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Old 2013-01-18, 18:33   Link #11681
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
She can't learn Styles, have you already forgotten about this?
Who says she hasn't surpassed that limit already?
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Old 2013-01-18, 19:50   Link #11682
K. Shiruto
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^Maybe because she already created her own style? Though not fully developed, that's it.
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Old 2013-01-18, 20:12   Link #11683
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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If she understands Styles enough now so that she can create her own, there should be no reason why she couldn't copy others with The End.
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Old 2013-01-18, 23:30   Link #11684
KLGChaos
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Wouldn't Zenkichi be a perfect person to learn styles? After all, the main basis of them is being able to understand the human heart, something that Medaka has trouble grasping, but seems to be his biggest strength? I suppose the fact that he's just a Normal might rule him out...
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Old 2013-01-19, 02:29   Link #11685
Guernsey
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Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.
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Old 2013-01-19, 05:32   Link #11686
Libros
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.
The saddest part about that statement is that it is 1000% true. It couldn't possibly be any more correct. Not even kidding right now. Zenkichi could have done absolutely nothing more than what he has already done. Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here? Nope. Could his parasite vision have helped? Nope. Could his kicks have helped? Nope. Could his status as Student council president have helped? Guess what? The answer is still no. It's just sad to see a character that useless.
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Old 2013-01-19, 06:06   Link #11687
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Libros View Post
The saddest part about that statement is that it is 1000% true. It couldn't possibly be any more correct. Not even kidding right now. Zenkichi could have done absolutely nothing more than what he has already done. Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here? Nope. Could his parasite vision have helped? Nope. Could his kicks have helped? Nope. Could his status as Student council president have helped? Guess what? The answer is still no. It's just sad to see a character that useless.
Nah man Zendagawd is going to save the day and the manga is going to be called Zenkichi Box in a few issues time.
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Old 2013-01-19, 10:59   Link #11688
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Wouldn't Zenkichi be a perfect person to learn styles? After all, the main basis of them is being able to understand the human heart, something that Medaka has trouble grasping, but seems to be his biggest strength?
True enough. The Zenkichi who delivered that speech to the students of Hakoniwa, under the protection of Devil Style, was almost too human, imho.

Although I don't think the poor guy is learning a style anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey
Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.
So sad, but so true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libros
Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here?
If you're referring to Devil Style, I actually wonder about that.

Devil Style also had the awesomely stated ability of neutralizing the inherent Pluses and Minuses of Fate, basically made it so that fate couldn't interfere with events.
This is why Ajimu referred to him as a Zero, and why she said that he'd abandoned all the privileges of a main-character.

More importantly, it's also why he was able to beat Medaka in the first place.

And, if you recall, Iihiko is the sort of main character that always wins. He was a complete Gary Stu who once saved the entire world, he was the prototypical hero. Ajimu indicates that that's why he's so powerful. Since she stated that in a clash of main characters, the most heroic one will in. Saving the World > saving Hakoniwa.

But the root and essence of their power is still fate, being the main character who always succeeds.

So I can't help but wonder how powerful Iihiko would really be when unaided by fate. Medaka should've trumped Zenkichi in a popularity contest, normally, but without aid from, well, God, I guess, she got 2% of the votes.
Of course assuming that Zenkichi has lost Devil Style, which I think that, while a travesty, is likely.

Ah sorry for using that to mumble my thoughts. This isn't a response to anything you actually said.
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Old 2013-01-19, 11:07   Link #11689
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Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?
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Old 2013-01-19, 11:15   Link #11690
Randrak42
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It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."
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Old 2013-01-19, 11:19   Link #11691
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."
Would definitely be interesting in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor
Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?
I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:18   Link #11692
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."
At least we'd get some acknowledgment that it exists again!
But really, who's left that even knows about Devil Style? Naze and Hanten'in, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.
I can't wait until we find out what her deal is. She's obviously hiding something.
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:23   Link #11693
Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."
It would had been except that the later chapters were nothing but coincidence. Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Would definitely be interesting in my view.



I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.
Kanome could had done something with his style yet he didn't do anything aginst Iihiko.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?
Because Zenikichi didn't really do anything that would help anyone yet alone Medaka as of late. Zenikichi could fare well against Normals and Specials but against Abnormals, Minuses, Not Equals, Styles and Iihiko, he gets stomped. Zenikichi is Kumagawa lite, he can win but he cannot win of his own accord and when he loses it is usually to make someone else look good.
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:33   Link #11694
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Kanome could had done something with his style yet he didn't do anything aginst Iihiko.
Kamome's Style seems to work in tandem with his two Skills, which is why his whole combat style is called the "Kamome System".
While that injured and without being able to set up the system, I doubt he can do anything.
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Old 2013-01-19, 13:43   Link #11695
DawnEmperor
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@Guernsey Does his victory against Munakata(and no, I don't really think "Munakata not really wanting to kill" should downplay it considering the strategy adaptation)and Nienami, winning the election, snapping back Medaka II not mean anything? Granted, he's certainly not the strongest character given the absurd levels in the series, but he has some pivotal roles in the series.

