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Old 2013-01-19, 19:19   Link #11701
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libros View Post
Alright, I guess I used a bad Pokemon Analogy. What I want from Zenkichi is for him to not reach top tier(that's medaka and everyone else remotely important in the arcs the story goes through generally exceptions would be like the student president election one), no, that's too high a jump from his place in the Medakaverse right now. It's like telling a cat to explode and then transform into a Tiger and actually be dissapointed/shocked that it something that absurd didn't happen. No, all I want is for him to be useful. Any style that allows him to contribute to the overall welfare or success of the group's mission instead of just calming Medaka/other deadly female when furious down when she goes berserk every odd while. And channeling captain obvious every odd while. Maybe kicks that could break through walls or healing, or Evil eye that knocks out abnormals/Zeros/anyone of your choosing(person reading this) that's all. I put the legendary pokemon there because well..everyone from Kuma to Medaka to Iiihiko is well above that level and it seems like you have to be there to fight in that league, not well maybe but at least survive 2-4 shots and land decent damage to enemies above assistant body gaurd of the 2013th body gaurd.

Zenkichi is like the guy in this video.

He struggles with grunt level opponents. I find that unacceptable for someone in the main group. He may not be the best fighter but come on. True they are Medakaverse level grunts so to be fair they are pretty strong but still if he's got no strength, then go for skill or strategy, healing or long range fighting become a freaking wizard or something. It just sucks that it's taking so long for him to figure out where he's meant to be on the power chart. And great, I'm ranting again..Ugh.
I think it's fine to rant now and then. Your complaint isn't unheard of and it isn't completely ridiculous.

You simply want him to be more useful when it comes to a combat scenario. Of course, it's hard because Zenkichi is a "normal" guy(who can run up buildings but you get me).

But, hey, he did improve intellectualy.

Remember when he cracked Medaka's code, like, instantly? Something the resident genius, Naze, couldn't do right off the bat?

Maybe he just felt a physical improvement wouldn't have been as effective than an emotional/intellectual one. He was getting stronger to beat Medaka, and his victory over her definitely didn't involve beating her to a pulp.

Regardless, as long as Zenkichi dosen't get a plus or a minus and becomes over-powered through those, I wouldn't mind to see him, and other characters, become more useful in combat, since Medaka is pretty much the only one who fights the villains nowadays(again...ugh). But, again, I think that won't happen. Mostly because I think nishio likes that Zenkichi is weak, and his strenght comes more from his will-power and decisions than actual power.

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Originally Posted by Lupus
Wolfenstein, those pictures aren't showing up. Is this a problem on my end or your end?
Ah, that would probably be my end. Let me see if I can fix those:

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Old 2013-01-19, 20:00   Link #11702
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^Thanks, Wolf. I can see them now.
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Old 2013-01-19, 20:58   Link #11703
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.
I don't think there's been any indication that anything has changed with regards to Devil Style. People were speculating previously that his Altered God Mode (Zenkichi Ver.) had been made from it, but the latest battle with Shiranui cleared that up that it was actually Parasite Seeing which she converted.


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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.
While I totally agree with you that Nishio's intention is not to shit on the hard work of people, I do think that one of the very recurrent themes of the story (particularly Zenkichi's story) is that pure effort alone cannot always transfer into important results or significance. That is one of those common shounen themes/ideals which Nishio has used Medaka Box to criticize implicitly. It's something of an irony.

Remember at the start of the series? One of the points where Medaka and Zenkichi were highlighted to "understand" each other was that they shared an ideal where hard work could accomplish anything. Rather, any opportunity to work hard was ideal. Their belief in this reasoning was given as the reason why they chose Maguro's "hellish training" instead of the "sleep while I make modifications" route before attacking the Flask Plan. It was also her belief in this attitude which let Medaka believe back then that she is "not anyone special, just a normal girl".

However, in the end (as Anshin'in revealed in her talk with Kumagawa) it is not effort or ideals which determine victory in Shounen manga. Instead, the answer is simple and cruel: victory belongs to those with power, the "special", the "chosen", the "main characters". That is the concept through which Zenkichi exists as a metafictional criticism.

Put another way: Zenkichi exists, in many ways, as an example of a "perfect" shounen main character. He has all the qualities of one: hard working, determined, dedicated to a positive ideal. He's great at making friends, great at connecting to others, great at making the audience sympathize with him. Nonetheless, he is not the main character--and it is precisely through this contradiction that Nishio reveals the falsehood, the shallowness of shounen manga. Only the actual main character wins; only the actual main character matters. In the sense that "main characters" are the lucky chosen ones who have special talents, backgrounds, or opportunities, perhaps this is not so different from reality.


