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Old 2013-01-15, 14:37   Link #461
SinsI
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Volume 5 was really WTF-worthy. They had all those Objects to protect that "sports" competition,why didn't they even try to contact them and ask "please, vaporise all the terrorists"?
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Old 2013-01-15, 20:02   Link #462
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
Volume 5 was really WTF-worthy. They had all those Objects to protect that "sports" competition,why didn't they even try to contact them and ask "please, vaporise all the terrorists"?

Aside from the multiple political issues, mostly being Nations not trusting each other, since when does civilians get to order military personnel around?

Plus the firepower of the Object is too overwhelming to be used on humans- These were meant to deter against other Objects or large machines attacks
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Old 2013-01-15, 20:51   Link #463
ArchmageXin
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It took me quite a bit of energy to accept this series. Yes, I love it now, but reading this series I can' t help but think of George Owell's 1984, and the infamous line "Euroasia was always at war with XXX"

Even though our MC's adventures are amazing and the princess is cute (and the commander is hot), but this level of corruption, this level of war and chaos, life must be full of misery.

I am not sure if the author ever realized what a dystopian world he is portraying.
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Old 2013-01-15, 21:33   Link #464
Chaos2Frozen
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I am not sure if the author ever realized what a dystopian world he is portraying.
I don't think it's any worse really- That's why he came up with the irony tagline "Clean War", to show how wars are mostly cockfights with Objects as their fighters. Nothing really large scale happens and most of the countries are declared 'safe', it's just that since they're in the Army, our protagonists get to see all the ugly side of humanity.
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Old 2013-01-15, 21:37   Link #465
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Funny thing is, it's been a while since I read an LN set in modern time where Japan is not the country the protagonist originated from
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Old 2013-01-15, 21:41   Link #466
Chaos2Frozen
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Funny thing is, it's been a while ince I read ln set in modern time where Japan is not the country the protagonist originated from
Maybe that would explain why Quenser and Heivia are both unabashedly perverted !

It's those damn Englishmen!

(They could also be French, but I wouldn't know...)
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Old 2013-01-16, 03:41   Link #467
SinsI
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Aside from the multiple political issues, mostly being Nations not trusting each other, since when does civilians get to order military personnel around?

Plus the firepower of the Object is too overwhelming to be used on humans- These were meant to deter against other Objects or large machines attacks
I'm not talking about using it on puny humans. I'm talking about using it on naval vessels that were going to attack those same Objects. I don't really buy the "political issues" reasoning - as long as all the Objects are informed, it shouldn't be a problem at all. All they had to do is to contact a proper local Government authority and ask them to pass a message to the Objects - "terrorists have captured ..., and will soon try to attack you, you might want to actually do your duty".
Since they had no problem coordinating their every move with Sponsors all the time, they had plenty of opportunities to do that.
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Old 2013-01-16, 04:15   Link #468
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
I'm not talking about using it on puny humans. I'm talking about using it on naval vessels that were going to attack those same Objects. I don't really buy the "political issues" reasoning - as long as all the Objects are informed, it shouldn't be a problem at all. All they had to do is to contact a proper local Government authority and ask them to pass a message to the Objects - "terrorists have captured ..., and will soon try to attack you, you might want to actually do your duty".
Since they had no problem coordinating their every move with Sponsors all the time, they had plenty of opportunities to do that.

I don't know if you know this but the line of communication from civilian to military isn't as smooth as picking up the phone and call. The sponsors are one thing, but military command? Especially those from other Nations? With a history of antagonism against each other? God knows how long it would take for them to go through the proper screenings to check and double check the information and whether or not you are part of the terrorist organization planning to mislead them.
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Old 2013-01-16, 04:45   Link #469
SinsI
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't know if you know this but the line of communication from civilian to military isn't as smooth as picking up the phone and call. The sponsors are one thing, but military command? Especially those from other Nations? With a history of antagonism against each other? God knows how long it would take for them to go through the proper screenings to check and double check the information and whether or not you are part of the terrorist organization planning to mislead them.
IMHO, it's just one extra step removed from "picking up the phone and call" - you have to contact the aforementioned authority first. Objects are there to protect them from exactly that kind of threat, so any such information should go through rather quickly (especially since it concerns the Object's safety).
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Old 2013-01-16, 04:56   Link #470
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
IMHO, it's just one extra step removed from "picking up the phone and call" - you have to contact the aforementioned authority first. Objects are there to protect them from exactly that kind of threat, so any such information should go through rather quickly (especially since it concerns the Object's safety).

