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Old 2013-01-13, 15:44   Link #201
Dahak86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Is it what otakus want? Some, yes, but not necessarily a majority. Madoka Magica did not have any pantsu shots, or anything on the level of a Strike Witches ass shot, and PMMM sold perfectly well. K-On! is another high-selling anime show, and it's amongst the cleanest TV shows I've ever seen. Heck, KyoAni shows in general tend to be (in)famously clean, and they tend to sell like hotcakes.
Let's not forget that this kind of shows also usually tend to appeal to a wider demographic than your average run-of-the-mill harem-ecchi anime, including lots of girls/women too. Which can in part help explain their massive popularity/sales.
Then there's the big moe-ota crowd...

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That's the same as saying that the primary purpose of an eroge is arousal because it always has sex scenes in it,
No, that would be more like saying: that whenever an ero-scene comes up in an eroge, it's meant for arousal.
Which isn't all that surprising after all, given how it's supposed to be some sort of "prize" for all the "hard-work" you had to go through up to that point.
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Old 2013-01-13, 15:58   Link #202
hyl
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
Which isn't all that surprising after all, given how it's supposed to be some sort of "prize" for all the "hard-work" you had to go through up to that point.
Most English speaking people from what i have seen tend to skip the H-scenes and in some occasions I can't call them "prizes" seeing that a few even break the flow of the story.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:00   Link #203
Midonin
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I'd never skip them, and in the context of this thread, I still consider them important. Event the way someone has sex can serve as characterization. No two routes have the same kind of angles or the same kind of fetishes. These things are fanservice, but they're fanservice with a point.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:03   Link #204
hyl
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I'd never skip them, and in the context of this thread, I still consider them important. Event the way someone has sex can serve as characterization. No two routes have the same kind of angles or the same kind of fetishes. These things are fanservice, but they're fanservice with a point.
The act itself might important for the story but most of the time it's not worth reading these scenes in detail. Because regardless how people write those scenes differently, H-scenes are essentially all the same.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:05   Link #205
Midonin
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The act itself might important for the story but most of the time it's not worth reading these scenes in detail because H-scenes are essentially all the same.
I'd argue otherwise. Just the fact that the characters in the routes have different personalities, different fetishes, the lighting and camera angles of the CGs, the circumstances in which the characters are engaging in it. (Are they hiding out? Is it a lovers' wake up sex kind of thing? Are they drunk?), all of these things make the scenes unique. Just because something calls upon a base desire doesn't mean it lacks merit.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:09   Link #206
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Guys, can we get back to the topic of “anime’s sexual fanservice in serious action scenes”? If not, this thread will be no different than any other threads discussing about fanservice in a more general sense.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:18   Link #207
hyl
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I'd argue otherwise. Just the fact that the characters in the routes have different personalities, different fetishes, the lighting and camera angles of the CGs, the circumstances in which the characters are engaging in it. (Are they hiding out? Is it a lovers' wake up sex kind of thing? Are they drunk?), all of these things make the scenes unique. Just because something calls upon a base desire doesn't mean it lacks merit.
To be honest, out of the last dozens eroges that i have read last year, the majority of them had uninspiring H-scenes.
You can predict the majority of them when such scenes will appear or worse a few of them had completely out of nowhere H-scenes that make me scratch my head.(btw i am not talking about nukiges)
There are even some rare ones in which the characters act out of character in the H-scenes, while they act normally again in the main story.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Guys, can we get back to the topic of “anime’s sexual fanservice in serious action scenes”? If not, this thread will be no different than any other threads discussing about fanservice in a more general sense.
Oddly enough i am discussing something similar but with VN's XD
I feel that some H-scenes break the flow of such a story and that is similar to some people's reaction to how ecchi fanservice seem to interrupt/distract serious action scenes.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:20   Link #208
Midonin
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You can predict the majority of them when such scenes will appear or worse a few of them had out of nowhere H-scenes that make me scratch my head.
There are even some rare ones in which the characters act out of character in the H-scenes, while they act normally in the main story.
Predictable doesn't necessarily mean bad. And for the second point - it's an intense and private action. People may very well act differently then than they do in day to day life. "Normal" is a contextual thing.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:28   Link #209
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
Predictable doesn't necessarily mean bad. And for the second point - it's an intense and private action. People may very well act differently then than they do in day to day life. "Normal" is a contextual thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Oddly enough i am discussing something similar but with VN's XD
I feel that some H-scenes break the flow of such a story and that is similar to some people's reaction to how ecchi fanservice seem to interrupt/distract serious action scenes.
But this thread is not meant for VNs and the H-scenes in VNs don’t happen during battles (people can’t have sex and fight at the same time in VNs). So please get back to topic before a mod checks these posts out.
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Old 2013-01-13, 16:28   Link #210
hyl
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
Predictable doesn't necessarily mean bad. And for the second point - it's an intense and private action. People may very well act differently then than they do in day to day life. "Normal" is a contextual thing.