The most impressive and interesting result for Zenkichi, in terms of character development, is that he was forced to realize this. Thanks to Anshin'in, thanks to the True Flask Plan. And on that occasion, rather than choose to become just like any other main character, chosen and blessed by some special "talent" or circumstance or ability, Zenkichi chose to go another way instead. Zenkichi chose to reject the benefits of the main character system/trope/convention, choosing principle over self-benefit. If the world really is so unjust and unequal as to determine people's fates by sheer luck and unfair advantages--then he would not self-servingly grab onto a chance some arbitrary being had given him, to conveniently place himself above other people (especially, particularly, a person he loved and admired in the first place).

If you think about it though, in some ways what Zenkichi's solution actually was is rather cruel. Devil Style acts almost in the same way as BookMaker in that instead of raising Zenkichi himself up, it pulls other people down to his level. It's just that instead of directly acting on some other person's abilities, Devil Style works on the more nebulous, indirect concept of "fate".

(This comparison can act as a direct explanation for why Kumagawa couldn't defeat Medaka, but Zenkichi did. Despite the fact that Kumagawa successfully used BookMaker to even his and Medaka's abilities, as a "villain" against a "main character" he was nonetheless fated to lose. However, by obtaining a skill which directly cancelled fate and choosing a fight against Medaka which avoided a contest of ability, Zenkichi managed to bring about a win.)


However, the point to be made is that Zenkichi has chosen to directly reject what, in reality, determines how to make yourself matter or to win. Zenkichi has chosen to reject god-given luck, or advantageous talents or abilities. In essence, the effect of Zenkichi's decision was to say "I do not need to be a main character; to matter in the grand scheme of things, or to win. I choose to instead live as myself, as a normal person like my fellows and those around me, and take pride in whatever I make out of my life in that manner." Absolutely a human and inspirational message. However, at the same time, it's a decision which by definition removes any necessity to make him look good, feed him impressive or significant wins in the story, or portray him as in any way a major character.

In terms of growing, becoming strong, or developing as a character, in many ways Zenkichi's story arc is already over. There is no need for Zenkichi to ever become stronger or more significant as a character than he is now, because he has already decided to uphold his current role and position in reality/the Medaka Box universe. As a result, any further results or involvement he will have in the story will have to come solely from what would be feasibly natural or make sense for a guy like Zenkichi to achieve in reality.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-01-19 at 21:28.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:13   Link #11704
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
...
Yeah, that's what I meant. It'd be entirely against his character to become something else.
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:49   Link #11705
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@Clarste Who says they're meaningless victories? I admittedly have to revise my perspective a bit. Zenkichi's fights have never really been about sheer power or amazing abilities.(mentioning those fights was more in response to Guernsey's comment about him getting stomped all the time).

I remember you making a similar post about this on tv tropes, but Zenkichi, despite not being the main victory still has an important role in the support. Perhaps I'm just looking at his same contributions optimistically. Yes, you can look upon the Medaka II instance as morally ambiguous, but without improving upon the character which was there for nearly half the series, it's a meaningless victory. Medaka's character(influeced by Zenkichi's childish ideals) goes through an arc where the students gradually don't need to rely on her. It's not that Medaka was completely wrong(that's why Zenkichi wanted to point out the "too right").

We've got people who think Zenkichi's role is too small, that he's too weak, others who feel that is precisely his role in commentary.
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Old 2013-01-20, 14:49   Link #11706
ccie20012
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Zen a great character who has human motivation.
He naturally can not be idiotic protagonist "Shounen manga".
He did not come to save the world, and something like that.
The perfect hero "Shounen manga" - Iihiko.
Or rather parody to main character.
I believe in the idea of ​​the manga, Zen must now save Medaka-chan.
Not because it is important to save the world or another idiocy.
And because he needs to save a girlfriend (Medaka) and friend (Shiranui).
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Old 2013-01-20, 16:02   Link #11707
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Snip.
You do know that this is basically a run-down of, mostly, with some disagreements here and there, of how I view his character, right?
And yet, on what contention those any of this mean that Zenkichi has lived a life of pointless accomplishments, like Clarste is stating?
I also directly said that he gave-up all the privileges of main-characterization, so I agree on that point. I don't expect Zenkichi to be an overpowered badass who saves the day, I don't expect him to hog all the screen-time, and I don't expect him to be a hero.