Maybe if everything is calm and cool, but remember that there is an uproar from the initial attacks and the authorities are busy managing the chaos and not to mention trying to make sense of it all.

Even if there isn't, it still doesn't solve the problem of getting them to trust your information. You have to spend time convincing your people that you are helping them, which is a bit hard since you are not an offical member of the military. Then they would have to convince the other three factions to play ball, how long do you think all that would take?
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Old 2013-01-16, 06:17   Link #471
kuroishinigami
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And I was just about to reply with one word, bureaucracy, but it seems Chaos already explained it nicely

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2013-01-16 at 10:06.
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Old 2013-01-16, 06:20   Link #472
Chaos2Frozen
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Bureaucracy might be my favorite used plot device to prevent easy solutions, because that shit actually happens in real life
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Old 2013-01-16, 10:20   Link #473
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
IMHO, it's just one extra step removed from "picking up the phone and call" - you have to contact the aforementioned authority first. Objects are there to protect them from exactly that kind of threat, so any such information should go through rather quickly (especially since it concerns the Object's safety).
Was unable to replied in detail earlier. Okay, let's assume that what you said is true and the island authority believe the girl completely without even validating whether what she said is right or not(which is very unlikely, considering how sure they seem to be with their weaponry safety), next step done by the island authority will be contacting the representative of each nation to inform them of this news and convince them that this is true, which also will take some time considering how they all seem to believe that their object is vulnerable against anything other than another object.

After informing, they will then have to discuss the matter of who will take care of the matter, since after all, having all of the objects fire at once will just increase the possibility of friendly fire, whether accidental or not. These discussion will take a long time, because those warring country will suspect each other whether the other country won't use this chance to do something toward themselves. After the representative finish discussing, they then have to decide which object to use in order not to leak any of their object weakness to the enemy. Do you really think the enemy will wait for them that long before executing their plan?

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Bureaucracy might be my favorite used plot device to prevent easy solutions, because that shit actually happens in real life
Indeed. Bureaucracy is needed in order to keep thing smooth, but more often than not, it become a double edged sword that hinder smooth progression of anything in the end
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:09   Link #474
willx
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@SinsI -- I suspend disbelief in a lot of things when I read anime/LNs .. as long as it is not logically inconsistent with the "rules" or "laws of physics" of a particular created world than I give it a pass nowadays.

@Chaos & Kuroi -- Bureaucracy can suck .. but is easily cut through during times of actual crisis. You should see what happens to layers and layers of bureaucracy when a real chance of imminent loss of life (or money) is near .. :heH:
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:22   Link #475
Chaos2Frozen
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@Chaos & Kuroi -- Bureaucracy can suck .. but is easily cut through during times of actual crisis. You should see what happens to layers and layers of bureaucracy when a real chance of imminent loss of life (or money) is near ..
Yes but those are the special cases, not the norm.

And that's still dealing with only a single organization; try convincing the other three not to fire on you while you're charging your weapons.

To put it in another way, if the military can so easily believe and act on any information that comes their way first, what's stopping the bad guy from sending them false information?
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:58   Link #476
willx
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Yes but those are the special cases, not the norm.

And that's still dealing with only a single organization; try convincing the other three not to fire on you while you're charging your weapons.

To put it in another way, if the military can so easily believe and act on any information that comes their way first, what's stopping the bad guy from sending them false information?
Hey now, I was the one that admitted you have to suspend your disbelief --

But if you're going to go into a logic battle with me .. *puts on thinking cap* .. then bring it!

1) The Red Phone -- Major corporations, governments and the military always have secure channels within themselves and among each other to communicate these issues and cut through the bureaucracy.
2) Cost Benefit Analysis -- What's the cost of believing vs. the cost of not acting?
3) Magnitude of Response -- Tied to #2 and direct response to your query above, from past chapters we know Objects have weapons that are not meant to be used to fight other Objects but against conventional arms or infantry
4) Contingencies / Other Resources -- Even if you can't deploy another object all of these nations have other resources they could deploy. It's highly unlikely that with so many personnel to protect there isn't bountiful "conventional" military force to deploy in this instance
5) The very notification to each of these nations of a potential 3rd party attempting to provoke global war .. would already defeat it's point. It was a terrible plan to begin with -- they already said the laser wouldn't be enough to take out an Object. Dissemination of the information, even if they didn't act on it, but told their Objects simply to "stand by" and "be prepared for evasion action" would make the plan useless.

