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Old 2013-01-17, 18:48   Link #1321
finalfury
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Anyone think that the author will make Yozora into a suicide victim or am I just being pessimistic?
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Old 2013-01-17, 20:07   Link #1322
novalysis
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Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
Anyone think that the author will make Yozora into a suicide victim or am I just being pessimistic?
That would be very dark for it's genre, and I imagine the Anime Internet Community would explode if this is true. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Yozora does end up sliding into depression, at this rate.
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Old 2013-01-18, 00:21   Link #1323
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Being the cynic, I will say this: Happiness can be ephemeral.
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Old 2013-01-18, 18:43   Link #1324
Hollownerox
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
Maybe you should consider this.

Yozora = unhappy
Sena = happy

Happy people can change, they are motivated, they don't give up.
Unhappy people are not motivated, they give up easily.

Happy people can make friends.
Unhappy people can't make friends.

If you want friends, you must be happy first! Then you can work on yourself, improve your personality and so on.

That is exactly what Sena is doing the whole time!

Yozora is completely stuck in negative thinking. She is stuck, she can't move on. She has no aim.
Well that's a pretty terrible way of categorizing people. I know plenty of people who are extremely unhappy with their lives, yet they have the most motivation of anyone I know; in fact the reason they are motivated is because they are unhappy.

Also, no offense or anything, but I noticed quite a few your posts seem kind of bias. They always seem to make Yozora out as the worst person ever, while Sena is the paragon of the story. I know Yozora won't win the award for best character of the year but you have to admit that she has gotten a decent amount of character development, its just not as obvious; and Sena has her annoying flaws too, which is what makes her a good character to begin with. Personally I don't really like Sena as a character much, yet I don't rant about how much of a bane she is to the story. I know that this is just your opinion and I have nothing against that, but can you tone it down a bit, its hard to take seriously since you have the shipping lenses on so much.
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Last edited by Hollownerox; 2013-01-18 at 18:58.
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Old 2013-01-18, 19:06   Link #1325
potchip
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Paranoia, obsession, judgemental, all occasional flaws exhibited by Yozora. Which is why I used the word 'ironic' in another post because for someone who hates a 2D character so much, happens to exhibits the same trait in every post. Understandable if the said someone only watched the first season of the anime - however LN had a much more balanced portrayal.

Funnilh enough this is something that a couple anime viewer has noticed and complaining about Sena's character being a bit broken in S2, well news flash, in the LN she's like that to begin with, every character is broken. For a supposed LN reader, I must question one's comprehension ability, or just the wilful ignorance of all evidence to the contrary.
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Old 2013-01-18, 20:35   Link #1326
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Originally Posted by potchip View Post
Funnilh enough this is something that a couple anime viewer has noticed and complaining about Sena's character being a bit broken in S2, well news flash, in the LN she's like that to begin with, every character is broken. For a supposed LN reader, I must question one's comprehension ability, or just the wilful ignorance of all evidence to the contrary.

I figure it's the same as how the Anime portray Charles (IS), then when the same people went to read the LN they were taken back at how much she's... Not too different from the other girls

I remember back in the first season people were closing one-eye to Sena's antics, but I guess it's a lot harder to do so in S2 when they're so 'in your face'
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:15   Link #1327
mironicus
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Well that's a pretty terrible way of categorizing people. I know plenty of people who are extremely unhappy with their lives, yet they have the most motivation of anyone I know; in fact the reason they are motivated is because they are unhappy.
If they have motivation then these people are not unhappy. They are motivated to achieve more happiness. They have an aim.

The point about being happy and unhappy is the main theme in Haganai.
The neighbor's club members are doing the same things like in a therapy group.
A bunch of loners who have low social skills: Being happy and motivated is essential to change into persons who can live like "normals" within the society.

And this is the aim for Sena, but not for Yozora. Yozora made the club so she has a place for herself and Kodaka.

Every conflict with Yozora raises Sena's social skills. Yozora makes fun of her and makes her cry but Sena is so motivated that she always comes back and faces her again.

