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Old 2013-01-19, 18:53   Link #1241
GundamFan0083
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Oh you want to play THAT game?

Burglars shot in southeast Oklahoma City, police said
http://newsok.com/burglars-shot-in-s...headline_crime

Police said five people were trying to burglarize a home at the 1500 block of SE 45 when the female homeowner shot one of them with her gun.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:03   Link #1242
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Oh you want to play THAT game?

Burglars shot in southeast Oklahoma City, police said
http://newsok.com/burglars-shot-in-s...headline_crime

Police said five people were trying to burglarize a home at the 1500 block of SE 45 when the female homeowner shot one of them with her gun.
But... but 2 people were hurt due to gun violence! Sure they might have been thugs, but that woman had no right to resort to violence. She should have just said "please don't rob me" and they would have left!

Oh wait...
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:13   Link #1243
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Which pretty much falls in line what what monir said = perception.

But there is a clear distinction here - in one you blame the root cause of of said death - the driver who decided to get drunk and get in a car, yet in the other you're blaming the tool - the gun the criminal used.

Again, I understand the sentiment, but is it a good way to craft your policies based on emotions?
Laws are not particularly logical things, they stem from people's feeling of right and wrong.

It is the evil person whose responsible for the gun death, and not the gun itself, but it's impossible for us to cure the evil that lies in men's hearts. The next best thing is to neuter people so they lack the means to carry out their intended plans.

A lot of it comes down to a difference of opinion, one group views gun ownership as a right, the other as a privilege, similar to driving a car. If you were a known reckless driver, who had caused many car related deaths and accidents in the past, most people would argue that that person should not be allowed to use a car. Likewise, if you're a person likely to have evil intentions (EG by being mentally ill, or a known criminal), then those people should be restricted from having privilege of owning a gun to deal death with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
How many times do I have to tell you it is not my definition.
It is SCOTUS that set the bar in US vs. Miller, not I.
Nerve gas is not used by miltia forces.
So if SCOTUS wished they could set the bar to include "assault weapons" (whatever it chooses to define that to be).

Quote:
Tryanny comes in many forms, not just the so called "tyranny of the majority."
And there is no such thing as an "assault weapon" that is a propaganda term like Edward Bernays' "Torches of Freedom." Same type of nonsense.
People refer to a certain class of weapons as "assault weapons". It might be a bit nebulous, but my point is that if we can define nerve gas as "not being a militia weapon" we can define anything as not being a militia weapon. SCOTUS could choose to define just pitchforks as being a "militia weapon". That Firearms are a "militia weapon" and Nerve Gas isn't is quite arbitrary.

And why shouldn't people be able to keep Nerve Gas? It's not the Nerve Gas that kills, it's the person that released the Nerve Gas. Why shouldn't law abiding citizens be allowed to use Nerve Gas to defend their homes and families?

Quote:
I agree, which is why there is such a need in this country to reinvigorate the actual (Article 1, Section 8) militia, so as to put an end to what remains of the paramilitary groups like the Aryan Nations and such.
I would personally feel that any militia group should be strictly affiliated with the government, but your miller case disagrees with that (any armed group can be a "militia", regardless of it's stated goals). Hate groups should not have their right to bear arms protected, as frankly they are an enemy of the state and society at large.

Quote:
And further erosion of the 2nd amendment would only hasten that slide towards a "secure" society, be it theocratic under Grover Norquist's Dominionist movement, or Statist under George Soros' more socialistic movements. Tyranny comes from both the left and the right, make no mistake about that.
Pope Gregory IX's inquisition was no different than Stalin's reign of terror in my opinion.
Certainly. But other western nations that have extensive gun control are surely not Stalinist or Dominionist tyrannies?

But it might be correct to secure the other more important civic rights first before regulating guns further.

Quote:
See now that is what scares the crap out of me on the issue of revolution in the US.
I don't welcome it.
I don't view it as some grandiose thing, and I sure as hell don't want it.
And yet too many Americans bandy the word around too freely. I do not believe the framers of the constitution intended the second amendment as a means to enable the citizenry to overthrow the state if necessary, as many other parts of the constitution are specifically designed to check against mob rule. It was intended to enable the people to defend the United States against outside threats, which were many at the time, not least the British, native Americans Loyalists in the North, and slave revolts in the South (Like the Haitian revolution).