..And that's it for now from the top of my head.
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Old 2013-01-16, 18:16   Link #477
Chaos2Frozen
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I'm not saying it's 100% real world logical, but there's enough reason within the context to say why they didn't do this and that, rather than just dismissing it outright.

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Originally Posted by willx View Post
1) The Red Phone -- Major corporations, governments and the military always have secure channels within themselves and among each other to communicate these issues and cut through the bureaucracy.
To the world leaders yes, not small deployments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
2) Cost Benefit Analysis -- What's the cost of believing vs. the cost of not acting?
This one could go either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
3) Magnitude of Response -- Tied to #2 and direct response to your query above, from past chapters we know Objects have weapons that are not meant to be used to fight other Objects but against conventional arms or infantry
Except we know that these Objects were specifically deploy to deter against other Objects or big weapon attacks, not infantry which means they would be equipped as such.

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4) Contingencies / Other Resources -- Even if you can't deploy another object all of these nations have other resources they could deploy. It's highly unlikely that with so many personnel to protect there isn't bountiful "conventional" military force to deploy in this instance
The majority of the island's defenses are Unmanned vehicles, the security personnel are mostly privately hired by the Organizers.


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5) The very notification to each of these nations of a potential 3rd party attempting to provoke global war .. would already defeat it's point. It was a terrible plan to begin with -- they already said the laser wouldn't be enough to take out an Object. Dissemination of the information, even if they didn't act on it, but told their Objects simply to "stand by" and "be prepared for evasion action" would make the plan useless.
Again, there still is a trust issue- What if you send them this information in order to lock down the Objects' movement? To make them be on a look out for an attack that isn't going to happen while you carry out some other plan in the opposite direction?

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-01-16 at 18:34.
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Old 2013-01-16, 18:51   Link #478
willx
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I'm not saying it's 100% real world logical, but there's enough reason within the context to say why they didn't do this and that, rather than just dismissing it outright.
Well, suspending disbelief is when it's not logically consistent with what would happen in "100% real world logic" -- that's kind of the point of all of this ..

Re: "Red Phone" -- Yep, world leaders, but as we've seen in the Australia debacle and orders to Frolyetia (who conducts wars on her tablet) there's actually very few steps of separation between an object at "the top" (or at least close to the top)

Re: Magnitude of Response -- Don't think this is true .. Baby Magnum for example, even when it went to fight the Tri-Core was still equipped with a secondary laser weapon, "Killer Squall" used to kill flesh and blood soldiers. Heck, even the Break Carrier had a smaller caliber railgun used for anti-armor purposes and not Anti-Object purposes (it was aimed at Quenser's face.

Re: Contingencies -- I'm not referring to the island nation, I'm referring to the numerous infantry divisions and security on the island that were used to protect athletes. Now that the Technopics are over there is plenty of manpower to simply use conventional force. Even if a government balked at diverting an Object to investigate, sending an infantry squad or two wouldn't have caused much of a stir .. it sure didn't when Mariydi was running around like a lunatic.

Re: Warning -- Not sure I follow the point. Even if you "distrust" the warning itself .. there's no way that you won't be on "alert" even if you don't believe the content of the message 100%. The fact that they would be on alert and would know for certain where the attack emanated from (not an Object) would diffuse the very purpose of the whole scheme.
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Old 2013-01-16, 19:06   Link #479
Chaos2Frozen
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I guess that's the difference in understanding; for me the suspension of disbelief is for things that does not have a single reason for it to happen and if a reason could be given that somewhat fits within the context of what we were given then there's no need to suspend.

I cannot 100% say that absolutely no good would happen if they tried to contact the various military- maybe all four commanders that day were perfectly reasonable people, but at the same time you can't say that they wouldn't be complete dicks. So for me there is a good reason why they didn't waste that time because I've seen how hilariously inefficient the army can be first hand
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Old 2013-01-28, 04:33   Link #480
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Now that New Testament Toaru Majutsu no Index volume 6 translations out of the way, js06 continues with the translations for Heavy Object Volume 6.
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