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Old 2003-12-18, 05:52   Link #41
u&t
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Just one note on the corporation. Don't think they're working for the government. The girls are not all italian and as far as we know the brothers are all dropouts of some kind.

I would say the Corporation is funded by "THEM" or whoever else it is that really runs things...

On another note the show reminds me a bit of the Bourne Identity. The "mental conditioning" sorta failed on the main protagonist in that movie and then things went bad...
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Old 2003-12-18, 06:49   Link #42
Kensuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abubo
Rico:
I think she's the most emotionally wrecked and brainwashed girl thus far.
Plus she can kill without any kind of remorse, other may have talked to that hotel boy so that it wouldn't be necessary to kill him, but Rico just remembers Jan's instructions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati_nut
I really do hope the ending pits the girls against each other, and doesn't end with everybody living happily ever after.
Happy endings suck.
Only one to initiate rebellion againts corporation is Triela since she is "leader" of the girls because she is oldest and has shown that she can think independently, but I too feel that he is already accepted her role. Henrietta may follow Triela but is too attached to Jose to even think something that will put him in danger, so Jose must also join rebellion. Claes and Rico are just like puppets, (at this moment, may change in future) and are unlikely to object their treatment.

So far GSG has been good cambination of action and emotional episodes, but there has been no "big plot" in this series, just random episodes (or so it seems) about those girls, but of course this can change. They should just kill those "brothers", or at least most of them...

Edit: I checked official site, ep. 8 is out and it is about Angelica! (According the little japanese I understand and a single picture of her)

Last edited by Kensuke; 2003-12-18 at 07:38.
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Old 2003-12-18, 11:47   Link #43
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducati_nut
I hope that happens to, but with a twist. I think Jose is the only adult that would revolt against the organization. If he does revolt, then Henrietta would naturally be with him. So far the only other girls that seem capable of revolting would be Claes and Triela. Claes has no allegience to anyone at the organization, and she probably loathes the scientists that treat her as a lab rat. Triela has already showed hints of rebellious behavior. Rico, sadly, is too brainwashed to know any better. She would never go against Jan's orders. If the rebellion occurred now, then it would be Henrietta, Claes, and Triela against lone Rico. I really do hope the ending pits the girls against each other, and doesn't end with everybody living happily ever after.
I like the part about Jose being the leader of the rebellion, since Henrietta is probably the main character of the series, and Jose is really treating her more like a family everyday.

I think, unfortunately, this series will not end in a happy note. I think Rico will, unfortunately die at the end. I believe she will attempt and try to escape her brainwashing, but it's pretty appearant that Rico is a tragic character and her fate won't be pleasant. Can things get worse than killiing the boy you have a crush on in cold blood?

Triela has potential, but I happen to think that she's probably the only girl who's actually OK with her position in life, that she consciously chooses to be the killer that she is. And there maybe other reasons why she's so willing too. I think Triela won't turn easily, but may do it at the end.

Claes will definately be part of rebellion. Her soul has been stamped with independance which the brainwashing can't erase, and I think she can easily turn on the Corp.

Sadly, I think at the end the gilrs will end up fighting each other. Some may live, some may die. If a uprising happens now, I think will be Henrietta/Claes versus Triela and Rico, unfortunately. Angelica then becomes the X-factor... what's her story? Which side will she choose?

Gosh I hate being addicted to series like this. You love it but you know you'll hate the ending. You can just see Jose being gunned down by one of the girls and Henrietta full of bullets trying to help Jose... aiyaiyai...
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Old 2003-12-18, 11:52   Link #44
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u&t
Just one note on the corporation. Don't think they're working for the government. The girls are not all italian and as far as we know the brothers are all dropouts of some kind.

I would say the Corporation is funded by "THEM" or whoever else it is that really runs things...
I think they are definately connected to the gov't. They are feared by both the terrorists and the mofia. I think they're more like a shadow FBI... top secret para-military outfit that does the gov't bidding but stay outside of the law. That doesn't make them the good guys since this particular gov't is very obviously corrupt to the core. Remember Clae's handler said that he joined so that he can re-join the Military Police later? Whomever funds the CORP must have close ties with the military as well.