The idea was to construct a state with sufficient checks and balances that popular revolution would never be necessary. Popular revolution never leads to as good outcomes as gradual legislative change, and they were well aware of that. The American revolution was not a revolution in the way that the French Revolution was. There was no radical attempt to remake society along idealistic lines.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:26   Link #1244
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Oh you want to play THAT game?

Burglars shot in southeast Oklahoma City, police said
http://newsok.com/burglars-shot-in-s...headline_crime

Police said five people were trying to burglarize a home at the 1500 block of SE 45 when the female homeowner shot one of them with her gun.
You SHOULD have like 100+ more articles like that.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:40   Link #1245
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ITT: people who do no research at all

Also, I'm waiting for improved battery technology so I can carry a high-powered laser. You think bullets do a lot of damage...
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:45   Link #1246
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
You SHOULD have like 100+ more articles like that.
Actually, there are thousands of such articles every year. The national corporate media simply doesn't cover it (and that includes the "local news" that is owned by those corporations - Belos, Clear Channel, Fox, Disney, etc).

Note that guns do not have to be fired to be effective - they have deterrence value. The sound of a shotgun being prepared for firing has caused many a home invader to reverse course.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:51   Link #1247
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Exactly, you're arming yourself to defend yourself against a criminal. One who is very unlikely to be a law abiding citizen and throw away his gun should they ever be banned. Guns will always be easy to obtain for criminals; they may go up in price as more are moved out of circulation, but they will always have the means to obtain them. Meanwhile, those who choose to defend themselves with a firearm have no means of access to these guns without doing so illegally. Regardless, whether he is using a knife or a gun to break in, a gun is still the better option to defend yourself with. I'd rather not get stabbed, tyvm.

And that's simply not true. You have the fortification of your own house. If you catch him before he completely breaks in, you've already won. If you have a firearm and are not afraid to use it, that it.
Guns, easy to obtain? Only in America, and by unfortunate proximity Mexico.

In the rest of the world, only organised crime use them. Guns are too valuable for normal criminals to use. They are status symbols for people who know people. America is not the universe.
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Old 2013-01-19, 20:43   Link #1248
Kyuu
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
ITT: people who do no research at all

Also, I'm waiting for improved battery technology so I can carry a high-powered laser. You think bullets do a lot of damage...
Hey, if energy shields are invented at roughly the same time... then no problemo.
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Old 2013-01-19, 20:55   Link #1249
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
ITT: people who do no research at all

Also, I'm waiting for improved battery technology so I can carry a high-powered laser. You think bullets do a lot of damage...
I'm sure you'll see a "Make laser weapons that can fire a beam other than stun illegal" campaigns. Not from me though. I'll be too busy writing my name in the moon.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:05   Link #1250
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm sure you'll see a "Make laser weapons that can fire a beam other than stun illegal" campaigns. Not from me though. I'll be too busy writing my name in the moon.
sorry, there is only one set of names approved for carving onto the moon:

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Old 2013-01-19, 21:08   Link #1251
Dr. Casey
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I has an idea for how school shootings and the like can be prevented. Install full body scanners in every hallway of every public building. Program super advanced, accurate AI to shoot a powerful tranquilizer dart into the offending gun wielder the instant the presence of a gun is detected. The unconscious body can then be dragged somewhere to be interrogated once he or she wakes up to determine their motives. Voila! Shootings inside public buildings prevented forever.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:15   Link #1252
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
So if SCOTUS wished they could set the bar to include "assault weapons" (whatever it chooses to define that to be).
Unfortunately, that is the case.
However, such a ruling would probably not be followed by the citzenry and thus we are back to the problem of revolution and the very real dangers of where that could lead (like a Christian Theocracy for example, not my idea of a nice place to live).

Quote:
People refer to a certain class of weapons as "assault weapons". It might be a bit nebulous, but my point is that if we can define nerve gas as "not being a militia weapon" we can define anything as not being a militia weapon. SCOTUS could choose to define just pitchforks as being a "militia weapon". That Firearms are a "militia weapon" and Nerve Gas isn't is quite arbitrary.
No the SCOTUS was clear about what arms are militia weaponry.
They based their view on what the founders had stated.
Nerve Gas, nuclear weapons, or other weapons of mass destruction are not useful to the common defense since they inflict far more damage then they are worth.
Thus the argument breaks down quickly since in no way is Nerve Gas a standard weapon used by police forces and/or infantry.
So the idea that Nerve Gas has any relation to the common defense of the nation from a militia standpoint is untenable.

