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Old 2013-01-20, 10:38   Link #901
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post

I just wonder why the audience that will read manga is not into watching anime. I guess I don't understand the disconnect between them.
IIRC, the Japanese casuals have a rather low opinion of anime. To them, it's something that only kids, teenagers and manchildren watch. Manga can be read at all ages, anime can not. Which is why a live action adaptation is prefered by prods if they really want to reach a very wide audience, outside of the usualy niche.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:01   Link #902
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
IIRC, the Japanese casuals have a rather low opinion of anime. To them, it's something that only kids, teenagers and manchildren watch. Manga can be read at all ages, anime can not. Which is why a live action adaptation is prefered by prods if they really want to reach a very wide audience, outside of the usualy niche.
Yes I know this in theory but it still doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps it's a different cultural thing because in the US comics & cartoons are normally thought of for a younger audience.

I guess I don't really understand what the major difference is between manga & anime that would make one more accepting for adults & not the other.

Although really I don't understand why something in live action is automatically okay for adults when it's the same story being told in animation or in comics here either.

I guess I don't understand how people think. It should be the content of the story and not the medium that matters (although heck as an adult I don't care and will watch things for children if it tells a good story).
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:02   Link #903
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Here and there stuff like Moribito and SSY are still made, but I have to wonder if eventually their lack of financial success in this economic environment is going to make them virtually extinct (If they aren't close to it already).
There's always the NHK, a co-producer of Moribito, which continues to air shows like Hyouge Mono, based on a manga that won the Tezuka award. As a public broadcaster, the NHK can make decisions based on artistic merit as much as popularity and sales.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Which brings me back to Maruyama Masao and MAPPA, he's trying to get a Pluto adaptation off the ground,Pluto is a manga by Naoki Urasawa that has topped weekly sales charts and won awards and yet MAPPA can't find investors because people don't believe that the anime would sell despite the manga's popularity because while it tops manga sales charts the people who buy the manga aren't the same audience as those who buy anime.
I suspect that a manga which already enjoys substantial sales is less likely to generate an anime series. If I were making these decisions, I'd go for manga with middling sales that have some potential for growth if exposed to a wider audience. Keep in mind that many anime are produced as advertisements for the original source material. A manga that already tops the sales charts has less need of an anime adaptation.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
I mean, isn't the problem the other way around: why won't people who like shows like Moribito and SSY buy things? If the market really is there, what are they willing to buy if Blu-Rays (etc.) aren't the thing? As was pointed out, there didn't seem to be a rush to buy the books either, and those aren't so expensive. So if there's a real market, where are they and what are they doing?
I'm probably representative of the foreigners in this group. I own some anime series on DVD and Blu-ray, but I don't really have any interest in building a collection. A few years back when most everything I watched was on fansubs, I felt a moral obligation to buy the R1 releases of my favorite shows. Now with streaming my moral obligation is met by maintaining a Crunchyroll subscription and putting up with ads on Hulu. I still buy the occasional show, most recently Kurenai and Usagi Drop, but those purchases are pretty rare. Partly it's because the shows I enjoy rarely get an R1 release (Hyouge Mono, for example). I don't buy many live-action DVDs and BDs either.

Shin Sekai Yori is a problematic case, I think. Who precisely is the audience for this show? People who have already read the novel might be interested in seeing the adaptation, but that doesn't mean they'll go out and spend many thousands of yen to buy it. I've already documented above that the anime's release did little to boost the novel's sales. There's also the fact that the story itself is quite disturbing and, so far at least, somewhat depressing. Adults like me are probably fine with that, but it's not the kind of material that would appeal to people looking for some light entertainment. I'm pretty sure that audience segment substantially outnumbers the people willing to watch something as dark as Shin Sekai Yori.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:04   Link #904
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Yes I know this in theory but it still doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps it's a different cultural thing because in the US comics & cartoons are normally thought of for a younger audience.

I guess I don't really understand what the major difference is between manga & anime that would make one more accepting for adults & not the other.

Although really I don't understand why something in live action is automatically okay for adults when it's the same story being told in animation or in comics here either.