You're misunderstanding. It's not that people want Zenkichi to take-up the flak.

It's that people want Medaka gone. Why?

Well, because she's boring, life-less and extremely annoying. And yet, even in an alledged Devil Style world, she's still the main-character, and main-characters still exist, and that's something which people didn't want. That's the inconsistancy from the Flask Plan Arc that fans hate, and leads tons of people(from what I've seen) to think that Shiranui simply ate Devil Style into a skill that "literally does nothing at all".

And, it's true, Nishio can't fully escape the concept of a main character, even if he metaphiscally does so in the story, because in the end, Medaka Box still falls into tropes, despite it's alleged deconstruction of them.

And yet, nothing of this bears anything on the thought of Zenkichi being a character of meaningless victories. I don't think you can, or should, definite him by victories, like you do Medaka or Kumagawa, because he's not really about that, unlike them.
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Old 2013-01-20, 16:20   Link #11708
Kaisos Erranon
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I'd like to hope that Medaka being "dead" will allow the manga to finally break new ground and go in the direction that it should have after Chapter 140, but of course that won't happen.
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Old 2013-01-20, 16:27   Link #11709
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'd like to hope that Medaka being "dead" will allow the manga to finally break new ground and go in the direction that it should have after Chapter 140, but of course that won't happen.
One can only hope, one can only hope. Even if it's a fool's hope.

~~

I'd also like to add that, while me, and several others thought and hoped that Zenkichi would take up the flak, for the possibility of substituting God-awful Medaka, and because Anshin'san described the guy as the type of new-world main character the manga would have(i.e not aided by the fickle hand of fate) the main motivation for wanting the dude as main-character wasn't about that(well, it was about Medaka, but...).

It's simply that people like the character, and he seems(still does) to be the logical choice to follow around in new, less dangerous, less grand adventures(maybe ones that focus more on the characters) - because people like that human side.

So, you see, it's a blend of both Anshin'san's words, and Medaka's terribleness, in the end. And, honestly, neither are truly bad reasons for wanting the manga to have followed something different after 140.

Hell, we thought it did, at first. The Student Council going on a rescue mission, everyone getting character development and screen-time in fights.

That is, until Medaka showed-up, and just did her usual routine(trump everyone effortlessly - Medaka style!).
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Old 2013-01-20, 16:37   Link #11710
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
That is, until Medaka showed-up, and just did her usual routine(trump everyone effortlessly - Medaka style!).
I don't think I'll ever get over how much of a disappointment that was.
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Old 2013-01-20, 17:05   Link #11711
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You do know that this is basically a run-down of, mostly, with some disagreements here and there, of how I view his character, right?
And yet, on what contention those any of this mean that Zenkichi has lived a life of pointless accomplishments, like Clarste is stating?
I also directly said that he gave-up all the privileges of main-characterization, so I agree on that point. I don't expect Zenkichi to be an overpowered badass who saves the day, I don't expect him to hog all the screen-time, and I don't expect him to be a hero.
It's not really that Zenkichi's achievements are totally meaningless, but it is true that virtually all of the moments where Zenkichi has "won" or looked cool in the manga got eventually covered up by reveals or developments which made them insignificant in the bigger picture. Most of the examples have already been brought up: i.e. beating Munakata, restoring Medaka II's memories, "killing" Kumagawa, etc. etc.

The only exception to this was the conclusion to the Not Equals arc (which you brought up). But things like that entire period in the Jet-Black Wedding arc which followed him eventually fell back into the original pattern. The point is that this is entirely correct/natural because Zenkichi basically made a decision which by definition devotes himself to that pattern.

Quote:
You're misunderstanding. It's not that people want Zenkichi to take-up the flak.

It's that people want Medaka gone. Why?

Well, because she's boring, life-less and extremely annoying. And yet, even in an alledged Devil Style world, she's still the main-character, and main-characters still exist, and that's something which people didn't want. That's the inconsistancy from the Flask Plan Arc that fans hate, and leads tons of people(from what I've seen) to think that Shiranui simply ate Devil Style into a skill that "literally does nothing at all".

And, it's true, Nishio can't escape the concept of a main character, even if he metaphiscally does so in the story, because in the end, Medaka Box still falls into tropes, despite it's alleged deconstruction of them.
There's no such thing as an alleged "Devil Style" world, though. Devil Style affects Zenkichi himself, it has no relation to other character's meta-narrative (i.e. Main Character, etc.) status. In the end, Medaka beat Ajimu because she managed to convince her (and therefore the manga) to continue living, and therefore that is why the continuing story focuses on characters and plot conflicts which are actually important in their universe. A story which focuses on (by definition) meta-narratively unimportant events/characters is a story which is dead.