Well the previous post of mine was my opinion of why i hold the ctrl key for most games in which the H-scenes are not relevant for the overall story. It's fine with me if you read all of them though.

Also you don't need H-scenes to show how intimate a relationship has become. Some all ages VN do a great job at depicting that


edit: i meant with my 2nd part of my previous post also contradictions in the main story. Like how the H-scenes in the recent Koiken Otome hardly effected the heroines, while a simple touch or kiss of the MC could make someone power up to uncontrollable high levels of magical powers in the main story.

Last edited by hyl; 2013-01-13 at 16:46.
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Old 2013-01-13, 21:30   Link #211
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And the criticisms I wrote there were clearly presented as personal opinions. It's not like I was trying to pass them off as objective facts.

"I'm not a fan of the fanservice" and "This show would be much better without it, imo." imo being short for "in my opinion."

I never used a term as harsh as "trash". I never made any pretense about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. So why did it become such a big deal?
I think I answered this before, at least from my perspective, that I found it curious that people would not be okay with fanservice specifically in action scenes but okay with it in other contexts. I wanted to understand why you felt that way (what it was you were looking for in action scenes specifically that made them a special case), as the separation you desire simply never occurred to me, as I didn't have a problem taking the "serious scenes seriously" in the show used as a comparison.

In other words, because I thought your point of view seemed different and wanted to understand why you felt that way (and if others felt the same way). And a variety of views were presented about it.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where its apparently beyond criticism. Any element of any anime show is open to criticism, imo. And any element of any anime show is also open to compliment. In both cases, it's the reasoning behind the criticism or compliment that is most important, imo.
I don't think anyone was arguing that fanservice is beyond criticism, but it also extremely subjective of course. I think it's a directorial/stylistic choice. So if you assert "there's a wrong way of using it", then it important to define what the problem is (and why you think it's a problem). Of course, someone else could note that it isn't a problem to them.

(This thread was, again, at least for my part, trying to flesh out why you thought it was a problem.)


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Not all men have the exact same taste in women, so I find it odd that all male anime viewers are expected to have the same taste in fanservice.
I don't think anyone has this expectation either; in fact, it seems to me that there actually a wide variety of shows that emphasize different sorts of characters in lead and supporting roles. Saying it's "all the same" seems a bit fallacious to me, as I can certainly point to styles I like more and styles I like less (or not at all).


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Actually, many of the ecchi-based anime shows that relied on censorship to drive up DVD/Blu-Ray sales ended up bombing anyway. This isn't necessarily as popular as people tend to think it is. Which is another reason why I don't think this type of content should be given special treatment. The argument seems to be "This is what otakus want, so we must at least tolerate it".

Is it what otakus want? Some, yes, but not necessarily a majority.
Personally, I think the "this is what otaku want" thing is mostly intended as a judgemental insult in the first place. If it were really that simple then, as you assert, all you'd have to do is have fanservice for a show to sell well. And that has proven time and again to not be the case. Many shows that market themselves primarily on fanservice just aren't also seen as being "all that good". If you're going to buy something, it has to have value beyond just that initial TV viewing.

Of course, there are shows that are heavily fanservice-driven and end up selling quite well. The recent To Love-Ru: Darkness would be an example of that. Obviously the fanservice is a big part of the pull, but it's also the characters, the universe, the sorts of situations involved, and yes even the "plot" such that it is. So just "adding fanservice" like a magic potion to make "otaku" buy your product doesn't work.

Contrary to many assertions, anime collectors are a fairly discerning bunch; they're picky, even if their choices don't always make sense to some people with different tastes. And collectors aren't also a single uniform group that all wants the same thing, likes the same thing, and purchases the same things en masse. The ~35k people who bought SAO aren't necessarily related to the ~70k who bought Madoka Magica or the ~80k who bought Bakemonogatari, though there will clearly be some overlap. What collectors want isn't nearly so binary and they don't move as a uniform mass. It's dynamic, organic, and complex. If creators could figure out so easily what makes collectors tick, there wouldn't be nearly so many poorly-selling shows every single season year after year (covering pretty much all styles and target demographics). (Then again, it's worth making the note here that, similarly, Blu-Ray/DVD sales aren't everything, lest we fall into that trap as well.)


