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Old 2013-01-21, 13:10   Link #11721
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes.
One Piece is a bit unusual in that regard. MB isn't exactly wrong in its critiques and examinations of the battle manga genre.
It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either:
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Last edited by Kaisos Erranon; 2013-01-21 at 13:45.
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Old 2013-01-21, 13:43   Link #11722
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either:
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Now, this I find really interestingly done by Nishio's part, even though I have never brought it up.

What do you folks think of this?
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:21   Link #11723
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either
Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?

Its like talking about pebbles on the road without actually talking about the road.
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:28   Link #11724
Tenchi Hou Take
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I think at this point Nisio needs to move on from the deconstructing shounen tropes/following them almost to a T storyline. Anyone can deconstruct a common cliche, that take an amazing writer to do that, the most successful deconstructions tend to be those that had an underlining point behind, an easily but typically not truly considered by the reader. E.g Lord of flies where the deconstruction of the typical young's boys adventure story leads to horrifying results, or romance novels such as great expectations where the typical story of boys meet girl, and pauper to riches, leads to a circular development, the young man and the girl aren't shown happily ever after at the end and boy loses his riches. They both end up right back at where they started except not quite right back.

If he reallys wants to continue this deconstruction he should follow a more realistic with an easy identifiable message and ideally not one where it's MC characters don't really work hard, everyone already knows this, but why is it idealized that they do work hard, because the ability to put your effort into achieving something you want through your own hard work is admired by society. Why? As it is a way for humans who may only live once to die saying, I didn't waste this life, I achieved what I wanted on my own terms and I can be proud I lived the way I did, as regardless of the end result I know I truly tried and that's one regret I didn't have.

it doesn't have like that but a story can hit hardest when interwoven with a single consistent poignant theme. And I think Medaka box lacks that.
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:45   Link #11725
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
But I think Kumagawa just abstained for his own reasons, and Suki appearing was just normal(hiring professional musicians).
Mainly, I don't think Devil Style negates a coincidence from ever happening, just dosen't make them nescessary and certain to happen.
The fact that Saki is now a profession musician is itself the incredible coincidence. Do you not realize that? There was absolutely no reason that any one of the three had to be someone we already knew who had an important history with one of the main characters.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:13   Link #11726
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The fact that Saki is now a profession musician is itself the incredible coincidence. Do you not realize that? There was absolutely no reason that any one of the three had to be someone we already knew who had an important history with one of the main characters.
I really don't see the problem here? I know there was no reason for it other than that they just happened to be hired by the school.

That's basically what I'm saying.

The event should've been complicated, but according to Ajimu, it didn't have to, nescessarily, because fate couldn't influence a complication anymore, so stuff just happened as it would in reality.
Suki just happened to be a musician, and Kumagawa just happened to skip school that day or any other reason. No fate, just pure random.

That's Devil Style's influence over the influence of fate(what a strange thought), just like two opposite forces clashing and negating one another.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:22   Link #11727
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?

Its like talking about pebbles on the road without actually talking about the road.
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:31   Link #11728
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
It's pretty much One Piece and Dragonball, One piece has sold the most hell it breaks single month volume sales records on a has a monthly basis Most probably by the time it finishes it'll outstrip the sales of any other manga by an extremely large amount, Dragonball is is around the same due to worldwide popularity as well as the high volume sales . Naruto's big but not really Dragonball stand out big. Bleach not quite the same tier.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:40   Link #11729
Shadow5YA
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I'll give you One Piece, but Naruto, or anything else in WSJ right now? Someone is clearly biased if they think JoJo is "second-assed and poor by comparison".
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:41   Link #11730
Guernsey
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And they there are the cult classics such as Jojo, Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya and Prince of tennis. They may not have had high sales (and Jojo became a seinen) but they influence manga in ways that is indescribable. Fist of The North Star even started the shonen battle genre while Jojo and Dragonball codified what the genre was going to be like.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:42   Link #11731
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
What do you folks think of this?
It remains my favorite page in the entire manga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?
He mentions Dragonball which is the whole reason manga like Bleach and Naruto even exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
it doesn't have like that but a story can hit hardest when interwoven with a single consistent poignant theme. And I think Medaka box lacks that.
It HAD that, but everything after 140 kind of dropped the ball in that regard.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:51   Link #11732
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I really don't see the problem here? I know there was no reason for it other than that they just happened to be hired by the school.

That's basically what I'm saying.