In any case, I have no interest in completely subjective complaints about Medaka being lifeless or "boring". Thematically, from a literary or storytelling perspective about what Medaka Box ultimately wants to say, Medaka has as much significance as any other character in the story, period.

(Since when is using tropes or narrative conventions wrong in the first place? No matter what, it would be completely retarded for any story to try to be a deconstruction of everything. Besides that, simply criticizing random storytelling tropes as if to say "this isn't totally accurate" is completely pointless if you don't actually have something new to say in place of it. Medaka Box has been very consistent about the tropes it actually intends to deconstruct. Complaining that "oh, it still uses tropes in other places" is completely dumb and doesn't say anything.)

Quote:
And yet, nothing of this bears anything on the thought of Zenkichi being a character of meaningless victories. I don't think you can, or should, definite him by victories, like you do Medaka or Kumagawa, because he's not really about that, unlike them.
If you'd just like the wording changed, I would personally more accurately describe Zenkichi as "A minor character who has accepted being a minor character." There are a couple of other things you could add on top of that, but it essentially captures the main point of his character.
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Old 2013-01-20, 17:25   Link #11712
Alpha Knight
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There we go again with the Medaka hate. Geez, you guys are hopeless...

And to who said Shiranui ate Zen's Devil Style, think about that twice and try to discern what's wrong with that statement of yours. Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.
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Old 2013-01-20, 17:41   Link #11713
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.
That, like just about everything else we talk about, is nothing but a supposition at this time.
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Old 2013-01-20, 18:18   Link #11714
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's not really that Zenkichi's achievements are totally meaningless, but it is true that virtually all of the moments where Zenkichi has "won" or looked cool in the manga got eventually covered up by reveals or developments which made them insignificant in the bigger picture. Most of the examples have already been brought up: i.e. beating Munakata, restoring Medaka II's memories, "killing" Kumagawa, etc. etc.
Sorry, but I completely and absolutely fail to see how moving on to the bigger plot-points renders the other plot-points insignificant.

Zenkichi's victories were never supposed to be the climax of any arc(save the one), and I fail to see why you think the way you do, other than a gross over-analysis of the story, but hey, it's your opinion to have. I can respect it.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There's no such thing as an alleged "Devil Style" world, though. Devil Style affects Zenkichi himself, it has no relation to other character's meta-narrative (i.e. Main Character, etc.) status.
Does the musical battle of the bands not ring any bells here? After all, Devil Style is the reason a long-lost archenemy or a long-lost brother didn't appear to delay the election.
Instead, a relatively normal thing happened(one with a much higher probability). And this unnamed arch-enemy hasn't even met Zenkichi or Medaka yet because of the skill.

What I mean is, Devil Style's barriers are rather ambiguous, because it's definition is, too. Not going to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I got a different vibe from it's exposition.

One must remember Anshin'san's wording, after all.

"(...)My new world(...)"

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
In the end, Medaka beat Ajimu because she managed to convince her (and therefore the manga) to continue living, and therefore that is why the continuing story focuses on characters and plot conflicts which are actually important in their universe. A story which focuses on (by definition) meta-narratively unimportant events/characters is a story which is dead.
I fail to see the relevance. You must be thinking too deeply into all this. It's just a silly shounen manga, after all - not a DaVinci painting.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Since when is using tropes or narrative conventions wrong in the first place? No matter what, it would be completely retarded for any story to try to be a deconstruction of everything. Besides that, simply criticizing random storytelling tropes as if to say "this isn't totally accurate" is completely pointless if you don't actually have something new to say in place of it. Medaka Box has been very consistent about the tropes it actually intends to deconstruct. Complaining that "oh, it still uses tropes in other places" is completely dumb and doesn't say anything.)
Well, let me put this as simply as possible.

Pre-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

Post-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

I honestly fail to see the point of Nishio's deconstruction of her Mary-Sueness to just repeat the same arc.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you'd just like the wording changed, I would personally more accurately describe Zenkichi as "A minor character who has accepted being a minor character." There are a couple of other things you could add on top of that, but it essentially captures the main point of his character.
Sure, that's an opinion.

Personally I think it's a rather depressing and cynical way to view the acheivements of a character, and again, I have no understanding of how you reached this conclusion reading the manga, but no-one is alike in this world, there'll always be disagreements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu-Shirudo
There we go again with the Medaka hate. Geez, you guys are hopeless...
I don't see what's so terrible about it. I think it's perfectly natural for some tastes(usually a good number of them) to hate Medaka.

