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Old 2013-01-14, 17:23   Link #31661
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Forget the duct tape shenanigans, Erika murdered 5 people for that logic error!
Exactly. And the only 2 reasons she has to do it are that she's mad and ergo thought that really that was the only way to make sure they wouldn't be the killer or that she came to Rokkenjima with the plan to kill people all along.

LOL, she could be the mysterious Sumadera killer.
They actually wanted the Ushiromiya's money so they gave Ange something to make her look like she was sick and therefore couldn't travel then killed all the Ushiromiya so that Ange would inherit and they could control Ange.

Eva's survival put a loophole in their plan but Eva didn't have the guts to tell Ange her mom's family planned to off her so she just stole Ange from the Sumadera and put her under tight security.

Anyway she couldn't tell the police as she had no proofs and was afraid if she were to try to put the Sumadera in a corner they would send more killers.

Oh, by the way, Erika was in truth Amakusa's older sister. Amakusa was planning to discover what happened to her so he tried working for Eva but then got fond of Ange because somehow she reminded him of Erika.

And that's the truth of Prime.

Oh, about the bomb? Erika somehow escaped from Eva and hid in the house. To get rid of her as she believed Erika had already killed everyone Eva used extreme measures as typical of some horror and action movies to make sure Erika would be dead...

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Also, something else LyricalAura pointed out to KnownNoMore a while back (since KnM seemed to think that EP6 should be completely explainable, even in terms of motives): Where did the tools for the bathroom trap come from? They must have been inside the guest room when Erika sealed it, but why would they be?
The whole problem with Ep 6 is that it's filled with unexplained stuffs that theoretically could make sense had the plot advanced but, since it doesn't really advance... well, they feel really random.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Nah. Logic errors are never about implausible motives or bad writing, only things that are 100% impossible. The letter was meant to have been left by Battler in the first place anyway, so we know that the person to do it would have just been whoever is most convenient to the game master. And once we realize that, it doesn't matter who did it, as long as it's possible.
Well, we can't say for sure. Maybe it was meant to be left by someone else... let's say Kanon. After all if Kanon could leave the room to reach Battler's he could also place the letter. That's speculation though. With the little we know about Ep 6 and considering not even Erika is reliable as she's the murderer comes to wonder if it wasn't piece Erika who faked finding a letter she left there.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I support Genius Battler, and not for that reason at all (I actually find that reason just as bogus as you do). Just remember that BATTLER's viewpoint in EP6 had to be made unreliable because he had learned the truth (Featherine said so). What else could BATTLER's unreliable viewpoint be hiding from us, if not that he's actually Genius Batter?

And while I understand your point that it's in Battler's character to be incompetent, he was anything but at the end of EP5. It's not implausible at all to suppose he stayed that way through EP6.
I wonder if we really need genius Battler.
PieceBattler could be acting according to a plan prepared by Shannon, as everyone else moved in the other episodes according to Yasu's plans, and this would explain why Kanon left the room. Because Yasu was following her own agenda.

As Meta Battler knows the trick behind ShKanon he merely created a story in which that trick was the real one used, although on the surface apparently he was supposed to use another, then let Erika unravel the 'surface trick' and refused to use the real one.

It's like saying I know another trick to put a candy in an upturned cup that's different by the obvious solution but I won't let you know which is, so when you tell me you only faked closing your eyes and I'll insist you didn't saw me put the candy under the cup I'll end up in an apparent logic error about how the candy was placed under the cup.

Actually I've a second solution up on my sleeve but I'll let someone else expose it.

In short I'm not saying MetaBattler is completely incompetent, just that he's not genius either. He's more something in between that could have failed to guess some things in early episodes but then could have learnt to play the game better and have come up with interesting ideas for his own games.
Plus in Ep 5 & 6 Battler is in a pretty different situation.
Ep 5 assumes that PieceBattler knows that there are no dead people nor scary Beato's message so he can be calmer in how he solves things (for example Kinzo's escape) and in Ep 6 he's playing a game.

At the same time MetaBattler had learnt many tricks, had been given knox and, in Ep 6 he has figured out how the game work. He's bound to do better of Ep 1 MetaBattler.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Although my theory on both the Umineko anime and the manga is that Ryukishi let their artists and scriptwriters do them according to their own interpretation, at least to a certain extent. It'd be kind of like practicing Reader Theory in the real world.