I guess I don't understand how people think. It should be the content of the story and not the medium that matters (although heck as an adult I don't care and will watch things for children if it tells a good story).
In Japan comics are seen more like literary works than kiddie works. Animation is usually seen as kiddie except for stuff like Ghibli and Disney (apparently a lot of women love Disney cute stuff? in my country too).
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:07   Link #905
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
In Japan comics are seen more like literary works than kiddie works. Animation is usually seen as kiddie except for stuff like Ghibli and Disney (apparently a lot of women love Disney cute stuff? in my country too).
I rather go with Sheba's answer rather than yours, seeing that calling certain animes like for example the ones with huge ecchi fanservice kiddie is nonsensical


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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
IIRC, the Japanese casuals have a rather low opinion of anime. To them, it's something that only kids, teenagers and manchildren watch. Manga can be read at all ages, anime can not. Which is why a live action adaptation is prefered by prods if they really want to reach a very wide audience, outside of the usualy niche.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:16   Link #906
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I rather go with Sheba's answer rather than yours, seeing that calling certain animes like for example the ones with huge ecchi fanservice kiddie is nonsensical
Their opinion not mine.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:18   Link #907
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
IIRC, the Japanese casuals have a rather low opinion of anime. To them, it's something that only kids, teenagers and manchildren watch. Manga can be read at all ages, anime can not. Which is why a live action adaptation is prefered by prods if they really want to reach a very wide audience, outside of the usualy niche.
I never understood why manga is so much more accepted than anime over there, when the two often essentially tell the same stories and explore the same themes. Why is it that anime is basically treated as trash and its fan ostracized when there is so little difference between the two media? I don't get it at all.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:23   Link #908
hyl
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I never understood why manga is so much more accepted than anime over there, when the two often essentially tell the same stories and explore the same themes. Why is it that anime is basically treated as trash and its fan ostracized when there is so little difference between the two media? I don't get it at all.
Maybe it has to do with that most non children animes are aired during the night and the bad media attention that otaku and hikikomori get (who tend to get more associated with (video)games and animes).
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:24   Link #909
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I never understood why manga is so much more accepted than anime over there, when the two often essentially tell the same stories and explore the same themes. Why is it that anime is basically treated as trash and its fan ostracized when there is so little difference between the two media? I don't get it at all.
Yes this is what I was essentially asking. It doesn't make sense to me why a medium is stigmatized and not the content itself. That seems silly to me.

But I guess it's the same here with super hero comics vs live action movie adaptions.

I just don't understand how people think.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:30   Link #910
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The way you guys talk it's as if Hyouka didn't exist and hadn't sold well, while watching Biblia Koshodou no Jiken Techou I was really reminded of Hyouka and thought "I so wish I could get a kyoani version of this" if only because kyoani would have a better OST and know how to use it properly unlike the drama.


Quote:
Live Action is still much more accessible to a mainstream audience than anime will ever be. That isn't because of the "content of your average anime", but simply because people are more used to relating to stories with real actors.

I know this,I understand it,I accept it because I know there's nothing I can do about it.However I do see a very good reason why you could get an anime alongside a live action adaptation:an anime production company thinks they could make money by making that anime.

Take Liar Game,the dramas have a huge audience but that wouldn't matter if a production company like aniplex thought an anime reboot that sticks closer to the manga could sell,I don't think the success of the live action version is stopping the anime from being made,it's that no anime company believes there's money to be made making one.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I sometimes feel stuck in the middle between "mainstream fans who don't watch anime" and "anime fans who don't have the same taste as the mainstream"

Don't get me wrong though,I have no trouble finding animes to enjoy but it is frustrating when you really like a manga and you know there's little chance it gets an anime adaptation and you'll have to settle for a live action one.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:31   Link #911
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Yes I know this in theory but it still doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps it's a different cultural thing because in the US comics & cartoons are normally thought of for a younger audience.
Yes, it does basically seem like a cultural thing. And in that sense you're right that it doesn't really "make sense", except that it's tradition now. This is sort of like how, in North America at least (and probably a lot of other places in the world), it's much more "okay" for an adult to call themselves a gamer now than it was 15-20 years ago. These sorts of stereotypes only change with time. There certainly is enough "evidence" to support that anime can be as serious and mature as any live action show when it wants to be, so I think perceptions could shift over time. But consider also that people are already overloaded with media choices as it is (when they're not considering anime as a distinct set), so at some point it may be less "active stereotyping" and more just a lack of interest. (I mean, if the selling point here is "anime can be just as real as any live action show", it's then competing against an entire field of live action choices already. Why bother with another medium if you're already plenty entertained with what's out there? I suppose the difference is that a lot of us are looking for anime to provide something different than our own local entertainment choices as it is, so our expectations/goals are a bit different.)