Besides, why does he need to specifically achieve something alone? Part of his character is being able to accept others
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Old 2013-01-19, 14:38   Link #11696
Libros
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Would definitely be interesting in my view.



I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.
Is it odd that throughout this series I've sort of been hoping Zenkichi would, how can I put it...match up to the rest of the group? I mean, by himself, he's, I guess anyway, superhuman. He knows savate, has the devil thing among other strengths like patience, kindness, and is just generally a good guy, and under normal circumstances, should have things going for him, he could be president of the fucking world with no problems but in this story he's just..dogfood. I hate that.I just hope he has finally, after the long and painful fall finally hit rock bottom in uselessness , so he can finally improve. Since it doesn't seem like he'll improve until he hits that point or at least till he realizes and understands he's at that point and tries to do something about it. Like a pokemon that only evolves into a legendary at level 100 and gains stupidly off the wall stats but until then has to use 40 in all stats until then. In the end you could have just leveled a Medaka/Kuma/Ashinin/ Shiranui in half the time and gotten the same if not better results at lower levels(Note to self: use less pokemon analogies ). /officially end rant of disappointment in Zenkichi.

Last edited by Libros; 2013-01-19 at 17:22.
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Old 2013-01-19, 16:36   Link #11697
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
@Guernsey Does his victory against Munakata(and no, I don't really think "Munakata not really wanting to kill" should downplay it considering the strategy adaptation)and Nienami, winning the election, snapping back Medaka II not mean anything? Granted, he's certainly not the strongest character given the absurd levels in the series, but he has some pivotal roles in the series.

Besides, why does he need to specifically achieve something alone? Part of his character is being able to accept others
Um... yes. They don't mean anything. You already mentioned Munakata doing everything in his power to avoid killing, not to mention his inherent lack of skill with weapons; Nienami's style explicitly makes her do things that are less likely, which means that she only lost to Zen because of how useless he was; he only won the election because Ajimu is all about doing the impossible and she was supporting him (more directly because of Hanten's skill creation skill), ie: he was Ajimu's pawn and anyone else would have also worked; and Medaka snapped herself back with mind-reading powers. Not to mention that "snapping back" has later been shown to be morally ambiguous at best since the election victory was all about undoing the damage Zen did there.

Zenkichi's story is one of meaningless victories. That's his entire character arc. This is no less important to who he is than Medaka's winning everything and Kumagawa losing everything. He can sympathize with him, sure, but he's not important and never will be (unless something drastic happens to him analogous to Medaka's "death" just now).
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Old 2013-01-19, 17:28   Link #11698
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libros
Is it odd that throughout this series I've sort of been hoping Zenkichi would, how can I put it...match up to the rest of the group? I mean, by himself, he's, I guess anyway, superhuman. He knows savate, has the devil thing among other strengths like patience, kindness, and is just generally a good guy, and under normal circumstances, should have things going for him but in this story he's just..dogfood. I hate that.I just hope he has finally, after the long and painful fall finally hit rock bottom in usefulness, so he can finally improve. Since it doesn't seem like he'll improve until he hits that point or at least till he realizes and acknowledges that point. Like a pokemon that only evolves into a legendary at level 100 but until then has to use 95 in all stats until then. /officially end rant of disappointment in Zenkichi.
I see what you're getting at.

But I don't particularly agree with an extremely powerful Zenkichi, at least, not one in the same way that Medaka, Kumagawa or Ajimu are extremely powerful.

I think that if you just gave him an extremely powerful abnormalitie(s) to rely on, he'd lose part of that normality and that deep understanding of the human heart that he gained - or at least it'd be contradictory to that.

I'd like Zenkichi's strenght to come from that, just like it always has.

And, as a bright poster stated before, a style seems to fit him perfectly, in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
he only won the election because Ajimu is all about doing the impossible and she was supporting him (more directly because of Hanten's skill creation skill), ie: he was Ajimu's pawn and anyone else would have also worked;
Ahem.

Someone is forgetting these little pages;

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


As Ajimu herself said; the reason for Zenkichi's crushing victory for Medaka, came from him and him alone. Plus, you know, he's the one who thought of and presented his thoughts in speech-form to the students.