...In fact, I'd have a hard time imagining that Ryukishi didn't do it that way. Umineko is about the very concept of presenting interpretations, is it not?
Well, Ryukishi said he would keep an eye on the manga which, after all, gives some extra answers so I'll hate to think those extra answers are actually what the mangaka made up and not the truth of the game.

The mangaka makes quite clear the tale is Dawn by writing it on the cover of the book and showing scenes of it when he could have avoided both things.

Also didn't Will said something about Battler's tale for Beato being a thing and Lion's existence being another? I can't remember the exact sentence nor find it tonight, it seems, but the way Will put it seemed to clearly imply Battler's tale for Beato is Dawn, not Requiem.

(though there had been a time where I too thought it could be requiem, to be honest... :P)

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The question is more, who has the letter? Is Battler the only person who could have it at that point, or could it nebulously be in the hands of anyone in on things? Could it have been left ahead of time? That sort of thing.
Funny enough no red is given on that letter and since Erika is the murderer and therefore not reliable we can't even be sure the letter existed.

If we go with the 'PieceErika is mad' theory the letter could exist solely in Erika's mind. After all, are we sure that Erika's boyfriend cheated her or it was Erika who was paranoid and assumed innocent things were actually proofs of betrayal?

And okay... tonight I'm having fun with Erika being mad theory.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Alternately it's all in Ange's head and she happens to believe in Genius Battler also. And Ange is never wrong, except all the times where she is.
LOL, it'll be an interesting idea if everything was in Ange's head.
She seems a Mary Sue in Ep 3&4, coming to resque Battler and being smarter than him in guessing some things, although we know Ange isn't mystery expert contrary to Battler, she's probably not so strong or else she could have beaten up or tried to the people who bullied her and that according to her Battler was reliable.
Instead she's the one who goes to save him and that dies in a heroic sacrifice.
Also in Ep 4 she can .... make the Sakutarou's red Beato wanted to use void as if she was on a highter level than Beato.
In Ep 8 this could explain Battler's denial to give her a solution. Battler is in her mind and represent the side of her who just wants to believe in her family being made only of nice people.
After all Battler was resurrected by Ange during his fight with Bern as if he was her piece.

And note how Ange in Ep 8 is jealous of Battler and Beato and annoyed at how she seems to believe his family is in the golden land having fun while she's left out. It matches with Battler marrying Beato and forgetting to come back to her in Ep 6.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well i just remembered something: The last scene we see of End's Rokkenjima is Battler saying "it is useless... it's all useless". The funny thing is, if I remember correctly, that he says this at the end of the regular Episode, but before the first tea party. Then the narrative goes on in the "cathedral", without anyone mentioning about what happened on the Rokkenjima side after that.

So could we say that the "court of illusions" was just a metaphor for what was happening in the parlor at the same time? Because then the story would continue by Natsuhi's innocence to be proven and then... well i guess they all die, right? It could go like this:

Erika shows evidence of Natsuhi's guilt
"Shanon" goes off somewhere to commit suicide
Battler remembers promise to "Shanon" (or remembers it earlier but only now is ready to talk about it) and redeems Natsuhi
It is too late to stop the bomb, because "Shanon" is dead already and Genji doesn't say a word about it
Bomb explodes and everyone dies (except Eva and/or Battler who could accidently be going through the tunnels at that time)


This is of course only EP5's Rokkenjima and is NOT supposed to be an attempt at speculating about RokkenjimaPrime
Well, it would be nice if with the useless comment Battler were going to confess the truth to Natsuhi. In short that it was all a trick to have her confess Kinzo was dead only things went to far and anyway Natsuhi refused to talk about it.

Natsuhi won't confess so continue with that torture is useless.

However, if Yasu secretly went on killing people (after all Krauss was killed so someone died prior to the bomb's explosion) this could cause her plan to blow up as the truth could end up being discovered. After all, if Battler confesses it was all a trick, people would end up trying to call Krauss and Co and if they turn up dead... well, I'm not sure Yasu would manage to have accomplices.

However the bomb ends up killing everyone without Yasu having the chance to continue with the epitaph murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantei okuoku View Post
I just finished episode 7 and was very repeatedly told to post my theory on here (no spoilers from episode 8, hane, or tsubasa please).

