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Old 2013-01-22, 15:47   Link #31701
Valkama
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Well in my opinion, the fact that nothing made sense at all in EP8 is why I loved reading it my first time through. Pretty much all of Umineko's magical battles were like this especially EP3 when Beatrice and Virgilia could just use weapons of the Gods at will. It sorta made the magic feel extremely ridiculous and very entertaining to watch it take place all at the same time. EP8 is just a magic battle that goes on and on.

Looking at it though, EP1-4 were anti fantasy so the reason of having ridiculous magic battles was to help get the readers on that track and Chiru is supposed to be Anti Mystery in which the logic battles are extremely ridiculous to get us on the pro fantasy path however EP8 then just feels out of place when you look at it like that. Actually I take that back, EP8 was ridiculous in both fantasy and mystery so I guess what Umineko is saying in the end is nothing :/
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Old 2013-01-22, 15:51   Link #31702
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It makes sense on the authorial level because Tohya/Ikuko basically are the top-level authority in the form of the author avatar, but it doesn't make sense on the lower level where BATTLER is doing things for what he claims to be a coherent reason yet ends up doing a bunch of shit he has no reason whatsoever to do but does anyway. These actions make sense from Featherine's context, but they don't make a whole lot of sense from BATTLER's.
That's why I said "almost".
Isn't there this popular theory that EP8 is a mixture of Yukari's and Tohya's/Ikuko's world and that is the reason that it looks so confusing?
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Old 2013-01-22, 16:36   Link #31703
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Well in my opinion, the fact that nothing made sense at all in EP8 is why I loved reading it my first time through. Pretty much all of Umineko's magical battles were like this especially EP3 when Beatrice and Virgilia could just use weapons of the Gods at will. It sorta made the magic feel extremely ridiculous and very entertaining to watch it take place all at the same time. EP8 is just a magic battle that goes on and on.
The ep3 battle has a point though: It's intentionally more over-the-top than anything has ever been in a manner that leaves absolutely no evidence in order to alert Battler to the fact that if a scene was unobserved, aspects of it are open to doubt. All of the magic battles either contain big hints or represent the arguments needed to get some insight from them.

The battles in ep8 are essentially divorced from context; nobody appears to be learning anything, and the battles with Battler/Erika and Beatrice/Ange especially have no apparent connection to the actual flow of the plot and are effectively meaningless after they end. If nothing else they could've touched on the actual points the episode was addressing in more than one half of a conversation between Ange and Beatrice. Which would've been fine and potentially interesting had Beatrice not been an enormously patronizing jerk, and had their debate actually happened during their battle that we never saw instead of at the tail end of it. And the Battler/Erika thing was 100% filler with no purpose whatsoever.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2013-01-22, 16:45   Link #31704
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You know, rereading ep8 it's kind of baffling how nonsensical the entire goat battle sequence is. Things just happen for no reason, people not named Will/Dlanor/Lion/BATTLER are completely incapable of thinking of any semblance of strategy, and then Battler has to fight Erika because........ because he does, and then they (and Beato/Ange) have a context-less logic battle (that we don't even actually get to see for either side), Beatrice seals a room that already has the thing in it Ange wants in the first place, Ange is completely right in all of her arguments about how everyone is being a patronizing dick to her, BATTLER argues that bad things aren't bad if we don't know about them
Honestly I find Ep 8 pretty messy.
I think it had the right potential as I've assumed that it wasn't that Battler wanted to deny Ange the truth as he hands her the key that only she can use and... well, he basically let her spot the book when they met but that there was something he wanted her to know first.
And this was fitting even in regards to Prime as it's implied that in Prime Ange has likely already read Eva's diary but there's no red truth in Prime so she will never know if what Eva wrote is the truth and will have to deal with it so... additional info can be useful, expecially considering it's likely that neither Eva nor Battler know the full truth about what had happened.
Also Meta Battler seemed very much a construct of Ange's mind so it made even more sense he couldn't tell her what Ange didn't know.

However all this is developed in the messiest of the ways as what Battler does doesn't seem to try and point out the good sides of his relatives so that Ange could tell herself "Hey, even if they did some bad things they weren't completely evil or they had their own reasons for it!" but to outright lie to her, offering her the opposite version of Bern's tale. If Bern's one turned everyone into monsters, his turn everyone into angels.