A lot of them are foreigners, ur right. I think Jose is Spanish and Jan is Friench, no? And the we know Claes is definately German. I think Triela and Henrietta is Italian though. Not sure about Rico... probably Italian too.
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Old 2003-12-18, 12:02   Link #45
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensuke
Happy endings suck.
I would normally agree with you since I like deep anime with a lot of hidden meanings. That usually translate to sad endings. I am an EVA fan so I guess in some anime I do prefer it.

BUT this is NOT one of those anime! The girls are surrounded by so much tragedy and sadness already, I mean the first thing we learn about Henrietta was the fact that she was brutally raped while her entire family was killed! 2 Episode later we saw Rico gunning down her first crush! I mean talking about emotional trauma... a sad ending for these girls is NOT something I'd want. I'm okay with ending a silly comedy like Mahoromatic with a dramatic ending (not that I like it.. I don't), but please, please, PLEASE give these poor girls some acceptable end.

but I'm smart enough to know that it's inevitable that they will end up killing each other. Sigh.
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Old 2003-12-18, 12:32   Link #46
u&t
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abubo
I think they are definately connected to the gov't.
Ony in the sense that "THEM" also secretly runs the goverment. Yeah paranoia!!
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Old 2003-12-18, 12:59   Link #47
Relentless
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Very nice thread.

Another interesting point is how different each big brother or handler are. They're not outright absolute bastards like the guy in Kite. It lends the series a "shades if gray" feeling. OK, they're all a bunch of rotten manipulators and abusers since they DO use little girls to commit acts of unspeakeable evil , but as I said in another thread, one can't deny several of them really and sincerely care for their young wards, and consider them more than simple tools. But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil? And by extension, are the girls evil too? Are they accountable? Sure, they were brainwashed or conditioned, but they still know what they're doing. One utterly chilling scene many may have not been aware of happened in episode 4, when Triela coldy and off-hand-ly told Hilsher "When we find him (Mario), we kill him, right?". Also, nobody ansered my question in the GSG ep 6 thread, but I still don't know why Jose was so angry when they were eavesdropping the terrorists in the restaurant that he told Henrietta to "take pleasure in killing them". It was very out of character.

Well, back to my point:

Jose is supossedly the nicest of the bunch. He loves Henrietta like a sister and treats her well, and he's concerned about her wellbeing, beyond her mere physical fitness for the job. He might be a naive idealist, thinking he's helping the girl because she has forgotten her sad past and has given her some kind of new life. Maybe he thinks the Corp. is not going to kill her or destroy her when she is not useful anymore, or maybe he thinks they can escape.

Jan is the biggest bastard who walks on Earth, but I have to concede that he's the least hypocritic. The girls are tools for a job and he uses them like that. Be he has no right to hit Rico, dammit! He doesn't care about Rico's feelings and doesn't explain her anything, his whole attitude is "just do it or get replaced".

Hilsher is another sympatethic character, much like Jose. His relationship with Triela is just like a father with a daughter stranged because she entered the upheavals of adolescence. They don't know how to comunicate, but strangely, they can talk to other people, friends or even strangers, quite easily. He cares enough about Triela that he tells her that all the people they have to kill are "bad guys". He explains her the missions in detail too. Finally, he's nobody's fool or tool, and he's the most idealistic. He already rebelled against EUROPOL when he judged that it was more important to bust the kidnapping operation than capturing a Mafia executive. I can perfectly believe that he will turn against the Corp. to try to save Triela.

Raballo was second to none the most well adjusted character. A cold, nonsense field operative who only cared about returning to his job, he was stern and severe but fair to Claes, and later he become to love her like a daughter. Claes is the only girl who has openly referred to his partner as a father. When he fully realized how wrongly the girls have been treated, he tried to take down the Corp. by blowing a whistle but unfortunately was killed. Unlike Jose or Hilsher who are more or less contented with the Corp.'s "works", he tried to act, to do something that might help or improve the girls (or at least, Claes') situation.