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
There's also the fact that the story itself is quite disturbing and, so far at least, somewhat depressing. Adults like me are probably fine with that, but it's not the kind of material that would appeal to people looking for some light entertainment. I'm pretty sure that audience segment substantially outnumbers the people willing to watch something as dark as Shin Sekai Yori.
Yes, I think this is another perhaps cultural difference that is easy to overlook. I often think of it like "anime as comfort food". That's more or less the way I treat anime personally but, for a number of reasons, this way of viewing anime seems to be less common among non-Japanese fans.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I sometimes feel stuck in the middle between "mainstream fans who don't watch anime" and "anime fans who don't have the same taste as the mainstream"
I suppose it seems ironic that this combination gives you the more "niche" taste in this anime market but, by the same token, it does seem to make sense.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:50   Link #912
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

Yes, I think this is another perhaps cultural difference that is easy to overlook. I often think of it like "anime as comfort food". That's more or less the way I treat anime personally but, for a number of reasons, this way of viewing anime seems to be less common among non-Japanese fans.
No its not differnt. In y country people think only 12 boys watch cartoons.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:59   Link #913
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
No its not differnt. In y country people think only 12 boys watch cartoons.
It's a cultural thing that manga is acceptable but animation is not. In the US at least both animation and comics are generally viewed as for kids.

Please note I think both countries view are silly & misfounded and it should be the content not the medium that is judged.
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Old 2013-01-20, 12:02   Link #914
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
It's a cultural thing that manga is acceptable but animation is not. In the US at least both animation and comics are generally viewed as for kids.

Please note I think both countries view are silly & misfounded and it should be the content not the medium that is judged.
Okay, I see your point.
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Old 2013-01-20, 14:02   Link #915
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, choosing to cater to the people who will give you money doesn't seem so silly to me.

I mean, isn't the problem the other way around: why won't people who like shows like Moribito and SSY buy things? If the market really is there, what are they willing to buy if Blu-Rays (etc.) aren't the thing? As was pointed out, there didn't seem to be a rush to buy the books either, and those aren't so expensive. So if there's a real market, where are they and what are they doing?

I do think it may be interesting to see how the show does in North America. Some times the tastes of the markets are sufficiently different in that sense.
Well of course what they're doing works for them right now so they're going to do it. Does this mean it's the best economic model available to them at the moment? Judging by what keeps happening to the Noitamina block shows, maybe that is true. The late night scheduling of anime is definitely going to be one of the largest barriers to the medium in Japan. However, the insane pricing of anime which turns the hobby into one of collectibles pretty much ensures that the same small groups of people are the ones to determine the financial future of the industry. The decrease of anime titles over 2006 and on I believe speaks about this quite well.

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And I think sometimes people forget a good deal of those controlling what gets made are proud of the fact. It gives them some form of fulfillment. Remember anime is somewhat full of a 'one of us' mentality. Don't you think they get a real kick that people like you, Reckoner, are getting frustrated by the way things are?
Pragmatic? If they are content with the current state of their industry economically, then sure. That is pragmatic. However, I doubt the industry is going to truly grow like this especially as the population of young people in Japan continues to get smaller.

Maybe they do get a kick out of it, I don't know. I think most of the buyer market could hardly care about what I think honestly. Especially when they are interested in many shows that would make them socially estranged in their country.

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
There's always the NHK, a co-producer of Moribito, which continues to air shows like Hyouge Mono, based on a manga that won the Tezuka award. As a public broadcaster, the NHK can make decisions based on artistic merit as much as popularity and sales.
Ah yeah, I forgot about this show. Should probably check it out, I just remember it being really difficult to even get translated episodes at the time . Well I certainly hope there are more champions of artistic merit over popularity/sales out there. Although I was quite sad when Apollon got shafted on the episode count because the producers at MAPPA assumed from the beginning that such a show would sell nothing.
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Old 2013-01-20, 15:11   Link #916
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yes, I think this is another perhaps cultural difference that is easy to overlook. I often think of it like "anime as comfort food". That's more or less the way I treat anime personally but, for a number of reasons, this way of viewing anime seems to be less common among non-Japanese fans.
The main issue I would have with this explanation is that there are other dark/disturbing type shows that have sold much better. The most notable for comparison purposes would probably be Psychopass - 7.6K first volume v. unranked/barely ranking first and second volume. Pretty much everyone I know who watches one of Shinsekai Yori or Psychopass (of which only one, I'll admit, is Japanese - she's a freshman exchange student) watches both.