(which is why I prefer the manga version in which, for example, is confirmed that Rosa wasn't the best mother but we're given some extra tips about her childhood. Oh yes, everything then turns out nice but in a more believable way than in the novel version where Rosa seems a completely nice person)

It only confuses things for the readers as it makes impossible to figure out the truth (did the Ushiromiya really argue for the inheritance or it was just a speculation created by the message bottles who were written on an 'immaginary' setting? did Rosa really mistreat Maria or she was merely a severe mother who, sometimes was forced by work to neglect Maria? was Kinzo really that severe, bordering on violent and supporter of man supremacy or he was merely misunderstood because he was a weird guy? And so on...) and harder for Ange to believe in what Battler is saying.
The Ushiromiya of the first part of EP 7 aren't jumping at each other's throat but are more... believable than the ones of Ep 8.

While Ange is right in her argument her way to go at it reminds more of a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum. One of the things I didn't like in Ep 8 is that it sort of destroyed the grow Ange had gone through in EP 4 when she realized if she'd tried to be nice to Eva and support her things would have gone better.

In addition she fails a second time into showing she could accept the truth because, as she had rejected the supposed truth of Ep 7 Teaparty by 'self-terminating' herself while Bern let her believe she was about to say it was all true in red, she can't stand to the truth in Ep 8 either and reject it, both verbally and with her actions.

I would have preferred if she'd namaged to prove Battler wrong and withstand the truth, especially because she insisted so much in knowing it despite knowing it was going to be bad.

Also the whole not knowing vs knowing is handled poorly.

One thing is fully believing that the Rokkenjima mess was an incident and never doubting it and with you the rest of the world and the whole truth having no releavence in your life. You're probably not happy about it happening but not knowing it was... let's assume... a massacre orchestrated by your mom and that ended bad for her as well, isn't going to have any consequence in your life.

Another thing is you're living a life plagued by accusations and doubts. People around Ange were, back then, likely continuously reminding her that there was someone to blame for the situation and pointing fingers against her parents. Ange herself wanted someone to blame even if her target was Eva.

In that case not knowing offers you no relief.

If the whole point was 'PrimeAnge will never know the truth because there's no red and, even if she were told the truh the only thing that would matter is if she believes it or not'... well, that too is handled poorly because we're dealing with MetaAnge here and she can find out the truth. Why should MetaAnge care if there's no red truth in Prime when she can have access to it in the Meta?

In a way if it's true that PieceYasu was moved by a Meta motive here it seems that MetaBattler is moved by a Prime motive.

And if that's the truth I'm going to find it as disappointing as PieceYasu being moved by a Meta motive.

As for the fight with the goats... I didn't like it much. First there's the 'everyone escapes and only a few can fight the goat', then there's the 'everyone fight amazingly well against the goats and Erika' but, apart for the supposed coolness of the fighting scenes that as far as I'm involved goes vasted because they aren't being shown visually (as far as I'm involved that sort of fighting scenes need to be seen to be apprecciated by me, just having to read them is boring) the whole fight doesn't really add much to the plot.
We only have a confirmation and an extra info (Kanon showed up at Jessica's school and George had Shannon's letters) then there's some rambling about feelings that doesn't really tell us much (Rosa loved Maria? That's cool but is this an insurance she wasn't an abusive mother? There's plenty of real life crimes committed by person X who loved person Y and yet killed him/her just the same) and... honestly I can't remember anything else.

Van Dines are left in white, so although they work on the goats we don't know if they work on the gameboard... which is pretty pointless any way you look at it.

If the goats are challenging Will on the gameboard to be pushed back the Van Dines should work on the gameboard. If the goats are challenging Will on Prime... who cares about Van Dine?

And so on.

So no, I'm not very fond of Ep 8 as it could have been done way better. As of now I've big hopes for the manga that so far had been better in many, many ways (they even had Battler and Shannon talk when the whole issue is completely ignored in the novel and MetaBattler seems to see Shannon as just a servant) though I'm not sure it'll manage to keep this standards up till the end.
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:09   Link #31705
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From a literary standpoint, yeah, the logic battles don't fit very well. I thought they were cool though because it was a throwback to EP2, in a way. At the same time, there really wasn't MUCH to them, so that's why we don't get to see the "middle" of the arguments. He could have fleshed them out and made them more relevant somehow, I agree.

Besides, it gives Ryukishi a reason to use More Fear and lixaxil
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:47   Link #31706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also Meta Battler seemed very much a construct of Ange's mind so it made even more sense he couldn't tell her what Ange didn't know.
I kind of adopted the stance that, while Meta-Battler is a reflection of how Ange perceives the Battler behind the stories to be like, the EP8 gamemaster Battler is also a reflection of what stance the Battler in Touya took regarding his message towards Ange.