I think I have written enough I'll update it when we got to see Angelica's story and his handler, Marco.
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Old 2003-12-18, 19:59   Link #48
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relentless
Another interesting point is how different each big brother or handler are.
Yes, that is kinda interesting.. thanks for the post. To me they are more or less the same except for Jose and Raballo. But you do make some good points. I agree there's some shades of Gray here, BUT, I think a guy with any sense of decency would do what Raballo did, which is trying to rescue them by exposing the horror. I don't care how much Jose really cares for Henrietta; as long as he stay with the CORP dogma and put these girls in danger on a daily basis, he's still shit in my book.


Quote:
But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil? And by extension, are the girls evil too? Are they accountable? Sure, they were brainwashed or conditioned, but they still know what they're doing. One utterly chilling scene many may have not been aware of happened in episode 4, when Triela coldy and off-hand-ly told Hilsher "When we find him (Mario), we kill him, right?"
The answer is, no, with a qualifier. The handlers weren't brainwashed at all, they did what they did completely out of their own free will. That's evil. The girls are all brainwashined to some degree. For Henrietta, Claes, and Rico, I would say they know not what they do, for the brainwashing has taken away their dread of mortality. They do not fear death nor do they care when others die. That's just not natural for pre-teen girls (or anyone).

The qualifier, however, is Triela. She seemed to have a total grasp of her situation and her past. I'm not sure how much brainwashing she's gotten, if any at all. I suspect that she no longer receive any conditioning, as demostrated by her own decision to let Mario go (and lying to Hilsher about it afterwards). That's disobeying a direct order from her handler, and she just did it without thinking much about it. I believe that Triela's just like the handler in her psychology, that she chose to be a killer like Hilsher or Jan out of her own free will, not due to conditioning. So if you ask me "Is Triela evil?" I .... I don't know how to answer that. Yet.

Quote:
Also, nobody ansered my question in the GSG ep 6 thread, but I still don't know why Jose was so angry when they were eavesdropping the terrorists in the restaurant that he told Henrietta to "take pleasure in killing them". It was very out of character.
That maybe due to a backstory about Jose, that he has more intense (personal?) hatred toward the terrorists. Hmmm.. could it be that Jose joined to CORP for revenge? That his family or someone close was killed by the terrorists? If That's the case, then it would explain why Jose was so nice to Henrietta, that he seemed really wanted to help her, but maybe too powerless to stop it. He's not a heartless killer or a professional assassin like Jan. This may turn out to be the main plot in the future, and the reason they spend the first 2 episode on Jose and Henrietta.

Some short comments:

Quote:
Maybe [Jose] thinks the Corp. is not going to kill her or destroy her when she is not useful anymore, or maybe he thinks they can escape.
I agree with your assessment of Jose. I think he is biding his time to break Henrietta out of there. Another one of his consideration maybe the fact that Henrietta maybe what, 50% artificial, and without the CORP and their cybernetic technology, she would die anyway. She has to stay to keep herself alive. Jose will be the catalyst for change.

Quote:
Jan is the biggest bastard who walks on Earth
Like I've said before, I would do 3 cheers when Rico puts a .45 through Jan's cranium.

Quote:
Hilsher is another sympatethic character, much like Jose. His relationship with Triela is just like a father with a daughter
Their relationship to me is more like peer to peer. I think Hilsher respect Triela more like a peer rather than father/daughter. I think it's due to Jose's treatment of Henrietta that he was reminded that this here's still a little girl, not a pro like himself. As for breaking Triela out, I don't think he'll go that far since althought he's more idealistic than others, he's still a professional killer. I think he's really relieved that Triela didn't ask him for perfume or clothes but just another teddy... Don't think Triela expect or want warmth from him. She, as much as him, wants to keep their relationship as professional as possible. I think that's another aspect of Triela that's telling me she's just as much a pro as the handlers. She's only shorter and much, much cuter.

