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Old 2013-01-23, 00:57   Link #23341
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That he stopped her from suicide? Yup, he has done the same for Fraulein Kreutune earlier as I've pointed out.
More like he was willing to be completely battered for the same of over nine thousand Sisters.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:02   Link #23342
Kenju of the Right
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This is still the guy that almost killed Aurelous Dummy in Volume 2

which was because the happiness that he got had been taken away while he was feeling empty on the inside(memory loss) and scared because of the realization that terrible things happen all around the world.
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He did not have extraordinary athletic ability.
He did not have the intellect or skill of a superhuman genius.
He did not have the fortune needed to run a nation.
He did not have the deductive ability to resolve any incident from his easy chair.
He did not have the beauty to ruin a country with a smile.
He did not have the political power to change history with a snap of his fingers.
He did not have the unbelievable power of a Level 5.
But…
Nevertheless… -

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Old 2013-01-23, 01:10   Link #23343
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About the comparison with Shirou... Honestly I don't remember much about Shirou other than the first ten episodes of F/SN were so painful that I seem to have completely forgotten everything else about the story.

But from what I've gathered, Shirou's goal in life is to become the Hero that Kiritsugu could not, but Touma doesn't have that kind of motivation or goal- The title of 'Hero' means jacksquat to him.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:14   Link #23344
kuroishinigami
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There's another impression from the blog that Chaos give about Kamijou that really make me think. Earlier in the volume, we were told that the reason is still able to act like she is now is because she believes that "Hamazura Shiage will forgive her no matter what she does. In a way, for Mugino, "Hamazura Shiage" is the thing that give her the confidence to be Mugino, including all the psycho part of her.

But for Kamijou Touma, the thing that give him confidence to be Kamijou Touma is "the old Kamijou Touma", a person that he only knows as someone who was able to sacrifice his memory to save a girl he barely knew. The old Kamijou Touma might be far from perfect, in fact he might be much less heroic than the current Kamijou Touma, but for the current Kamijou Touma, the old Kamijou Touma is an ideal hero, someone who will sacrifice himself to save other, and a target to be chased after at the same time. In fact, the current Kamijou thinks that he must become the old Kamijou Touma to make people around him happy. If we see his action from this point of view, it's not too surprising to see why the current Kamijou Touma become what he is today. I guess he really is like Shirou in a way, minus the hero title

tl:dr : long rant about Kamijou, feel free to ignore it if you want
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:18   Link #23345
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^ I'm thinking that Touma now is Touma as he is now because in a way he's similar to what Crowley had said about himself regarding the part in which he already got his illusions broken a long time ago. Touma right now just lives up to it.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:29   Link #23346
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
There's another impression from the blog that Chaos give about Kamijou that really make me think. Earlier in the volume, we were told that the reason is still able to act like she is now is because she believes that "Hamazura Shiage will forgive her no matter what she does. In a way, for Mugino, "Hamazura Shiage" is the thing that give her the confidence to be Mugino, including all the psycho part of her.

But for Kamijou Touma, the thing that give him confidence to be Kamijou Touma is "the old Kamijou Touma", a person that he only knows as someone who was able to sacrifice his memory to save a girl he barely knew. The old Kamijou Touma might be far from perfect, in fact he might be much less heroic than the current Kamijou Touma, but for the current Kamijou Touma, the old Kamijou Touma is an ideal hero, someone who will sacrifice himself to save other, and a target to be chased after at the same time. In fact, the current Kamijou thinks that he must become the old Kamijou Touma to make people around him happy. If we see his action from this point of view, it's not too surprising to see why the current Kamijou Touma become what he is today. I guess he really is like Shirou in a way, minus the hero title

tl:dr : long rant about Kamijou, feel free to ignore it if you want

Oooohhh I did mention something like that before a long time ago- That this Kamijou was inspired by the actions of the old Kamijou, in fact he even said it once:

Quote:
"Though I can't remember the events from before, even so it is because of them I'm able to stand here. The 'me' from the past still motivates the 'me' that can't remember anything today. What he left behind isn't in the 'head', but in the 'heart'. So, it doesn't matter if I can't remember, I still understand what I need to do."
But personally I don't think he does it so that people would like him; Lest we forget there are already plenty of people who hates him for this
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:31   Link #23347
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Well, I didn't expect this type of discussion to start

As long Touma doesn't go the lonely hero route and continues recognizing his own limitations and the value of those around him, I'm ok with his self-sacrificing tendencies. Guess douchebaggery bothers me more than extreme morals.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:34   Link #23348
Kenju of the Right
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Oooohhh I did mention something like that before a long time ago- That this Kamijou was inspired by the actions of the old Kamijou, in fact he even said it once:



But personally I don't think he does it so that people would like him; Lest we forget there are already plenty of people who hates him for this
Yep, like he says
for himself

EDIT: oh god I dont want Touma to turn into Archer, I'd just
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He did not have extraordinary athletic ability.
He did not have the intellect or skill of a superhuman genius.
He did not have the fortune needed to run a nation.
He did not have the deductive ability to resolve any incident from his easy chair.
He did not have the beauty to ruin a country with a smile.
He did not have the political power to change history with a snap of his fingers.
He did not have the unbelievable power of a Level 5.
But…
Nevertheless… -