My theory is that kyrie is the mastermind behind everything. Asumu switched her baby with her stillborn baby. that set up her motive for killing the family that got catalyzed by yasu/Shannon actions. Shannon said that if it was one year or before or after then it wouldn't have been as much. this is because she chose that year to select the next head in the same way she was chosen. that is why no one died in the first game or for most of the second game. the second game rosa acted as a accomplice, while the third game had eva acted as a accomplice. the fourth game was kyrie and Jessica

The first game did not have anyone solve the epitaph so their was no crime but it was maria and Hideyoshi who served as accomplices

When should I read our confession, tsubasa, and hane?
You've to read Ep 8 first, Our Confession, Tsubasa and Hane contain additional tips.

It's hard to reply to your theory if we can't mention the stuffs that happened in Ep 8 and Our Confession that confirm or deny some of your theories.

Oh, also i recommend to read Ryukishi's interview.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-01-14 at 18:21.
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Old 2013-01-14, 17:32   Link #31662
Renall
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Actually from rereading some of ep4 and ep8, one thing I noticed is that Ange is... kind of stupid. Like, seriously. She isn't all that bright. She acts tough and she can be clever, but she has almost no grasp of subtlety, whether we're talking about the 6-year-old version or the 18-year-old version. She is constantly either misinterpreting indirect points people make to her (and not just Battler; she does it to Amakusa also) or ignoring them because they don't suit her. When she tries to think about things, she often settles on a wrong or incomplete conclusion and is perfectly satisfied with it. It's really only toward the end of ep8 that she even remotely begins to get the picture, and by that point the whole matter has been belabored dozens of times.

She also acts in a fairly arbitrary fashion, trusts people implicitly until they appear to "betray" her then refuses to ever trust them again about anything, and generally acts like kind of a dumbass. And it's not something you can chalk entirely to stubbornness, in the same way Erika's dumbness can be chalked up to hubris.

Basically what I'm saying is Ange is a moron and "Everybody Hated Ange" was probably canon because she's a dour whiny self-absorbed bitch even as a six-year-old. And that's when her older self isn't controlling her.
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Old 2013-01-14, 17:34   Link #31663
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Huh? I remember that everyone used to say that the tale Battler gives to Beato is "Land", or do I remember wrong? Wasn't it said in an interview or something?
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Old 2013-01-14, 17:47   Link #31664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Basically what I'm saying is Ange is a moron and "Everybody Hated Ange" was probably canon because she's a dour whiny self-absorbed bitch even as a six-year-old. And that's when her older self isn't controlling her.
Man, that's harsh - girl had issues.
Also, noone is doubting the veracity of 'everyone hated Ange". She's neither book-smart or very sociable, and makes the Ushiromioya shareholders very nervous with her caprice.

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Huh? I remember that everyone used to say that the tale Battler gives to Beato is "Land", or do I remember wrong? Wasn't it said in an interview or something?
Whaaat?
"Land" was Ryu's original plan for EP3, which got scrapped. It was hand-waved in-universe as Beato's "greatest work" of a message bottle, that ended up sinking before being discovered by anyone.
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Old 2013-01-14, 18:13   Link #31665
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Whaaat?
"Land" was Ryu's original plan for EP3, which got scrapped. It was hand-waved in-universe as Beato's "greatest work" of a message bottle, that ended up sinking before being discovered by anyone.
LOL...

Yes i mean exactly this "scrapped EP3" which was called "Land of the Golden Witch"... I could swear there was a consensus here some months ago that it was Land that Battler put into Beato's coffin at the beginning of EP7... well maybe I just assumed that.


Also i just checked the EP7 thread... the last page is full of spoilers for EP8 :/
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Old 2013-01-14, 18:55   Link #31666
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Actually from rereading some of ep4 and ep8, one thing I noticed is that Ange is... kind of stupid. Like, seriously. She isn't all that bright. She acts tough and she can be clever, but she has almost no grasp of subtlety, whether we're talking about the 6-year-old version or the 18-year-old version. She is constantly either misinterpreting indirect points people make to her (and not just Battler; she does it to Amakusa also) or ignoring them because they don't suit her. When she tries to think about things, she often settles on a wrong or incomplete conclusion and is perfectly satisfied with it. It's really only toward the end of ep8 that she even remotely begins to get the picture, and by that point the whole matter has been belabored dozens of times.