Quote:
And why shouldn't people be able to keep Nerve Gas? It's not the Nerve Gas that kills, it's the person that released the Nerve Gas. Why shouldn't law abiding citizens be allowed to use Nerve Gas to defend their homes and families?
DQ, knock it off. That comment is nonsense and I can see right through it. It is a thinly disquised attack and does little to improve the discussion.

Quote:
I would personally feel that any militia group should be strictly affiliated with the government, but your miller case disagrees with that (any armed group can be a "militia", regardless of it's stated goals). Hate groups should not have their right to bear arms protected, as frankly they are an enemy of the state and society at large.
The militia of the US is affiliated with the US govement as per the constitution and TItle 10, section 311 of the USC (the unorganized militia).
The two are inseparable without amendment to the constitution.
After all, the Federal government was formed by the US constitution.

As for hate groups.
If the hate group is comprised of US citizens, they have the right to keep and bear arms just like they have the right to speak their mind. If they break the law through murder, or other means, they loose the right. But since we are not a tyranny, the government does not have the power to deprive them of the right to keep and bear arms.
The New Black Panther Party being a good example of a group that is a hate group, but its members are protected by the 2nd amendment.

Quote:
Certainly. But other western nations that have extensive gun control are surely not Stalinist or Dominionist tyrannies?
Other western countries have seen a reduction in freedoms, from the Press to speech, to other freedoms coming from the EU.

We here in the US are much farther along though since we're corporatist at this point and Europe hasn't succumbed to that yet, but don't worry the EU is working on it.

With that I'd say that citizens of western civilization should heed Johann Von Goethe when he said:

"None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes."

Wise words.

Quote:
And yet too many Americans bandy the word around too freely. I do not believe the framers of the constitution intended the second amendment as a means to enable the citizenry to overthrow the state if necessary, as many other parts of the constitution are specifically designed to check against mob rule. It was intended to enable the people to defend the United States against outside threats, which were many at the time, not least the British, native Americans Loyalists in the North, and slave revolts in the South (Like the Haitian revolution).
The founders did intend for the 2nd amendmnet to be used to put down a dictatorship in order to RESTORE the constitution and/or preserve the republic. They were clear about this in the Federalist papers and Anti-Federalist papers.

Sam Adams and George Washington summed up the attitude quite well.

Sam:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

GW:

Government is not reason;

It is not eloquence;

It is force!

Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”


To be honest the founders didn't care what arms the citizens had, so long as those arms were on par with what the regular troops possessed in order to prevent the need for a revolt against tyranny.
Remember, these men had just fought a war against a tyrant, they knew what that meant and sought to prevent Americans of the future from having to do what they did.

Quote:
The idea was to construct a state with sufficient checks and balances that popular revolution would never be necessary. Popular revolution never leads to as good outcomes as gradual legislative change, and they were well aware of that. The American revolution was not a revolution in the way that the French Revolution was. There was no radical attempt to remake society along idealistic lines.
I agree the American revolution was certainly different from the French, however, the militia was intended as insurance that the constitution would not be subverted and if it was, the 2nd amendment would provide the last line of defense against all enemies both foreign and domestic.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:16   Link #1253
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What does that have to do with this thread?
a Lot if you have been watching the news. They keep blaming the shootings on Video games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
ITT: people who do no research at all

Also, I'm waiting for improved battery technology so I can carry a high-powered laser. You think bullets do a lot of damage...
Sadly I'm the only other person here who gets it.

Syn and her Energy Weapons perk.
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Last edited by Kyero Fox; 2013-01-19 at 21:30.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:18   Link #1254
GundamFan0083
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As for Laser guns....somebody is already working on that.



Pretty cool.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:18   Link #1255
Dr. Casey
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Yeah, videogames have been a scapegoat for ages. That damn Pac-Man is what led to someone shooting Ronald Reagan in '81.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:36   Link #1256
Kyero Fox
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Yeah, videogames have been a scapegoat for ages. That damn Pac-Man is what led to someone shooting Ronald Reagan in '81.
Don't forget Resident Evil caused the Homeless People Shootings. All those poor homeless people, mistaken for zombies.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:46   Link #1257
Solace
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Yeah, videogames have been a scapegoat for ages. That damn Pac-Man is what led to someone shooting Ronald Reagan in '81.
"If Pac-Man had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

- Marcus Brigstocke

Of course, he meant it as tongue in cheek commentary because we like to blame everything for everything. Elvis corrupted the minds of young women. Rock and Roll was the devil. Dungeons and Dragons created mass murderers. Playing Chicago records backwards was satanic speech. Tim Allen Christmas movies were torture.