She faces her anxieties and she always tries again even if she fails. This is exactly how people in those groups learn to overcome their social anxieties in real life. The conflicts with Yozora actually helps Sena to become a "normal". Her confidence rises and at the end Sena only needs one victory to overcome her. Yozora don't challenge her again because she is unhappy and has no motivation.

In the current episode of the Anime show Yozora achieved the knowledge that friends can kiss. Sena already tries it out in the next episode.

Sena was able to speak out loud those erotic lines from the eroge. Her social skills raised again - someone who can do that has enough confidence to talk to people/strangers without getting nervous. And Yozora was the one who forced her to do that.

The current translated chapter from the light novel now shows that Yozora has problems answering a question where you need some basic social skills (a person with friends can answer this question without problems).

Yozora completely relied on her childhood friend card and that was her biggest mistake. She don't have the social skills to form a new friendship with Kodaka.

But this is not only Yozora's problem - it was the same for Rika and Yukimura. They are socially awkward, they just don't now what to do! They can only watch helpless how Sena is able to improve her relationship with Kodaka, because she always tries out those things she just learned.

A social outcast who really wants to live a "normal" life with friends must be happy and very motivated to achieve this goal.

The author of the story also was once a friendless outcast with bad habits, negative thinking, and in his story he describes what to do to get out of this hole.
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Old 2013-01-19, 13:12   Link #1328
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
If they have motivation then these people are not unhappy. They are motivated to achieve more happiness. They have an aim.

The point about being happy and unhappy is the main theme in Haganai.
The neighbor's club members are doing the same things like in a therapy group.
A bunch of loners who have low social skills: Being happy and motivated is essential to change into persons who can live like "normals" within the society.

A social outcast who really wants to live a "normal" life with friends must be happy and very motivated to achieve this goal.
Once again with the shipping lenses... But you are forgetting some major things, you mistake optimism as social ability, which is simply incorrect. Answer me this, if Sena has such amazing social prowess as you claim then where are her friends outside the Club?

In the beginning of the story she has no female friends and treated the guys as servants due to her arrogance. Seven volumes later and she has no female friends (outside the club) and she still treats the guys as servants... due to her arrogance.

While her happy attitude may make it appear like she would be great at making friends, her haughty attitude still makes her just as pathetic at social issues as the rest of the club. (Admittedly her attitude is what makes her appealing to fans, as well as the usual fanservice bait, but I digress.)

And you're kind of missing the whole point of the series. The theme of the story is not that you have to be "happy" in order to be friends, its more like you don't exactly have to be "normal" in order to make friends. The Neighbor's club is filled with abnormal people, yet they are still friends despite not being a "normal". The author is saying you don't have to fit in with some perceived vision of normalcy to make friends.
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Old 2013-01-21, 16:49   Link #1329
mironicus
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Originally Posted by Hollownerox View Post
Once again with the shipping lenses... But you are forgetting some major things, you mistake optimism as social ability, which is simply incorrect. Answer me this, if Sena has such amazing social prowess as you claim then where are her friends outside the Club?
They were alone the whole time, they have to refresh their social skills to make friends.

People who are always alone are used to think about themselves. Friendship starts with the thought about another person. If they can't think about other people they can't even start a relationship.

Quote:
And you're kind of missing the whole point of the series. The theme of the story is not that you have to be "happy" in order to be friends, its more like you don't exactly have to be "normal" in order to make friends. The Neighbor's club is filled with abnormal people, yet they are still friends despite not being a "normal". The author is saying you don't have to fit in with some perceived vision of normalcy to make friends.
You are not thinking about the aim of the club. They want to be "Riajuu" = normal people who can live a fulfilled life in society.

You are not thinking about the author. The author HAD bad habits, WAS negative thinking and WAS friendless. He don't have this flaws anymore and he has friends now. He became a normal person.

Forgive me, but this show is not intended to end up with the message that antisocial people can make friends. Antisocial people can only dream about leading a happy life, as long as they are not starting to work on themselves and change.