There's nothing demeaning about a victory were your friends had been helping you in the side-lines. Zenkichi knows his limits, he has a skill for that, actually. it's because he realizes his limits that he has friends, and a council to aid him. That's not the same as accepting a meaningless victory or a defeat.
And his victory, while unsatisfying to us readers because Medaka was not destroyed like we wanted it, carried meaning to Zenkichi. Alot of it, actually.

Accepting those limits, and finding a path to victory anyway, is what he's all about, not that his entire accomplishments in life has been unimportant and meaningless like his character.

*Like against Kei, where he set a trap before-hand.

*Like against Nienami, who not only had a weakness to bluntness, but was not using her style to full power.

*Like against Medaka, where he couldn't beat her under the universe's current rules, changing those around with Devil Style.

This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey
It would had been except that the later chapters were nothing but coincidence. Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.
For the recond, though, I agree with this.

But this has to do with more than just Zenkichi, although he is a big part of it.

Since the last two arcs, the manga hasn't reflected it'self the way one would want or expect, save for a select few chapters.

I don't know why he re-hashed the plot-point of Medaka's sueness just to trash it again(albeit completely), in chapter 178. We kinda already had that in the True Flask Plan Arc. Which gave us two arcs that felt terrible, for the most part.

Nevertheless, I agree with what you said. The amount of disregard to the past changes in the True Flask Plan arc has been turning a certain amount of people off. Alot, if you can count online forums, alot of which I visit, that voiced distaste on that.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-01-19 at 18:03.
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Old 2013-01-19, 18:04   Link #11699
Libros
I never hid my hurts.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I see what you're getting at.

But I don't particularly agree with an extremely powerful Zenkichi, at least, not one in the same way that Medaka, Kumagawa or Ajimu are extremely powerful.

I think that if you just gave him an extremely powerful abnormalitie(s) to rely on, he'd lose part of that normality and that deep understanding of the human heart that he gained - or at least it'd be contradictory to that.

I'd like Zenkichi's strenght to come from that, just like it always has.

And, as a bright poster stated before, a style seems to fit him perfectly, in my opinion.




Ahem.

Someone is forgetting these little pages;

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


As Ajimu herself said; the reason for Zenkichi's crushing victory for Medaka, came from him and him alone. Plus, you know, he's the one who thought of and presented his thoughts in speech-form to the students.

There's nothing demeaning about a victory were your friends had been helping you in the side-lines. Zenkichi knows his limits, he has a skill for that, actually. it's because he realizes his limits that he has friends, and a council to aid him. That's not the same as accepting a meaningless victory or a defeat.
And his victory, while unsatisfying to us readers because Medaka was not destroyed like we wanted it, carried meaning to Zenkichi. Alot of it, actually.

Accepting those limits, and finding a path to victory anyway, is what he's all about, not that his entire accomplishments in life has been unimportant and meaningless like his character.

*Like against Kei, where he set a trap before-hand.

*Like against Nienami, who not only had a weakness to bluntness, but was not using her style to full power.

*Like against Medaka, where he couldn't beat her under the universe's current rules, changing those around with Devil Style.

This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.
Alright, I guess I used a bad Pokemon Analogy. What I want from Zenkichi is for him to not reach top tier(that's medaka and everyone else remotely important in the arcs the story goes through generally exceptions would be like the student president election one), no, that's too high a jump from his place in the Medakaverse right now. It's like telling a cat to explode and then transform into a Tiger and actually be dissapointed/shocked that it something that absurd didn't happen. No, all I want is for him to be useful. Any style that allows him to contribute to the overall welfare or success of the group's mission instead of just calming Medaka/other deadly female when furious down when she goes berserk every odd while. And channeling captain obvious every odd while. Maybe kicks that could break through walls or healing, or Evil eye that knocks out abnormals/Zeros/anyone of your choosing(person reading this) that's all. I put the legendary pokemon there because well..everyone from Kuma to Medaka to Iiihiko is well above that level and it seems like you have to be there to fight in that league, not well maybe but at least survive 2-4 shots and land decent damage to enemies above assistant body gaurd of the 2013th body gaurd.

Zenkichi is like the guy in this video.

He struggles with grunt level opponents. I find that unacceptable for someone in the main group. He may not be the best fighter but come on. True they are Medakaverse level grunts so to be fair they are pretty strong but still if he's got no strength, then go for skill or strategy, healing or long range fighting become a freaking wizard or something. It just sucks that it's taking so long for him to figure out where he's meant to be on the power chart. And great, I'm ranting again..Ugh.

Last edited by Libros; 2013-01-19 at 18:24.
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Old 2013-01-19, 18:26   Link #11700
Lupus753
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Wolfenstein, those pictures aren't showing up. Is this a problem on my end or your end?
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