Battler's message might be with the intention to "give Ange a wonderful outlook on a horrible reality", but he also ran into the same trap as Yasu did. He assumed that there could only be one way for this to turn out, he wanted for Ange to reach his solution in a way that she would think she reached it on her own. Every time she strayed from that path Battler appeared to be pretty frustrated. He does not seem to understand why she wouldn't accept his wonderful fantasy.
I think that is why Battler met with the child Ange in the chapel, because he passed that key to a child, not to an adult with different views on the world.

Quote:
As of now I've big hopes for the manga that so far had been better in many, many ways (they even had Battler and Shannon talk when the whole issue is completely ignored in the novel and MetaBattler seems to see Shannon as just a servant) though I'm not sure it'll manage to keep this standards up till the end.
I really hope they will be able to keep the current level up, because I agree that the manga version of EP8 appears much more polished. In many ways EP8 seemed a little incomplete, almost as if half the script was tossed out at the last second (which is technically possible).
I wouldn't agree with the notion that the gameboard narrative of EP8 makes no sense, as explained above, but it was incomplete in many ways, as several elements were hinted at but then dropped a second later, as well as many scene-transitions appearing very much glued together at the last possible moment.
Who knows, maybe if he had just taken one Comiket off EP8 itself might have turned out a little more polished.
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Old 2013-01-22, 19:52   Link #31707
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I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.
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Old 2013-01-22, 19:59   Link #31708
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I kind of adopted the stance that, while Meta-Battler is a reflection of how Ange perceives the Battler behind the stories to be like, the EP8 gamemaster Battler is also a reflection of what stance the Battler in Touya took regarding his message towards Ange.

Battler's message might be with the intention to "give Ange a wonderful outlook on a horrible reality", but he also ran into the same trap as Yasu did. He assumed that there could only be one way for this to turn out, he wanted for Ange to reach his solution in a way that she would think she reached it on her own. Every time she strayed from that path Battler appeared to be pretty frustrated. He does not seem to understand why she wouldn't accept his wonderful fantasy.
I think that is why Battler met with the child Ange in the chapel, because he passed that key to a child, not to an adult with different views on the world.
It can be he wanted for Ange to reach a certain solution and to his credit he tried a way gentler way than Beato but it's still basically trying to force someone in an emotional turmoil to... play a game when they believe they've more important things to do.

Battler believed he could save his family, Ange is trying to find an answer to something that is plaguing her.

I'm not saying Battler is wrong in wanting her to find her answer just that he should know, by personal experience, that's not going to work well. Actually he should have realized it when he had to force Ange to stay against her will.

That's true that Ange is mostly acting like a bratty child but actually she's not, she's just a scarred girl and I think things would have gone better if Battler had simply told her 'before showing you the truth there are some things you've to see to understand the truth'.

Instead Battler seems to want to impose his view. Of course he might be doing this to present Ange with the opposite extreme. The outside world present her with a theory that tells her that her parents were monsters and she let it hurt her. He presents her with a theory in which everyone was The Best Person Ever. As his theory is theoretically as good as the other this could push her to reason on why the other affect her so much.

However, again, he's asking too much by someone who's not up to give him this and in fact it completely backfires. Ange escapes, steal the book and read it without being prepared for it.

Then somehow the day is saved but... well technically the same had happened to him with Beato as Beato technically go comatose and then vanished/died/whatever before Battler could reach a solution assuming he was sort of death.
Funny enough he was the one who had to 'piece' Beato together though we ended up having 2 Beatos, one is the one of EP 6 and one is the one of Ep 7 who's dead.

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I really hope they will be able to keep the current level up, because I agree that the manga version of EP8 appears much more polished. In many ways EP8 seemed a little incomplete, almost as if half the script was tossed out at the last second (which is technically possible).
I wouldn't agree with the notion that the gameboard narrative of EP8 makes no sense, as explained above, but it was incomplete in many ways, as several elements were hinted at but then dropped a second later, as well as many scene-transitions appearing very much glued together at the last possible moment.
Who knows, maybe if he had just taken one Comiket off EP8 itself might have turned out a little more polished.
Well, it's an interesting theory and after seeing how smoothly some scenes were added to the manga I've been thinking if it was possible that those scenes were already planned but, for some reason, couldn't make in the visual novel.
(honestly I've hopes also for the Yasu story in EP 7 but as I'm stilled at the point in which she hadn't showed up yet I really don't know if the manga will handle it better than the visual novel... although I found odd how EP 7 removed the whole scene of Battler watching Beato's dead body in the beginning...)