She also acts in a fairly arbitrary fashion, trusts people implicitly until they appear to "betray" her then refuses to ever trust them again about anything, and generally acts like kind of a dumbass. And it's not something you can chalk entirely to stubbornness, in the same way Erika's dumbness can be chalked up to hubris.

Basically what I'm saying is Ange is a moron and "Everybody Hated Ange" was probably canon because she's a dour whiny self-absorbed bitch even as a six-year-old. And that's when her older self isn't controlling her.
It's not like she's stupid she's more... obstinate to the point of being closed minded in a way that would be more fitting for a spoiled girl than one that claims to be mistreated.

In a way it's fitting that Amakusa would call her 'princess' as she really seems someone who is trying to rule the world even when that's not possible.

I mean... she claims she's on a quest for the truth, whatever she is.
Bern shows and unpleasant 'truth'. She rejects it.
Battler shows her a nice 'truth'. She rejects it.
Eva's diary shows her a very unpleasant 'truth'. She rejects it again.

She doesn't want the truth, she wants someone to tell her that yes, Eva did it all because she was mean.

There's no way of pleasing her unless you hand her what she wants. She's pretty rude with Nanjo's son and even with the others she sort of tends to act as the spoiled rich girl who must get and do what she wants no discussion allowed... which is odd because if her tale about how Eva handled her is true she probably wasn't spoiled at all...

Though sometimes I wonder if Ange isn't actually 6 years old Ange who exists solely in Tohya/Battler's mind (Ep 8 implied somewhere that Ange is still 6 inside...). Young Ange might have been spoiled and stubborn and in Tohya's mind that's how she remained.

Of course Ange's poor character might have been due to the trauma of losing her family of such a young age, not getting along with Eva and seeing her family being the focus of too many gossips.
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Old 2013-01-14, 19:01   Link #31667
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Though sometimes I wonder if Ange isn't actually 6 years old Ange who exists solely in Tohya/Battler's mind (Ep 8 implied somewhere that Ange is still 6 inside...). Young Ange might have been spoiled and stubborn and in Tohya's mind that's how she remained.
This is something I feel wasn't developed enough as a theme, this idea that Yasu doesn't really know what's become of Battler in six years and Battler doesn't know what's become of Ange in twelve, and seeing each as if neither has changed in any way in the intervening years. And, you know, being wrong.
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Old 2013-01-14, 19:26   Link #31668
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This is something I feel wasn't developed enough as a theme, this idea that Yasu doesn't really know what's become of Battler in six years and Battler doesn't know what's become of Ange in twelve, and seeing each as if neither has changed in any way in the intervening years. And, you know, being wrong.
I think the real problem is that Umineko likes to be blurry and allow for more than one theory. As a result we've a Ange that could be 6 as well as an 18 with problems and we're left to wonder if the problem is Tohya doesn't know Ange grew up or if it's Ange who actually never grew up.

And maybe it's just because it's late and I'm tired but sometimes I would really like for Umineko to give straight answers to all the questions it raised.
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:56   Link #31669
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Umineko...giving straight answers? My mind can't even comprehend that idea. Even its more obvious answers go over some people's heads.

Anyways, it's been a while since I last came to this thread. Have any new consensuses on anything in this series been reached in the last few months?
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Old 2013-01-16, 18:21   Link #31670
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Umineko...giving straight answers? My mind can't even comprehend that idea. Even its more obvious answers go over some people's heads.

Anyways, it's been a while since I last came to this thread. Have any new consensuses on anything in this series been reached in the last few months?
Well, I don't know to which point of the discussion you were anyway Our Confession and Ep 8 manga had handed us some answers on some questions.
So I guess it's not really consensus, more that we got additional info.
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Old 2013-01-17, 17:35   Link #31671
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Consensus: Angeburgers are really tasty, and Yasutrice is probably more right than Rosatrice.
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Old 2013-01-18, 02:08   Link #31672
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Rosatrice? Is KnownNoMore STILL advocating that?
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Old 2013-01-18, 05:04   Link #31673
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Well, I think he's put way too much time and effort into it to actually admit he's wrong at this stage. But he does seem to have become less hostile to the Shkanontrice advocates in his later videos, and he seems to have mostly stopped bothering to respond to comments on his videos, so I think it's fair to say that he's not really as certain of his theory as he used to be. Or he just realised that we'll never "see the light" and stopped caring.
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Old 2013-01-18, 12:18   Link #31674
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TBH there are only a few things pointing to Rosatrice, while a lot more things are contradicting it.