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Old 2013-01-23, 01:37   Link #23349
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Shirou and Touma have someone who they who they admire in which they want to become at risk of endangering their own lives. For Shirou his ideal person was to become Kiritsugu and for Touma it is the old Touma. The fact is they go to far with their ideals that what makes them warped. No normal person would go this far and they know what they are doing is not something people would normally do but still do it anyway knowing they are going to suffer as a result of their actions. As long as they can become the image they are chasing after that to them is someone who brings happiness to others they don't care what price they have to pay themselves.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:48   Link #23350
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The biggest difference between the two is that, Kamijou Touma must become his old self to keep the person close to him(parents, Index) happy, while Shirou do it because he wants too. Personally, I think the biggest problem with these two are they over-idolize their hero figure. Sure, we know that the old Touma is a busybody with strong sense of justice, but as we see in vol 1, the current Kamijou Touma has surpassed the old Kamijou Touma in his self-sacrifice, yet it feels that the new Kamijou feels that the old Kamijou is even more amazing that he is today. That is why even with all his accomplishment, the new Kamijou still willingly throw hs body for other, all for chasing after an idol who he already surpassed in reality.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:49   Link #23351
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Originally Posted by Flames View Post
Shirou and Touma have someone who they who they admire in which they want to become at risk of endangering their own lives. For Shirou his ideal person was to become Kiritsugu and for Touma it is the old Touma. The fact is they go to far with their ideals that what makes them warped. No normal person would go this far and they know what they are doing is not something people would normally do but still do it anyway knowing they are going to suffer as a result of their actions. As long as they can become the image they are chasing after that to them is someone who brings happiness to others they don't care what price they have to pay themselves.

But see, the thing with Kamijou is that never once did he think to himself- "What would the old Kamijou do?". He said that the old him continues to motivate the him now, but he never once used it as a reason to do what he does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
The biggest difference between the two is that, Kamijou Touma must become his old self to keep the person close to him(parents, Index) happy, while Shirou do it because he wants too.
Well that's one reason gone since Index already knows the truth.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:55   Link #23352
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Crushing your enemy's body = Holding back.

Only in this series I guess.


considering heaven canceller is in AC. as long as they aren't completely dead anyone can be fixed back to being fully functional in some way shape or form. so yes it is holding back in a way
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:55   Link #23353
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But see, the thing with Kamijou is that never once did he think to himself- "What would the old Kamijou do?". He said that the old him continues to motivate the him now, but he never once used it as a reason to do what he does.



Well that's one reason gone since Index already knows the truth.
Valid argument, but the thing about Index and Kamachi writing in general is that we were never privy to the character inner struggle until another character pointed it out. That make it a little harder to know whether has the thought of "what would the old Kamijou do?" ever cross his mind while he's doing all these grand adventures of him or not.

For your second point, now that you mention it, we haven't seen any effect of that on our cast haven't we? It's like Kamachi forgot that he dropped the bomb already on old testament. Having index relegated to himegami-level presence doesn't help either
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:57   Link #23354
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well that's one reason gone since Index already knows the truth.
And so do the parents, in fact they knew a lot longer then index if memory serves.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:58   Link #23355
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considering heaven canceller is in AC. as long as they aren't completely dead anyone can be fixed back to being fully functional in some way shape or form. so yes it is holding back in a way
Because crushing your body usually allows for a high percentage of survival from the initial injuries?
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:02   Link #23356
kuroishinigami
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And so do the parents, in fact they knew a lot longer then index if memory serves.
IIRC, they don't, but it's nothing strange. We all know that in the and of anime, the parents are always the last one to know
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:05   Link #23357
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Valid argument, but the thing about Index and Kamachi writing in general is that we were never privy to the character inner struggle until another character pointed it out. That make it a little harder to know whether has the thought of "what would the old Kamijou do?" ever cross his mind while he's doing all these grand adventures of him or not.
Don't forget Aiwass 'thoughts' back in vol 19, he made it extremely clearly that unlike Accelerator, Kamijou isn't shackled by anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
For your second point, now that you mention it, we haven't seen any effect of that on our cast haven't we? It's like Kamachi forgot that he dropped the bomb already on old testament. Having index relegated to himegami-level presence doesn't help either
Because Kamachi felt that Index had too much presence.

Just like how he feels about certain things regarding moe...

EDIT: I can't find the exact quote, but I swore he said something to that effect
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:05   Link #23358
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Because crushing your body usually allows for a high percentage of survival?
in ToAruverse yea. see #2 Kakine as reference. so long as the heart isn't destroyed or head not lopped off/crushed, crushed bodies parts and what not mean nothing.

there was also terra still being alive for a couple mins even after aqua crushed half his body before he finally died.

also the two aztec girl's bodies
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:07   Link #23359
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Originally Posted by dcdfvr View Post
considering heaven canceller is in AC. as long as they aren't completely dead anyone can be fixed back to being fully functional in some way shape or form. so yes it is holding back in a way
I don't think Brunhild knows or cares about what AC can achieve. From her perspective, a person dies when killed

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Originally Posted by dcdfvr View Post
in ToAruverse yea. see #2 Kakine as reference. so long as the heart isn't destroyed or head not lopped off/crushed, crushed bodies parts and what not mean nothing.
Even AC could not make Kakine whole, he had to do it himself. Mikoto doesn't have Dark Matter, so she can't recreate herself, and if it was forced upon her she would become unstable like that Kihara in a wheel chair.
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:12   Link #23360
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Even AC could not make Kakine whole, he had to do it himself. Mikoto doesn't have Dark Matter, so she can't recreate herself, and if it was forced upon her she would become unstable like that Kihara in a wheel chair.
pretty sure she'd be fine as a cyborg due to her electromastery. o god now i'm imagining a cyborg-misaka with electro powers
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