I mean, have you seen other Medaka Box forums?

There was practically a world-wide celebration by the fans when Medaka's nre Box became a coffin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu-Shirudo
And to who said Shiranui ate Zen's Devil Style, think about that twice and try to discern what's wrong with that statement of yours. Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.
Chillax, friend.

And I agree, that's a theory. Albeit, an unlikely one.

I think Anshin' offered a much better explanation to the dilemma of "Hero vs Hero".
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Old 2013-01-20, 18:48   Link #11715
Alpha Knight
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That, like just about everything else we talk about, is nothing but a supposition at this time.
Well, TBF that same ability made Medaka lost the election, so I don't think is that farfetched.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I don't see what's so terrible about it. I think it's perfectly natural for some tastes(usually a good number of them) to hate Medaka.
To do that is fine, but I don't see any need to remind us constantly how much you dislike her. But this is probably because I don't dislike any character in this series.
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Old 2013-01-20, 21:53   Link #11716
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Sorry, but I completely and absolutely fail to see how moving on to the bigger plot-points renders the other plot-points insignificant.

Zenkichi's victories were never supposed to be the climax of any arc(save the one), and I fail to see why you think the way you do, other than a gross over-analysis of the story, but hey, it's your opinion to have. I can respect it.
It's not just "moving on to bigger plot points". There are specific plot reveals after nearly every one of Zenkichi's achievements which act in a way to discredit or reduce the impressiveness of what he accomplished. Beating Munakata --> Munakata was trying his hardest not to kill anybody. Reaching Medaka II's heart/restoring her personality --> she used Yuzuhashi's mind-reading skill and Oudou's brain-washing skill. Killing Kumagawa --> Kumagawa was concealing that All-Fiction made him immortal/invincible. Etc. etc.

The point is not necessarily that Zenkichi's achievements have no meaning. However, one thing that is true about Medaka Box's narrative is that Nishio tends to tell the story as if Zenkichi is a main or important character (or that he did something important), only later to reveal that he isn't/didn't really. This is the main point to be made. Medaka Box/Nishio has a habit of pretending that Zenkichi is more impressive or important than he really is (and then deliberately bringing the story/readers back to reality).

Quote:
Does the musical battle of the bands not ring any bells here? After all, Devil Style is the reason a long-lost archenemy or a long-lost brother didn't appear to delay the election.
Instead, a relatively normal thing happened(one with a much higher probability). And this unnamed arch-enemy hasn't even met Zenkichi or Medaka yet because of the skill.

What I mean is, Devil Style's barriers are rather ambiguous, because it's definition is, too. Not going to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I got a different vibe from it's exposition.

One must remember Anshin'san's wording, after all.

"(...)My new world(...)"
Something happening with the battle of the bands wouldn't have delayed the election. The election was set during Winter Break in December, whereas the school cultural festival occurred early in November.

Also, the result "the performers with the most professional mindset appeared" isn't in itself something that actually has high probability. In fact, if you just picked a bunch of performers at random from a list like Medaka did, normally you would just get a bunch of average performers. It was hinted (more like, Zenkichi directly stated) that it was because it was Medaka picking them that she got the most highly skilled performers which made a huge success for the school cultural festival.

So in this sense, it's pretty clear that Devil Style did not interfere with Medaka's goals for the school festival (i.e. "have a highly enjoyable festival which makes the most people happy", I guess). I'm not sure what Ajimu exactly meant by saying that running into a long lost brother or archenemy "might" have happened, but I think that, if Zenkichi had been given traditional main character powers, those coincidences would have turned out in favour of Zenkichi. Like I dunno, that archenemy could've ended up seriously injuring/disabling Medaka, or awakening her dark side or something, thus giving Zenkichi an advantage in the elections. That might've been the idea.

In any case, the fact that Devil Style didn't effect Medaka's luck in causing her to draw the three most famous entertainment performers does pretty blatantly portray that Devil Style does not universally disable main character powers. Well, if this was not made clear enough by the continuing story from that point onwards anyway. So my main point, that there has never really been a reason to stop assuming Medaka is the main character, is still there.

Quote:
Well, let me put this as simply as possible.