- Hair color(not same but kind of similar)
- Clothes color
- Beatrice being surpirsed about Sakutaro (EP 4 - META)

For the entire EP 2 Rosa has an alibi. Will was allowed to counter blues with his VanDine reds so they are probably applicable too, so only one culprit with MINOR accomplices.
Though his idea of what george does is no longer 'minor'.

the rest is pretty circumstancial.
I guess he realized tha by now and just can't back down after all the work he did.
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Old 2013-01-18, 13:25   Link #31675
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Wait, "similar hair color" counts as evidence to Rosatrice?!
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:22   Link #31676
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Wait, "similar hair color" counts as evidence to Rosatrice?!
I seem to recall "similar hair" was literally the #1 argument in favor of Jessitrice.

That did not work out so well.

If anything, the best candidate for Beatrice would be someone with short hair, because short hair is easier to wear a wig with. Rosa has long hair, so that's automatically going to be an issue.

Also it would be way easier to style a wig the way Beatrice wears her hair than to actually attempt to style it oneself. I'm not sure it's even possible to style it like that without assistance, at least not with any sort of speed.
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:34   Link #31677
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You can come up with a lot of reasons for anyone to be Beatrice if you try hard enough - and KNM certainly did. Personally I think the most hilarious one was that all the ridiculous outfits on Beatrice's demons counted as evidence towards Rosatrice, because it was said that Rosa had an unsuccessful fashion design company.
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:36   Link #31678
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Well, there are so many special visual similarities between specific characters that hair colour could be seen as some sort of hint, but I would advise against using it as a basis for a new line of inquiry though.
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Old 2013-01-18, 15:23   Link #31679
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Well, there are so many special visual similarities between specific characters that hair colour could be seen as some sort of hint, but I would advise against using it as a basis for a new line of inquiry though.
Really, the issue with hair colors is that they apparently are just there for visual diversity. If hair were never mentioned at all that'd be one thing, but the interesting thing about hair color is it almost only ever gets mentioned in the context of Beatrice.

For example, in Legend Battler comments on the portrait witch's blonde hair. He never remarks about the colors of Rosa or Jessica's hair in any way, nor does he use this as the basis for any sort of suspicion. In Requiem, Kinzo and Beatrice C. talk about Italian and Japanese hair, and no mention is made of Kinzo's hair apparently being white as a sheet in his 30s.

Also there's the whole thing with Battler and Ange having similar hair colors even though neither their father nor mother has a color matching them and also no one notices these similarities to argue against them being merely half-siblings.

From all this, we know two things:
  • Beatrice's hair color is important; and
  • Absolutely no other non-magical character's is.
So that pretty much would serve to eliminate most folks from contention. Notably though, Kanon's hair would be fairly easy to conceal under wigs, as it's rather short... though the same could be said for Kyrie, I guess.

Also no one ever remarks on Shannon, Kanon, or Yasu's hair color, so my assumption is that obvious European features are not present there. If they were, I would have to think somebody would've noticed that at some point, or else everyone is impossibly dense, or Yasu has always worn wigs at all times for no apparent reason.
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Old 2013-01-18, 18:15   Link #31680
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There's also the thing about race that is conveniently ignored.

Though I guess this isn't too much of an issue: the Second Beatrice would be part Japanese and part Italian, then Yasu would probably be more Japanese than Italian. It's just that all mentions of Piece-Beatrice by other characters refer to her as "the Witch of the Portrait" (including Battler at the end of EP1, iirc). Maybe they were only referring to dress and hair style? I dunno, if I was certain that it was the Witch of the Portrait, then I would base that on facial features as well.

"Hey guys it's Beatrice. But it's Asian." => All characters have Asian features so you can't find out by looking at the face.
or
"Hey guys it's Beatrice. An Italian one." => Yasu is noticeably Italian, or he found his mother's grave, cut her face off and is using it as a mask.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2013-01-18 at 18:28.
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