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So the actual objective evidence that fanservice is needed to drive this industry is questionable at best. So, again, I don't think that fanservice should be given this higher "fantasy" stature where it's beyond criticism.
Again, I would ask, why do you get the impression that it's seen as "beyond criticism"? I do think, though, in their criticism, sometimes make rather bold assertions about how things "should be" based on their own personal preferences, that tend to exclude other opinions. For example, you asserted that it'd be "win-win" if they'd just take all fanservice out of action scenes and reserve it for the other scenes, because then people who want the action left alone will be happy and people who want the fanservice will be happy. But what about people who are not discontented (at least) about the blend the way it already was? It's a sort of false binary here, like "there's nothing for anyone to lose by agreeing with me". You lose precisely the unique combination that is presented. My view is that there should be a place for all sorts of approaches in this area, and of course people will have to decide what works for them and what doesn't.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So if "what else is happening on screen" is an action scene that I was finding perfectly engaging until the pervy camera angles started, then naturally I'm not going to be fond of this fanservice that implicitly states "What are you focusing on that dull action scene for? This is what you really want, amirite? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*"
I understand that you see it that way, but by the same token I think that's sort of the way it stands out to you doing the talking. To me it does necessarily not "implicitly state" this or stick out so badly. It's just part of the scene. But again, as I said earlier, perhaps this is because I don't watch action scenes/fights in the same way you do.

I think the very key issue of this thread is realizing how everyone can see the same thing differently.
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Old 2013-01-13, 22:41   Link #212
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't think anyone was arguing that fanservice is beyond criticism,
Your latest post here is a reply to my reply to Solace. My reading of Solace's post left me a bit worried that Solace might be shifting fanservice off to this "Fantasy" category where it would be above criticism. Thankfully, after discussing this further with Solace, this does not appear to be the case.


Quote:
I think it's a directorial/stylistic choice.
Sure. And like almost any choice, some people will like it, and some people won't, and I see no harm in both sides expressing their opinion there.

I don't expect those who like it to stop liking it just because other people don't like it.

But by the same token, those that dislike it aren't going to start liking it just because some other people do like it.

Ultimately, this will probably have to be an "Agree to Disagree" sort of thing.


Quote:
I don't think anyone has this expectation either;
Then how do you explain this?

That was the first reply I received for my review of VRO's first episode.

By my reading of it, it's saying "You clearly like yuri, so you must like the fanservice in VRO too".


Quote:
in fact, it seems to me that there actually a wide variety of shows that emphasize different sorts of characters in lead and supporting roles. Saying it's "all the same" seems a bit fallacious to me, as I can certainly point to styles I like more and styles I like less (or not at all).
Sure, I agree with all of that.


Quote:
Personally, I think the "this is what otaku want" thing is mostly intended as a judgemental insult in the first place.
I typically see that line used to justify why anime content is the way that it is. The person using that line is not necessarily insulting otakus with it. In fact, the person using that line is often defending anime (as a whole) from someone voicing a criticism like "There's too much moe in anime" or "Why do we have so many of XXXX type of show, but not more shows like Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell?".

At a purely neutral and "simple fact" level, the defense may well have some validity to it. I tend to see otakus (i.e. Japanese hardcore anime fans, as I tend to use the term "otaku") in a netural sense (but I respect that most tend to use the term with a distinctly positive connotation, or unfortunately a very negative one).

Sometimes I agree with otakus, sometimes I don't. I don't think they're "losers", and I think they have as much right to their tastes as anybody else does. And I respect how they drive this industry.


Quote:
I do think, though, in their criticism, sometimes make rather bold assertions about how things "should be" based on their own personal preferences, that tend to exclude other opinions.
People will disagree sometimes. Disagreement means that you favor one opinion (typically your own, of course) over others. That's the inherent nature of disagreement. If two opinions are diametrically opposed (as they sometimes are), then people will tend to choose between the two incompatible opinions.

Even some people in the same fandom for a particular show will disagree sometimes. You see this a lot when it comes to character discussions, for example.

At a most basic level, I advocate for what I like, and against what I don't like. I think most here are the same, and I think that's fine. Again, I'm fine with an amicable "agree to disagree", and I respect that different people have different tastes. But that's not going to change what I think of pervy camera angles in a serious action scene.