Though to be fair the one person I know who has dropped either dropped SSY, and did so during what I felt was one of the show's weakest points -episode 6-7 area, I think?.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well of course what they're doing works for them right now so they're going to do it. Does this mean it's the best economic model available to them at the moment? Judging by what keeps happening to the Noitamina block shows, maybe that is true. The late night scheduling of anime is definitely going to be one of the largest barriers to the medium in Japan. However, the insane pricing of anime which turns the hobby into one of collectibles pretty much ensures that the same small groups of people are the ones to determine the financial future of the industry. The decrease of anime titles over 2006 and on I believe speaks about this quite well.
If I were looking for reasons anime titles have gotten more "niche" since 2006, I'd probably cite falling broadcast revenues and a light novel industry who thinks anime is a great way to market to certain kinds of fans more so than anything to do with the optical disc market. Maybe the fact studios are no longer chasing the export bubble as well.

Could a more diverse disc-buying market have helped mitigate those factors. Perhaps, but I don't get the impression that selling TV series on discs in Japan is all that easy regardless of price, possibly due to things like limited storage space encouraging renting as opposed to owning. There is data for a few priced-down reissues in the sales thread - it's not exactly inspiring from what I remember.

IMO, getting a broader audience is probably going to require some changes in business model much more significant than a disc price adjustment.
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Old 2013-01-20, 17:53   Link #917
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However, the insane pricing of anime which turns the hobby into one of collectibles pretty much ensures that the same small groups of people are the ones to determine the financial future of the industry. The decrease of anime titles over 2006 and on I believe speaks about this quite well.
You're missing the most important thing that happened around that time: the utter collapse of the North American anime market. Back in the day, the potential of anime in North America was so over-rated that companies like ADV, Geneon USA, and the like, were paying rather insane amounts in licensing fees (hundreds of thousands of dollars for shows that have barely a hint of popularity), and this was a major funding source for anime. They were even investing in productions up-front and listed on Production Committees. The way they marketed to the local Japanese market didn't really change during that time (they were still being marketed as collectables), but the collapse of the North American market meant a doubling-down on the paying Japanese market and a decided lessening of the influence that the Western anime fan had previously brought to the productions that were being made.

That said, I would point out that, since the bubble burst, the market has been slowly recovering/stabilizing, and I think recent seasons have shown a fairly robust variety in productions.


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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
The main issue I would have with this explanation is that there are other dark/disturbing type shows that have sold much better. The most notable for comparison purposes would probably be Psychopass - 7.6K first volume v. unranked/barely ranking first and second volume. Pretty much everyone I know who watches one of Shinsekai Yori or Psychopass (of which only one, I'll admit, is Japanese - she's a freshman exchange student) watches both.

Though to be fair the one person I know who has dropped either dropped SSY, and did so during what I felt was one of the show's weakest points -episode 6-7 area, I think?.
I suppose it may be interesting to do a comparative analysis of the nature and presentations of these two shows and speculate why one is more popular than the other, assuming they do in fact aim for and reach the same target audience in Japan. (If I were to guess, I suppose marketing is some of it (including particularly the writer involved), along with the art style, age of the characters, and overall themes. The fact that Psycho-Pass is anime-original may also work in its favour in some regards.) I certainly agree that some dark/disturbing shows have sold well in Japan (one could argue that Madoka is a prime example of this, though perhaps it's a special case in all regards), but these tend to buck the trend. In general terms, I do think it seems to be another sort of niche audience in a community full of niches.


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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Could a more diverse disc-buying market have helped mitigate those factors. Perhaps, but I don't get the impression that selling TV series on discs in Japan is all that easy regardless of price, possibly due to things like limited storage space encouraging renting as opposed to owning. There is data for a few priced-down reissues in the sales thread - it's not exactly inspiring from what I remember.