Pre-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

Post-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

I honestly fail to see the point of Nishio's deconstruction of her Mary-Sueness to just repeat the same arc.
Medaka's "defeat" was not a deconstruction of anything except for her ideals of helping others. To be fair, that is a massive deconstruction of her character at the start of the series. As someone who initially thought that Medaka's goal of "turn Hakoniwa Academy into a field of flowers" was fucking retarded, that's a pretty huge deconstruction to me.

However, in the first place, Medaka was never a Mary Sue so she could be deconstructed. Rather, her Mary-Sueness is the deconstruction. By being a Mary Sue, Medaka deconstructs the shounen manga illusion that victory is about anything besides (main character) power. Ideals, effort, determination; none of that actually matters. It is the sheer injustice of simply being a main character, which grants you victory.

But beyond that, the story has long moved past the point of just harping about main characters. The entire "main characters == always win" theme was already finished by the end of Kumagawa's battle with her. At the present stage, Nishio is exploring the concepts of Ajimu--a being who is above main characters by being aware of Medaka Box as just a manga universe--and Iihiko, a being who is higher still.
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Old 2013-01-21, 03:32   Link #11717
Clarste
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For the record, I'm pretty sure the long-lost archenemy who failed to appear at the school festival was referring to Sukinasaki who failed to meet Kumagawa. Well, not specifically since it's something that didn't happen (along with everything else that didn't happen), but it was meant to poke fun at the manga's own dramatic introduction of them, which led to an anticlimax of sorts when they didn't really do anything. Sukinasaki was used as an example of what didn't happen, by showing a close call.
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Old 2013-01-21, 08:26   Link #11718
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu
To do that is fine, but I don't see any need to remind us constantly how much you dislike her. But this is probably because I don't dislike any character in this series.
It really wasn't my intent to piss anyone off, but that simply came into the discussion because that is one explanation for what people wanted and expected after 140.

Sorry, I just forget that this is one of the most neutral Medaka Box forums ever when it comes to Medaka. I forget that I'm in different company, so sorry for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
Snip.
Look, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but why is everything such an ordeal with you?

I think you're a bright guy, but it's clear to me that you're way past the point of overanalyzing the manga when you write that much text.
What I mean is...it's really hard to keep reading that uncondensed stuff, it's too long. I really don't have the dispositon to read and reflect on all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
For the record, I'm pretty sure the long-lost archenemy who failed to appear at the school festival was referring to Sukinasaki who failed to meet Kumagawa. Well, not specifically since it's something that didn't happen (along with everything else that didn't happen), but it was meant to poke fun at the manga's own dramatic introduction of them, which led to an anticlimax of sorts when they didn't really do anything. Sukinasaki was used as an example of what didn't happen, by showing a close call.
IIRC, Sukinasaki didn't seem to be one of two options Anshin'san used as an example.

Spoiler:


I don't think she fits the description for that. The life-long archenemy or the long-lost brother simply weren't required by fate to show-up and produce a plot-line.
I'm also curious as to if Kumagawa was drawn away by Devil Style, or if Suki was drawn in by it.

But I think Kumagawa just abstained for his own reasons, and Suki appearing was just normal(hiring professional musicians).
Mainly, I don't think Devil Style negates a coincidence from ever happening, just dosen't make them nescessary and certain to happen.

The two options mentioned by Anshin'san will probably never appear to us now. Which is a bummer.

Regardless, it's pretty vague at this point, and without even a mention of Devl Style, all that's left for us now is speculation.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-01-21 at 09:25.
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Old 2013-01-21, 12:19   Link #11719
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
By being a Mary Sue, Medaka deconstructs the shounen manga illusion that victory is about anything besides (main character) power. Ideals, effort, determination; none of that actually matters. It is the sheer injustice of simply being a main character, which grants you victory.
Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes. Luffy the main hero of it gets overpowered plenty of times and lost plenty of battles one of which resulted in

Spoiler for st:


So by your logc OP is a deconstruction of shounen by itself despite being a rolemodel of most of shounens nowadays and responsible of creating a lot of shounen tropes.
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Old 2013-01-21, 12:24   Link #11720
Libros
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes. Luffy the main hero of it gets overpowered plenty of times and lost plenty of battles one of which resulted in

Spoiler for st:


So by your logc OP is a deconstruction of shounen by itself despite being a rolemodel of most of shounens nowadays and responsible of creating a lot of shounen tropes.
Funnily enough, we have Fairy tale in which the MC, Natsu, at the end of each arc follows the trope to a tee, he pretty much always wins at the end. Odd, huh? I've always wondered how far in the story line Natsu would have gotten if Zenkichi was there to troll him with Devil style. Just some food for thought.
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