The event should've been complicated, but according to Ajimu, it didn't have to, nescessarily, because fate couldn't influence a complication anymore, so stuff just happened as it would in reality.
Suki just happened to be a musician, and Kumagawa just happened to skip school that day or any other reason. No fate, just pure random.

That's Devil Style's influence over the influence of fate(what a strange thought), just like two opposite forces clashing and negating one another.
Yes, that's why I was using it as an example of the kind of complication that was avoided by Devil Style. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:57   Link #11733
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It remains my favorite page in the entire manga.
Heh. My favorite page comes after that one, coincidentally enough.

Though, I really can't look at them separated, they really are a gem of a pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It HAD that, but everything after 140 kind of dropped the ball in that regard.
I'd kinda have to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Yes, that's why I was using it as an example of the kind of complication that was avoided by Devil Style. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?
Probably, talking with Sol Falling usually leaves me confused as to who is saying what, likely because that guy says everything that there is to say, but I digress, I don't want to be rude.
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Old 2013-01-21, 18:35   Link #11734
Kaisos Erranon
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Heh. My favorite page comes after that one, coincidentally enough.

Though, I really can't look at them separated, they really are a gem of a pair.
I put the best pages from that particular chapter together.
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Old 2013-01-21, 19:51   Link #11735
ccie20012
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One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach, Naruto ... etc OMG
I am speechless. How does this related to Nisio and my favorite manga?
Medaka Box this is a parody.
It can be black humor or romcom, but it's not pure/classic/stupid shounen manga.
Sorry
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Old 2013-01-21, 21:21   Link #11736
Guernsey
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Absurdist Reasoning?
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:14   Link #11737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
LOL. Check the sale numbers. Like it or not but OP is the best selling manga of all times shounen or otherwise. Even bleach or Naruto combined cannot hope to scratch the numbers of OP and both bleach and naruto are quite sucessful manga's but OP is a different beast all together.

You are free to think otherwise but simple facts of figures tells otherwise. Deny it but you are just coming off as a complete ignorant fool.
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:17   Link #11738
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach, Naruto ... etc OMG
I am speechless. How does this related to Nisio and my favorite manga?
Medaka Box this is a parody.
Well guys started talking about deconstruction of shounen genre but I dont see that such deconstruction is worth of shit if it doesnt tackle the main manga of the contemporary shounen era that is responsible for plenty of tropes but instead aims at just some byproductsor influential manga's of the past. Past is past they did their own shaping, but contemporary shounen is reshaping and its the one we should talk and most responsible of shaping that is not even touched upon.

And the reason why Nishio doesnt tackle upon that is because he simply cannot or else he would have to deconstruct his own deconstruction.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2013-01-22 at 02:39.
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:38   Link #11739
Kaisos Erranon
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I also made this because why not?
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Poor guy never gets a break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
LOL. Check the sale numbers. Like it or not but OP is the best selling manga of all times shounen or otherwise.
None of the big three are that influential though, at least not on the level of some of the 80s and 90s classics that Nisio is listing in the pages I linked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Past is past they did theirt own shaping, but contemporary shounen is reshaping and its the one we should talk and most responsible of shaping that is not even touched upon.
Furthermore, you realize that Bleach and Naruto are themselves heavily inspired by FotNS, Dragonball, etc, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And the reason why Nishio doesnt tackle upon that is because he simply cannot or else he would have to deconstruct his own deconstruction.
Also, this is why the word "deconstruction" is very stupid.
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Old 2013-01-22, 03:00   Link #11740
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
None of the big three are that influential though, at least not on the level of some of the 80s and 90s classics that Nisio is listing in the pages I linked.
But none were that successful either. Even now the most new players coming in the manga are usually influenced by the successful manga nowadays more so than the past ones.

Past ones influenced the big three (Naruto and Bleach in particular) but for me big three is actually big one and two mediocres attached.

OP is quite influential and the more time will pass the more influential it will be.

The problem is that OP doesnt follow shounen tropes the way Bleach or Naruto does. But at the same time its way too big of a player to ignore.

So what now? Call One Piece not a shounen? If not then Nishio's 'deconstruction' is pointless as it doesnt include the biggest fish in contemporary manga world which in its own right influences the newer manga's thus reshaping the contemporary shounen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, this is why the word "deconstruction" is very stupid.
Now that I can agree about. But the word 'deconstruction' makes Nishio's manga sound deeper than it actually is.
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