IMO, getting a broader audience is probably going to require some changes in business model much more significant than a disc price adjustment.
In this day and age, I think we'd have to question whether -- collectors notwithstanding -- people even need to own discs anyway. Even if you set aside the disc rental market, which is much more vibrant in Japan, we increasingly live in the age of PVRs and Online Streaming. What is the point of owning discs, particularly when -- as you say -- many people live in cramped living spaces as it is? Anime being regarded as it is (regardless of the content), it's not something you're necessarily going to showcase in the open in the first place if you're the sort who has company over. So, I agree: if they want to appeal to difference audiences, discs probably aren't the way to do it at this point.

One thing that has been fairly successful over the last few years has been OADs, which play on the larger acceptability of manga and just pitches itself as a "Limited Edition". People who were going to buy the book anyway may be willing to shell out a bit extra to get the version with the bundled anime disc. But of course, this only works when anime is an extension of an existing popular work, so it doesn't necessarily expand the overall market for anime as far as themes and target audiences go.

Perhaps call me cynical in this regard, but I'm a bit doubtful that there really is a large adult market out there who has the potential for a long-term sustained interest in choosing anime as a medium over other more popular "mainstream" entertainment choices, whether in Japan or elsewhere. In other words: I think anime for adults will always be a niche, and I don't really see that as a "problem" as much as a reality. Anime is just one part of the entertainment industry, so I think people who love the medium so much that they choose to focus on it to the exclusion of other media choices will always find the content somewhat constrained.
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Old 2013-01-20, 19:39   Link #918
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
IIRC, the Japanese casuals have a rather low opinion of anime. To them, it's something that only kids, teenagers and manchildren watch. Manga can be read at all ages, anime can not. Which is why a live action adaptation is prefered by prods if they really want to reach a very wide audience, outside of the usualy niche.
That's a gross oversimplification, a myth commonly believed in the West but not really grounded in fact. Anime is just another medium in Japan, and while there are certainly broad cultural biases against hard-core otaku Japanese people aren't so ignorant about anime - something that's been a cultural institution here for many decades - as to believe that those otaku represent the majority of people who watch it.

What is true is that manga has a much broader audience than anime does. While anime has a broad demographic, it's selective - pretty much everybody reads manga, with no demographic group excluded. That's why experimentation is so much more common in manga than in the anime industry today - that and the simple fact that it costs less to publish a manga than produce an anime. It's not as much of a financial risk, and you don't have to reach a huge audience for it to be profitable.
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Old 2013-01-20, 20:14   Link #919
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That's a gross oversimplification, a myth commonly believed in the West but not really grounded in fact. Anime is just another medium in Japan, and while there are certainly broad cultural biases against hard-core otaku Japanese people aren't so ignorant about anime - something that's been a cultural institution here for many decades - as to believe that those otaku represent the majority of people who watch it.
I think it depends on how you look at it. My personal experience in my Japanese interactions has been that it's culturally acceptable to admit to watching "mainstream" anime like Ghibli movies and maybe a few big name franchises like Evangelion and maybe Gundam or Macross (particularly saying you watched it growing up -- kids watching anime is always acceptable), but not all anime is treated equally. Generally, the average person is not going to openly admit in most circles to staying up to watch some late-night anime, because that's more "maniac". Calling yourself an "anime fan" is also not something you'd likely do openly (outside of certain circles), although that doesn't mean you don't watch "some" (selected) anime.

So I don't think I'm totally disagreeing with your point... but I think it all depends on where you're coming from when you make the statement. A lot of people watch some anime, but there's also a lot of anime that's aimed to the hardcore market, and a distinction is generally made at least on the "public face".

(In the end, I honestly don't think it's so different from the way cartoons are seen in the West today. It's okay to watch Pixar films or certain mainstream cartoons like The Simpsons, but "Bronies" still have a negative reputation.)
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Old 2013-01-20, 21:19   Link #920
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What I'm mainly disagreeing with is the notion that there's a stigma attached to anime generally speaking - there isn't - or that only Ghibli or Eva is considered respectable. I don't disagree that the average adult Japanese isn't going to admit to watching Oreimo or Haganai, or attend Comiket and talk about it at the office the next day. But in terms of mainstream anime - and I mean shows like SSY, Chihayafuru, NoitaminA series and the like, not just Ghibli, One Piece or kid shows - I haven't seen any indication that there's any sense of embarrassment attached. That's because animation isn't viewed the same here as it is in America (France also fits into this description, I would argue). It's just another medium, full of work that spans both the quality and thematic spectrum from end to end, and the mindset about it can't be conveniently packed into a one-size-fits-all box.
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