For me, it's a negative. My opinion is that it detracts from the technical and cinematography quality of the action scene. Personally, it also creates a nasty "mood clash" for me. It's the lone element that made me drop Strike Witches, a show that I think I otherwise would have liked.

So naturally I'm not going to be fond of this element. I mean, it's very rare for a lone element to actually ruin a show for me.


This will probably be my last post on this topic. I think I've made my stance on this topic (and the reasoning behind it) pretty clear by now. If not, I'm fine with anybody PMing me for further clarification.

With thanks given to you and the other Moderators, our PM boxes are now large enough for me to safely go this route if needbe.
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Old 2013-01-13, 23:49   Link #213
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then how do you explain this?

That was the first reply I received for my review of VRO's first episode.

By my reading of it, it's saying "You clearly like yuri, so you must like the fanservice in VRO too".
I honestly didn't take that comment all that seriously. While it wasn't exactly a "joke", I didn't think it was meant as some sort of a profound statement tied to "you can't be critical of fanservice". But, people do tend to stereotype based on superficial reasons, including their choice of avatar/signature (one of the reasons I didn't want an avatar for so long!) If someone has an avatar/signature that is full of "fanservice", and then they start arguing against "fanservice", it raises the possibility (not confirmation!!) of hypocrisy/double standards -- like why are you okay with that kind of fanservice, but not this one? But you went on to explain how, for you, it's quite a different thing depending on the context... and the conversation started. So what may have superficially seemed like an odd double-standard got clarified as.... well, at least, a defined philosophy and/or set of expectations. It makes sense to you why you see it that way and want to make the distinction, at least.

(Incidentally, just as an example of the sorts of double-standards you see and why you might get that sort of accusation at first glance... There are certainly people who will (for example) absolutely rail against a show's "objective flaws" when it features a certain type of pairing they dislike, but then completely gloss-over/ignore the very same "flaws" when it features a different sort of pairing they happen to like. It's basically not so different from shipping; a sort of rose-coloured glasses. If you appear to be against something "on principle", it better be clear what the principle is... which is clear to you, but it may not seem so obvious at first glance for people who don't see it that way.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I typically see that line used to justify why anime content is the way that it is. The person using that line is not necessarily insulting otakus with it. In fact, the person using that line is often defending anime (as a whole) from someone voicing a criticism like "There's too much moe in anime" or "Why do we have so many of XXXX type of show, but not more shows like Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell?".

At a purely neutral and "simple fact" level, the defense may well have some validity to it.
Well, I think there are different ways you can either make or "read into" that defence.

Most of the times people make assertions like those you mention (there being too much <whatever>, or not enough shows like <x favourite show>), the insinuation is clearly "the world would be a better place if there were more of what I like" (and typically attached, less of what I don't like). That's not so very unreasonable to have as a personal opinion, I guess, because everyone is ultimately seeking their own enjoyment. But entertainment is driven primarily by demand as determined by sales. So you enter this sort of spiral argument. "Why aren't there more shows like the ones I like?" "Because not enough people are buying them." "Why aren't more people buying them? They're so good!" "Because it's not what the market is apparently seeking." "Why isn't the market seeking 'good works' anymore?" ...and, as you see, now it start degrading into "...because they have poor taste" and so on, and all sorts of wild one-dimensional stereotypes about how "otaku" are not significantly discerning as if they're a singular mass of "dumb", when they're actually a massive collection of individual collectors making individual purchase decisions for individual reasons that sometimes coincide (but often do not).

In the end, each one of us can be a collector and join the so-called "otaku market". It's as easy (and as difficult) as investing your money into the shows you like by buying merchandise. So saying "why is there so much moe" or "why do we have so much of <x> and not enough of <y>" is of limited value as "criticism". All it really comes down to "why are my own tastes not aligned with those of the market at large any more?" (or "why are my tastes suddenly such a tiny niche?") and the answers are: because each person is different, and because times change.

Does something selling well exempt the thing from criticism? No, of course not. But this is still a participatory project. It's sort of like lamenting that a sports team left your town because the market was too small and nobody bought tickets. I mean, it's a shame, but that isn't going to bring the team back either. Criticising your townsfolk for not sufficiently enjoying a sport you like is not really going to get you anywhere, but galvanizing the people who are disheartened by the loss to start supporting the things they do like to prevent it from happening again is more constructive. I do honestly think that people who argue that there are "no more good anime" either have extremely limited tastes, are too jaded, or simply aren't looking hard enough.
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