Last edited by mironicus; 2013-01-21 at 17:15.
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Old 2013-01-21, 17:36   Link #1330
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Woo... Connect lays thick with fanservice.

and on all that friends argue. I will say even criminals can have friends, someone who lives very hard and pessimistic life can still find someone to socialize as long you are on same wavelenght with them.
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Old 2013-01-22, 03:32   Link #1331
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
You are not thinking about the author. The author HAD bad habits, WAS negative thinking and WAS friendless. He don't have this flaws anymore and he has friends now. He became a normal person.
I think that's quite presumptuous of you. How do you know that this is a sort of "personal reflection" of the author's own life and the story of how characters in the story (apparently "like him") became normal people? Is he out there "living the life" in between writing this otaku-centric Light Novel? And is being "a normal person" really such a good thing (and do you really think that's what the author is trying to tell us)? Is this supposed to be some sort of "Otaku Self-Help Guide" to teach "fellow miserable outcasts" social skills?

Are there any "normal people" characters in this story who are consistently portrayed as sympathetic people we should admire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
Forgive me, but this show is not intended to end up with the message that antisocial people can make friends. Antisocial people can only dream about leading a happy life, as long as they are not starting to work on themselves and change.
Again, what evidence do you offer to submit that this is theme of the story? Has the story ever truly advocated "normal social behaviour" as the ultimate goal, or really suggested that the characters can't find friendship unless they change? I would submit, on the contrary, that a key theme (if not the main theme) of this story is how this group of rag-tag outcasts find friends in each other. Not that they're going to "graduate" from their oddities, but rather that they'll find ways to live with them because there are people that can accept them for who they are. Yes, Kodaka reached a turning point in terms of his character and decided he needs to take a bit more charge of his destiny, but that doesn't set him on the path to becoming a "normal person" any more than the rest of them. I think it's a story about acceptance and friendship, not "change your ways to become normal (because being an outcast is bad)".

And besides that, I think it's quite presumptuous to suggest that "antisocial people can only dream about leading a happy life". Says who? Finding people who can love and accept you is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to "change" who you are.

"Normal" is overrated.
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Old 2013-01-22, 15:48   Link #1332
Libros
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I think that's quite presumptuous of you. How do you know that this is a sort of "personal reflection" of the author's own life and the story of how characters in the story (apparently "like him") became normal people? Is he out there "living the life" in between writing this otaku-centric Light Novel? And is being "a normal person" really such a good thing (and do you really think that's what the author is trying to tell us)? Is this supposed to be some sort of "Otaku Self-Help Guide" to teach "fellow miserable outcasts" social skills?

Are there any "normal people" characters in this story who are consistently portrayed as sympathetic people we should admire?

Again, what evidence do you offer to submit that this is theme of the story? Has the story ever truly advocated "normal social behaviour" as the ultimate goal, or really suggested that the characters can't find friendship unless they change? I would submit, on the contrary, that a key theme (if not the main theme) of this story is how this group of rag-tag outcasts find friends in each other. Not that they're going to "graduate" from their oddities, but rather that they'll find ways to live with them because there are people that can accept them for who they are. Yes, Kodaka reached a turning point in terms of his character and decided he needs to take a bit more charge of his destiny, but that doesn't set him on the path to becoming a "normal person" any more than the rest of them. I think it's a story about acceptance and friendship, not "change your ways to become normal (because being an outcast is bad)".

And besides that, I think it's quite presumptuous to suggest that "antisocial people can only dream about leading a happy life". Says who? Finding people who can love and accept you is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to "change" who you are.

"Normal" is overrated.
Very well said. Especially that last line.
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Old 2013-01-22, 16:03   Link #1333
Spinell
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
They were alone the whole time, they have to refresh their social skills to make friends.
Sena was never alone. She had her doormats ..err.. male admirers to talk to. One of the reasons Yozora disliked (dislikes) her (popular people can go die).
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Old 2013-01-23, 16:01   Link #1334
mironicus
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I think that's quite presumptuous of you. How do you know that this is a sort of "personal reflection" of the author's own life and the story of how characters in the story (apparently "like him") became normal people?
I am thinking about the story and the characters and what happened up until know. He wrote in the liner notes that it's a story about himself.