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I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.
It'll be interesting to know the truth about Ikuko though I fear we've a long way to go before reaching the point in which she shows up in the manga... which has just reached Bern's game...
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Old 2013-01-22, 20:47   Link #31709
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
From a literary standpoint, yeah, the logic battles don't fit very well. I thought they were cool though because it was a throwback to EP2, in a way. At the same time, there really wasn't MUCH to them, so that's why we don't get to see the "middle" of the arguments. He could have fleshed them out and made them more relevant somehow, I agree.

Besides, it gives Ryukishi a reason to use More Fear and lixaxil
I think the main reason why we don't see the middle of the arguments is cause Ryukishi likes to write in reverse when he gets stuck
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Old 2013-01-22, 21:14   Link #31710
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I hope the Manga will adress Ikuko's Identity too... so is she 'Yasu'? Or just a 'Random Stranger'?

Knowing which of these is true would help a lot in uncovering the "truth". Because then we would finally be able to guess the number of survivors for sure.
Ikuko=Random, FTW.
For the mother. Effing. Win.
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Old 2013-01-22, 21:52   Link #31711
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"First time appearance" of a character that is essential to the story after 3/4 of the story already passed? That 'For The Win'?
Well, with a small change, being her being the "solution" to everything.... and voila... you would have a DEUS EX MACHINA. Well of course that 'last bit' was not included but you see how close it is...

Ahhh wait I almost thought you ment that for real.... but of course you didn't, right? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? *ahaha.wav*


Well it is certain that she started to "exist" at latest in the story from EP3 on. But her showing her face in EP6 for the first time? That is a bit of a stretch. The only other "important" characters that show up late are Will and Lion, but their roles are either secondary, or their existence just didn't made sense before that point.


But I see I bring up old unsolvable "cold cases" back to light. Well we will have to wait for our answers I guess... well at least IF there will be any answers at all...
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Old 2013-01-22, 22:14   Link #31712
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I am TOTALLY serious.

It's mostly that I find Ikuko=Yasu terribly, terribly terribly icky and unlikable.
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Old 2013-01-22, 22:34   Link #31713
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Well I already explained why I HATE Ikuko=RandomStranger.

But honestly I just want a clear answer which of those is the real answer. Every damn "prime theory" I make must be plausible for a world with 2 survivors, as well as a world with 3 survivors...

And then also the possibility that Meta and/or Fantasy scenes are included in the forgeries, or not...

I just say:

WE SPECULATED ENOUGH! GIVE US ANSWERS NOW!
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Old 2013-01-22, 23:13   Link #31714
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Well, Hanyuu was a character very closely related to the story of Higurashi and she wasn't introduced until EP7.

You don't even need an Ikuko to get to Tohya/Battler as long as you know he somehow survived and he started writing forgeries.
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Old 2013-01-23, 00:58   Link #31715
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We'd guessed Battler was alive pre-Chiru. Although I personally assumed someone was writin stories to him rather than him being the writer.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:06   Link #31716
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But Hanyuu was at least mentioned as early as EP1, just by a different name. Even if Ikuko was behind some things as early as EP3, we had no clue she even existed at all until EP6. At best we could theorize there was a survivor somewhere, but if Ikuko isn't that then she's a complete random, not just in the sense that she's a stranger, but also in that narratively speaking she just comes out of nowhere.
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Old 2013-01-23, 14:15   Link #31717
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But Hanyuu was at least mentioned as early as EP1, just by a different name. Even if Ikuko was behind some things as early as EP3, we had no clue she even existed at all until EP6. At best we could theorize there was a survivor somewhere, but if Ikuko isn't that then she's a complete random, not just in the sense that she's a stranger, but also in that narratively speaking she just comes out of nowhere.
Well, there is few evidence to prove that Hanyuu was or was not actually part of the plot that Ryuukishi had planned at the point of Onikakushi, her first mention came at the exact same point as Ikuko/Toya's appearance during Meakashi, the 6th entry in the series, so criticizing Ikuko in comparison to Hanyuu seems unfair to me. I think it is very much up to personal interpretation and liking. Medieval dimension-travelling ghost ancestor of a protagonist from (possibly) outer space or vastly rich shut-in mystery writer who was in the right place to save a protagonist, I had a harder time to swallow the first one.