To be fair, at least one of those holds some truth.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:59   Link #1258
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Oh Oh! It was the tim Allen santa movies ones wasn't it!?
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Old 2013-01-19, 22:15   Link #1259
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Oh Oh! It was the tim Allen santa movies ones wasn't it!?
Close!

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-01-19, 23:04   Link #1260
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Unfortunately, that is the case.
However, such a ruling would probably not be followed by the citzenry and thus we are back to the problem of revolution and the very real dangers of where that could lead (like a Christian Theocracy for example, not my idea of a nice place to live).
I don't think we should form laws based on "appeasement" thinking. If people dislike a law they should campaign against it peacefully as the constitution entitles them to do, and either vote in a government to repeal it, or challenge the law before the courts.

If they even threaten to take up arms in order to threaten the government into changing the law, they should be put on trial for treason. Fortunately our armed forces are currently powerful enough to put down such domestic terrorists.

The problem with the current talk around the second amendment is that it encourages this kind of thinking, the idea that you can intimidate the government in order to get your way.


Quote:
No the SCOTUS was clear about what arms are militia weaponry.
They based their view on what the founders had stated.
Nerve Gas, nuclear weapons, or other weapons of mass destruction are not useful to the common defense since they inflict far more damage then they are worth.
Thus the argument breaks down quickly since in no way is Nerve Gas a standard weapon used by police forces and/or infantry.
So the idea that Nerve Gas has any relation to the common defense of the nation from a militia standpoint is untenable.
Some might argue that guns inflict more damage then is necessary to the common defense (that would be the belief in Britain and Ireland), and for the uncommon defense ("war") we have the armed forces, reservists and if necessary conscription.

The difference between nerve gas and guns is merely one of degree. There isn't a fundamental difference between the two (besides the fact that one is really over the top, but many would say the same of a machine gun). The question is where you put the post that seperates "necessary for the common defense" from "over the top weapon of mass destruction". Right now that line is around a rocket launcher, but there's no reason it could be shifted somewhat to include, say, all semi-automatic weaponry.

Quote:
The militia of the US is affiliated with the US govement as per the constitution and TItle 10, section 311 of the USC (the unorganized militia).
The two are inseparable without amendment to the constitution.
After all, the Federal government was formed by the US constitution.
What if the "militia" engages in armed insurrection against the US government, or indeed other parts of the "militia"?
Quote:
As for hate groups.
If the hate group is comprised of US citizens, they have the right to keep and bear arms just like they have the right to speak their mind. If they break the law through murder, or other means, they loose the right. But since we are not a tyranny, the government does not have the power to deprive them of the right to keep and bear arms.
The New Black Panther Party being a good example of a group that is a hate group, but its members are protected by the 2nd amendment.
I think a more sensible approach would be to require a states reason for keeping arms, and if that reason is being part of the organised militia, then fine. If it's simply self defense you should be limited to hand guns. If you're not part of the state militia, you should not be able to acquire a more powerful weapon, as if why should people have a right to keep arms if they are not doing so as part of being a militia?

Quote:
With that I'd say that citizens of western civilization should heed Johann Von Goethe when he said:

"None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes."

Wise words.
Perhaps the second amendment gives a false sense of security. The gun makes you think you're free, when in fact you aren't.

Quote:
The founders did intend for the 2nd amendmnet to be used to put down a dictatorship in order to RESTORE the constitution and/or preserve the republic. They were clear about this in the Federalist papers and Anti-Federalist papers.
In all likelihood, if the people rose up against an elected "tyrant" the last thing they would likely do is restore the constitution, they'd probably create some kind of "people's dictatorship", be it fascistic or communist.
Quote:
I agree the American revolution was certainly different from the French, however, the militia was intended as insurance that the constitution would not be subverted and if it was, the 2nd amendment would provide the last line of defense against all enemies both foreign and domestic.
The issue is that tyranny seldom comes from within the government, more usually it comes from without, from the most radical elements of society arming themselves to overthrow the government.

Even if they're just a minority, they can still use deceit and intimidation to overcome the greater majority and take control of the state, like in Italy or Germany. If you want an education in how democracy is destroyed, reading about those two is quite informative.

And if you get sustained paramilitary activity, where civil institutions are devalued in favor of physical force, you end out with Northern Ireland, which while it's come a long way, is still by far the poorest part of the British Isles, whereas in the past it was one of the wealthiest (many of Britain's greatest ships, including the Titanic, were built in Belfast).
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