Quote:
Raballo was second to none the most well adjusted character.
Raballo's the only MAN of the bunch. 'nuff said. He knows he's going to be killed for helping Claes and he did it anyway. Yes he failed but his spirit lives on through Claes. The man risked everything in order to save an innocent girl he barely knows. That's a true display of manhood.
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Old 2003-12-19, 06:18   Link #49
Lambda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relentless
But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil?
Any good train of thought regarding real-world psychology will never use the classification "evil", and even in discussing a fictional world which can of course only approximate the real one, any such necessity indicates that what is being discussed is no longer psychology. "Evil" is a word which is used specifically to avoid any kind of deep psychological understanding of a person, idea or culture, usually because such understanding would undermine a comfortable illusion (such as the idea that you would and could never be capable of doing such a thing) or to make the gratification of the revenge impulse more satisfying. Instead of dismissing such a thing as "evil", (a concept that of course is based on the fundamentally flawed notion that a little bit of meaningless randomness at the quantum level somehow makes behaviour that follows from a combination of the genetic code given at conception and one's experiences thereafter, along with the specific conditions at the time, some sort of meaningful "choice"), we should be discussing notions of (micro)cultural conditioning, group behaviour and the like.

For example, we have Jan hitting Rico. And he sees her as a tool. Lets extend that notion, and say that he doesn't see her as a human. It's OK to take one's rage out on a convenient lamppost, say, it's OK to kill loads of polygon collections in a computer game, so this is a similar idea to those, maybe. So if that's the case, why doesn't he see her as human? Is it a convenient lie he tells himself to avoid having to consider the implications of what they're doing? (a protective mechanism). Something that reflects an inner disgust at the procedure, and by extension its products? Of course, it might be that the author hasn't considered this question, and has simply reasoned "he does this because he's a bastard," under which conditions he is indeed doing it because he has an evil role in the story, but in this case we are now not discussing realistic human behaviour (there is always some reason that people behave the way they do), so it's no longer a discusssion about psychology, it's merely about the story being told.
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Old 2003-12-19, 11:09   Link #50
Orochi
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It's high-time an intelligent discussion took place here, and GSG is just the fertile ground needed. Now, I'll join in...as soon as I go and get a degree in psychology.
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Old 2003-12-19, 15:08   Link #51
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda
"Evil" is a word which is used specifically to avoid any kind of deep psychological understanding of a person
I would agree with that. "Evil" is not a description but a judgement from one person's view. I guess that's why the the mental states of most handler except Jose are of no interest to me; to explain why they do what they do is, although a valid debate, is being done to the death for years. People trying to analyze why people display anti-social or destructive behavior, that's not where I want to go. I want to know specifically what the girls think and split their own minds from the brainwashing.

Quote:
For example, we have Jan hitting Rico. .
I like what you say about Jan. Yes he's a bastard but even extreme cases like Jeffery Dalmer and The DC snipers can rationalize their behavoir in their own way. But what happens in Triela and Rico's mind is so much more interesting to me. Jan to me is a typical alpha-male, self-centered character who uses everyone around him to get what he wanted. Kinda boring if you ask me. Rico's constant struggle to eek out what's left of her humanity is so much more facinating than Jan acting like a self-important mofo. His only role in the show is to make you feel how special Rico really is when she, out of all people, COMFORTED that idiotic ex-artist accountant.

Oh please, please don't kill Rico....
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Old 2003-12-19, 15:14   Link #52
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi
It's high-time an intelligent discussion took place here, and GSG is just the fertile ground needed. Now, I'll join in...as soon as I go and get a degree in psychology.
Nonono.. this is an anime board for crying out loud. It's entertaiment and not some high-minded dissertation. Please do join in and share your thoughts... it doesn't take a degree in anything to feel for these girls. I certainly don't have a degree in psychology (I did want a real job back in the days ); I just want to share some thought about what's in those girls heads. I'm sure anyone who enjoy the show can do that. GSG is not exactly EVA u know...
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Old 2003-12-19, 15:24   Link #53
abubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u&t
Ony in the sense that "THEM" also secretly runs the goverment. Yeah paranoia!!
I thought everyone knows that the Mob actually runs the Italian gov't

*Joke here, no offense to true Italian brothers here *
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Old 2003-12-19, 20:13   Link #54
Kensuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abubo
Jan to me is a typical alpha-male, self-centered character who uses everyone around him to get what he wanted.
Now why that sounds familar... my impression of Gendo Ikari is same, althought he uses manipulation and others do the dirty job. So maybe GSG is not NGE but characters are as emotionally wrecked as those in NGE.
So does Jans treatment of Rico become future plot points, maybe, but I wonder why Jose doesn't object his brothers actions since Jose truly cares about Henrietta, but maybe selfish reasons, he knows that what they are doing is wrong and by trying to give Henrietta as much of "normal life" as he can, he hopes to save his on soul.

