfectly well. K-On! is another high-selling anime show, and it's amongst the cleanest TV shows I've ever seen. Heck, KyoAni shows in general tend to be (in)famously clean, and they tend to sell like hotcakes.
Madoka didn't have pantsu shots but it did have implied yuri, a naked Madoka in the OP, sexy transformation scenes, and an ED of Madoka running while her clothes where stripped off and she was naked at the end. True, it wasn't in your face, but it was definitely there and definitely intended to help sell the product. K-On!, like a lot of KyoAni, is heavy on cute girls doing cute things. This reaches a lot of audiences, from "take it at face value" people to "I'm imagining naughty things" people. Again, the former is just as important as the latter for marketing. But definitely not Queen's Blade level, which is blatantly sold on sex appeal, I'll give you that.

Quote:
So the actual objective evidence that fanservice is needed to drive this industry is questionable at best. So, again, I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where it's beyond criticism. Maybe it should be if 80% or more of the top-selling anime shows were sexual fanservice-driven. But they're not, due to Madoka Magica, AnoHana, SAO, Fate/Zero, and numerous KyoAni shows.

Now, just to be clear, I definitely think that fanservice has a place in anime. I honestly wouldn't want fanservice to go away entirely. In some cases, it can add a nice spice to a show. But fanservice is an element that can be used well, or used poorly, just like any other element.
Fanservice was never needed to drive the industry. But that's like saying first person shooters aren't need to drive the video game industry. People don't completely reject them, and buy enough to generate sales, so studios see money in it and include it because it does command an audience.

Madoka aside, Fate/Zero rode on a popular multi-facted franchise backed by Gen's hyped writing (in no part thanks to Madoka, even though it was written before). AnoHana definitely used fanservice tropes to sell itself, even if it wasn't all about fanservice. And KyoAni made Endless Eight and survived. They're at the "Stephen King could write a horror story about a lamp and make millions" level of strength.

Open to criticism, always. But its there because the people making it think the audience likes it. True or not, that at least needs to be accepted.

Quote:
You're right in that such shots imply that whatever else is happening on the screen just isn't engaging enough.

So if "what else is happening on screen" is an action scene that I was finding perfectly engaging until the pervy camera angles started, then naturally I'm not going to be fond of this fanservice that implicitly states "What are you focusing on that dull action scene for? This is what you really want, amirite? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*"

Well, no, that isn't what I really want. I really did want the action scene. Just like you really did want the plot in HotD. And there's nothing wrong with us expressing those viewpoints.
No disagreement there. However, sometimes you take what you can get and hope the next thing on the horizon caters to your desires more specifically.
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Old 2013-01-13, 09:53   Link #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Madoka didn't have pantsu shots but it did have implied yuri, a naked Madoka in the OP, sexy transformation scenes,
These are all of the Madoka Magica transformation scenes featured in the original anime. The fact you can fit the works of them into less than 3 minutes of video is telling in and of itself.



If anything, I felt that SHAFT was too self-restrained here. 80s kids cartoon character He-Man had a more elaborate transformation scene than what Homura or Madoka did.

Here's one case where I would have welcomed a bit more fanservice, not less.


This is a side-issue, of course, but since your take on the PMMM transformation scenes was almost the opposite of mine, I wanted to put my take on it out there.


I don't have many qualms with the rest of what you wrote. A couple nitpicks at most, but nothing really worth getting into. On the whole, I'm mostly in agreement with you. Good post.
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Old 2013-01-13, 11:28   Link #200
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Heh. Calling something "just your opinion" is not a license to dismiss the content of the post. We can talk about our subjective experiences objectively.

Anyway, I was writing a long post but I noticed that relentlessflame had already summed up the thread, as always.


I can't see how just the action scenes could be separated from the general tone of the show. I mean, they could be separeted, but what would be gained by doing that?

That's why trying to establish the tone of the show is very important. Just what kind of show is this? What should I expect?

I really can't picture Rainbow or Shigurui having Strike Witches-esque fanservice. That would absolutely break the immersion.

I think the aforementioned shows are "serious" shows. Or rather, to use a somewhat notorious term, they are "mature" shows. In my view, crotch shots and blatant fanservice have no place in a serious work of art. So my thinking is somewhat binary: it's either/or.

Now, is all fanservice a conceptual flaw? I don't think so. I think there is a "scale": on one end we have SW ass shots and on the other we have, for example, the Hitagi shower scene in Bakemonogatari. I would argue that calling the shower scene in Bakemonogatari "fanservice" is doing a disservice to the whole scene; it's much more than just a naked 2-D model taking a shower. It establishes Hitagi's character and provides new insight into the relationship between Araragi and Hitagi.
An even better example might be the opening of Elfen Lied where there's a naked woman walking around casually murdering people -- it's far more explicit than Strike Witches, but there are no extreme close-up male-gaze shots of jiggling boobs or a girl's bum filling the screen, which combined with the grisly nature of the scene negates any titillation a mentally stable person could derive from the sequence.
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