Hanyuu, just like Ikuko, was also not an actually active force within Higurashi but merely served the function of a device to make a certain plot element possible. Her involvement with the characters beside Rika, which led to several problems, was a nice addition but, in light of the paranoid frenzy they were in anyway, not at all necessary. Her only action as a character was starting the legend in a past that we don't learn about until a TIP at the very end, as well as saving the heroes in a deus ex machina'esque display of power.

Still, Hanyuu (or something like her) was necessary on a plot level to tie up certain elements. But I'd argue that the same counts for Ikuko. If the fictionalization of the stories came from an innocent survivor of the events on the island, who somehow did not know or did not remember the actual events, a helping force was at least to be expected.
In that sense she serves the same function as Hanyuu did, she is somebody who observes but does/did not actually take part in any of the actual events. She aids the protagonist with her powers to redo what seems insufficient. Her actual powers would enable her to stop the events earlier (or let them take a dramatic turn), but her infatuation with the protagonist lets her prefer to spend time with that person and not explore her own abilities.
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Old 2013-01-23, 14:53   Link #31718
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Quote:
"First time appearance" of a character that is essential to the story after 3/4 of the story already passed? That 'For The Win'?
Well, with a small change, being her being the "solution" to everything.... and voila... you would have a DEUS EX MACHINA. Well of course that 'last bit' was not included but you see how close it is...

Ahhh wait I almost thought you ment that for real.... but of course you didn't, right? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? *ahaha.wav*
Ikuko is a Deus Ex Machina regardless of who her identity is. Her being a stranger is actually LESS of an asspull, not more.
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Old 2013-01-23, 16:08   Link #31719
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Well, Hanyuu was a character very closely related to the story of Higurashi and she wasn't introduced until EP7.

You don't even need an Ikuko to get to Tohya/Battler as long as you know he somehow survived and he started writing forgeries.
Yes and no. If I don't remember wrong we heard the characters rambling about Oyashiro-sama and about hearing Oyashiro-sama's presence/footsteps rather early.

And I'm not sure how much Higurashi fits with Knox... I mean Hinamizawa Syndrome? Queen carrier? Spirit of a God showing up and then even taking a physical shape and no one noticing it has horns?

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I am TOTALLY serious.

It's mostly that I find Ikuko=Yasu terribly, terribly terribly icky and unlikable.
Well, considering that Yasu is:
Beatrice (elder, younger and first)
Shannon
Kanon
TMF19YA
Kinzo's grandaughter
Kinzo's daughter
Kuwadorian Beato's daughter (yes, I separed her various family relations, if you feel like counting them as one suit yourself)
Clair
and I won't go into her assorted roles (hidden family head, culprit, maker of the assorted magical creatures and gameboards, writer of the message bottles, each cousin's love interest, supporter of the Beato's cult) and the fact it's unsure if she's a she or a he...

... well, I wouldn't be surprised if she were to be also Ikuko. I guess I wouldn't be surprised not even if it turned out actually she's Okonogi in disguise...

Also GreyZone has a point. She showed up too late and yet she was sort of important and part of the solution about how we never heard of Battler.

We could have guessed Battler managed to escape and have amnesia or was hiding and even that he was writing books about Rokkenjima but to figure out he'd been helped by a random rich stranger that kept the fact she found him hidden and is willing to pay a doctor to have his silence... well, that's too random and too uncommon for us to guess... and reminds me of what Kinzo did with Bice Castiglioni.

In short as far as I'm involved if Ikuko is Yasu it's probably lame (and either she lied to Tohya or most of the backstory we learnt is a lie Tohya told us) but it makes more sense than having her as a random stranger.

said this, Umineko had an Italian submarine filled with gold trying to hide it in Japan so if Ryukishi decided to make another stuff that has no sense maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
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Old 2013-01-23, 16:17   Link #31720
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I could buy Yasu being Ikuko if there was any reason to even consider it, but as far as I'm concerned Yasu=Ikuko is an entirely fanmade construction. There is basically nothing in the whole series that even remotely implies it, really; the only reason to believe it is that you WANT to believe it, not because there's actually anything pointing to it. (I guess you could take Meta-Beatrice being portrayed as the Game Master of Ikuko's EP3/EP4 as evidence, but...well, that still doesn't explain why Lambda is portrayed as the Game Master of EP5, does it?)
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