"This novel is a story about myself who also had few friends, bad communication skills, negative thinking, lacking life experiences and useless delusional habits. "

Quote:
Is this supposed to be some sort of "Otaku Self-Help Guide" to teach "fellow miserable outcasts" social skills?
A complete walk-through to achieve a happy life, a social reintegration step-by-step.
They are doing similar things like in a therapy group for people with social anxieties.

Quote:
Are there any "normal people" characters in this story who are consistently portrayed as sympathetic people we should admire?
Actually what I meant with "normal" is that they learn to interact with each other in a "normal" manner. They learn to think and to care about each other.
And they are also talking about their flaws within the group.

Quote:
Finding people who can love and accept you is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to "change" who you are.
The members of the club are outcasts because they have social anxiety problems. Yozora has an extreme social phobia.
People with such anxieties are not able to lead a happy life if they don't change (improving their social skills, facing their anxieties...).

In the new Connect Light Novel the author gives a more detailed description about the social problems of some characters (Yukimura, Yozora).

Last edited by mironicus; 2013-01-23 at 16:59.
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Old 2013-01-23, 18:19   Link #1335
ayumi-chan
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Hi!

Pardon me!

Why is Yukimura thinking that Kodaka is a delinquent? Is she dreaming...?
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Old 2013-01-23, 18:26   Link #1336
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She's misunderstanding him, like every other damn student at that school. Kodaka's blond hair doesn't help matters.
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Old 2013-01-23, 18:53   Link #1337
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Actually what I meant with "normal" is that they learn to interact with each other in a "normal" manner. They learn to think and to care about each other.
And they are also talking about their flaws within the group.
If this is really what you meant by "normal", then I don't necessarily disagree with this point in some senses (as this is basically what I said -- that they learn to find friends in each other), but still I don't see how it supports the overall conclusion you're suggesting for the direction of the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
"This novel is a story about myself who also had few friends, bad communication skills, negative thinking, lacking life experiences and useless delusional habits. "
I'm quite sure that the author sees aspects of himself in the characters. But I'm also quite sure that many of us in the audience are also going to see part of ourselves in these characters, even if it's exaggerated for comedic effect. I don't think that necessarily makes it a "self-help book" for the audience, even if it is a story of hope (that even outcasts can make friends).


Quote:
Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
The members of the club are outcasts because they have social anxiety problems. Yozora has an extreme social phobia.
People with such anxieties are not able to lead a happy life if they don't change (improving their social skills, facing their anxieties...).
They all have some antisocial behaviour, but I'm not sure that "social anxiety" is really at the root of all of it (or for all of them). In the end, most of them are outcasts because they're different from everyone else. I don't think most of them are "afraid" to interact with others or avoid people out of fear of rejection... they're just not good at relating to others, who aren't good at relating to them. And this is why the club is a valuable experience for them.

I'm still not sure that I'm prepared to judge how people can live a "happy life". But it's clear that they weren't satisfied with their original situation of not having any friends to confide in and rely on. I think accepting what they've found in each other is the end point, not becoming "riajuu". Somehow I doubt that even the author has become a "riajuu" himself, even if he's grown up a bit along the way.
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Old 2013-01-23, 20:12   Link #1338
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All I'm seeing is mironicus looking at the novels in a very biased way.
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Old 2013-01-23, 20:17   Link #1339
Miraluka
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*sees above post*

Mother of bias...



Everyone has their point of view I agree with some of microbus' statements .
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Old 2013-01-23, 20:35   Link #1340
potchip
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Not just baised but obsessed (obsessed like Sena, but not on the hating part) with hatred for Yozora. A test: count number of times Yozora gets mentioned compared Sena in his posts. Which is rather ironic, because he then talks about how negativity is the root of all evil.
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