At least Triela understands Ricos situation when she said that Rico is like work dog for Jan. Henrietta cares about the other girls but does Triela cares what is happening to Rico? She isn't very warm towards the other girls, exception is Henrietta, she helped her to speak to Jose.

I wished that GSG would be 26 episodes long, 13 episodes is too short for a such wonderfully twisted characters.
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Old 2003-12-20, 07:45   Link #55
The Faction's Lord
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Wow, my first post, anyway, GG is the first and only anime I've downloaded, and I have seen Episode - 8
Anyway this is besides the point. I'm wondering what would happen if Jan died, would Rico react like Claes? I don't think so, as that ******* doesn't treat her as a human being, just a tool, hence she will be unaffected or not very much, unlike Claes who had a breakdown.
Also, I think that Jose will actually try to rescue Henrietta at the end of the series, taking her with him, thus the other Fratello's will be dispatched to bring him and Henrietta down. This raises the question of how deeply the girls have bonded and whether they will attack each other. As shown in episode 5 there is a possibility that they will attack each other.
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Old 2003-12-20, 17:07   Link #56
lavarock
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Gunslinger Girl Episode 8 [Spoiler]

Can anybody explain to me what really happened in episode 8? Or will it all be explained in Episode 9? Seems to me Angelica is having problems with memory, long term memory loss it seems. But episode 8 didn't explain what caused it or it's just because they screwed up her brain?
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Old 2003-12-20, 17:19   Link #57
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Hummm...
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=305
Don't you think it would your question would fit very well here?
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Old 2003-12-21, 16:40   Link #58
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hm... I think it's just implyed that a side effect of "conditioning" is severe memory loss. In a previous episode Jose said he didn't want henrietta reconditioned, he didn't "want to lose all his work," or somethjing to that extent.
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Old 2003-12-22, 01:24   Link #59
abubo
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Post Episode 8 - Angelica

Alright I've just finished episode 8 and wanted to contribute to this thread some more.

First thing: Jose is seriously concern about Henrietta, where as you can tell the rest of the goons seemed to treat the gilrs like toys. He's ploting something, you can just tell from his eyes. his guilt is eating at him everday, something's gotta give soon.

Now Finally we've learned all about Angelica. She appeared to be the FIRST "Gitai" cyborg... that's surprising since I thought for certain Triela was first (she maybe just the oldest). Maybe due to the problem with earlier conditioning medicine, she does not retain certain long term memories. So it seemed that althought she's sweet and kind, she but a shell of a girl, her soul almost spent. She's just as sweet and nice as Henrietta, but due to Jose's protection, Henrietta retained more of herself than Angelica. I don't believe she has much of herself left, and anything she would do to further her humanity she will soon forget, just like how she forgot all about her "possibilities".

Marco, her handler, seemed to be a normal joe at first, but I think, interestingly, has chosen a typical psychological escape to deal with himself: he has chosen to distant himself emotionally from Angelica. I think he was more like Jose to begin with, that he wanted to help this sad little girl all he can and help her adjust to her new life. But as he "train" her more and see her emerge more as this mindless killing machine, I believe that in his mind, the more "Pasta Prince" story he tell her, the more he can tell himself that he's actually helping her, not destroying her. However, when the result of the conditioning begin to affect Angelica's memory, he realized that all he did and build with Angelica was for naught; his efforts didn't mean a damn thing for her psychologically. All he did was act like a dog trainer, telling her how to kill.

Since his self-rationalization was based on his pasta story, the fact that she didn't remember it destroyed his self-delusion, and then he has to pick the next-best line of reasoning: treating her like a tool, just like our beloved Mr. Jan. Distanting himself emotionally utterly from her in order to do his job. Will he save her? not a chance. He's more like Jan to me than anyone else. His intention to start maybe fine, but at the end he's just a selfish bastard like the rest of them.

Angelica, it seemed, is more "Rico" than Rico herself. Her story will end in sadness, it seemed.
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Old 2003-12-22, 01:59   Link #60
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Good Analysis, but anybody can give a explaination why Angelica has problem with long term memory? Is it a side effect from repetitive reconditioning?
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