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Old 2013-01-23, 03:13   Link #23381
Kenju of the Right
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Hm, I'm pretty sure trying to understand by using logic in which Touma just said using logic wont work to save people....isnt going to work in trying to understand
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that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-

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Old 2013-01-23, 03:17   Link #23382
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
But what changes can he made by using him as the bait?
Ultimately speaking, events at Hawaii and Baggage City is inevitable.
For one thing Baggage City could have been avoided like you're said. Instead of looking at it from one step to the next, you can look at it from the end goal. If the idea is to lure out Othinus and defeat her, then clearly using Kamijou as bait had work because freaking Othinus DID come out for him! Even if Gremlin had other members working around the globe, what's the point if their Leader is defeated? They could mop them up afterwards if they wanted.

Was there any harm in trying it before involving civilians? Remember they had plenty of preparation time from the moment they fished him out of the water.
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:29   Link #23383
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
For one thing Baggage City have been avoided like you're said. Instead of looking at it from one step to the next, you can look at it from the end goal. If the idea is to lure out Othinus, then clearly using Kamijou as bait had work because freaking Othinus DID come out for him! Even if Gremlin had other members working around the globe, what's the point if their Leader is defeated?

Was there any harm in trying it before involving two major cities? Remember they had plenty of preparation time.
You sounds like Othinus will wait for them?
She is not someone you can defeat without enough planning and resources. And unlike Fiamma who made himself a obvious target for everyone, Othinus in the dark. Othinus still waited until the end of Baggage City arc to show herself despite Touma intervened as already back in Hawaii.

So yeah, let's prepare, and Othinus will certainly take time to make Hawaii burn, and find herself a replacement for Baggage City.

And even they do beat Othinus, that doesn't mean the damage caused by the other members will be undone. And without Levinia pitting Touma and everyone against Gremlin, Othinus's underlings will be bale to do far far more damage.

Remeber, Touma's argument is about saving people. Then reducing casualties is the top priority, not just defeating Othinus. Especially when not all members works directly under Othinus's surveillance.
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:42   Link #23384
OverNOut
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Leivinia is trying to tell him about The Invisible Thing in this statement right?
Quote:
“…You need to be careful from now on. What you hold is not good or evil. You hold the seeds to a great wave that cannot be described in those terms. Perhaps it is the same thing that was once brought to bloom by the man who built up a city of steel and electricity or the woman who smiles thinly in the depths of an old cathedral. Or perhaps it is something that will swallow up even that giant flower. If you can completely grasp it in your hand, it will give you great power, but if you cannot, it will be indescribably disastrous for you.”

Last edited by OverNOut; 2013-01-23 at 03:52.
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:42   Link #23385
shmaster
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Another thing I forgot to mention.

Touma gave himself too much credit.
He really think Othinus will put him as her top priority?
When Othinus showed up in Baggage City, her top priority is actually in disposing Dainslaf, that Marian had been using against her order, not because Othinus eagerly wants to confront the IB.
In other word, to Othinus, IB is even less of a threat than the Dainslaf.
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:49   Link #23386
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
But what changes can he made by using him as the bait?
Ultimately speaking, events at Hawaii and Baggage City is inevitable.

Othinus need the Volcano to be her cauldron, Othinus need a test ground for her holistic theory.
Even if Touma can lure her out, her organization can still carry out their objective. Have you forgotten, that in the Hawaii incident, there is only one formal Gremlin member presence with two other part timers?

Think about it, if Birdway didn't drag everyone into Hawaii, what would happen instead. Yeah right, let's lure Othinus per Touma's idea. Othinus can bring her entire organization sans three people to meet Touma, and that three people can cause much more chaos in Hawaii with no people to stop them.
Touma is merely an obstacle to crush, not a reason for Othinus to change her strategical objective.

Sure, you can argue the Hawaii incident lead to the creation of Science Guardian, and made Gremlin choose Baggage City for the Holistic experiment.... But hey, at least we now know clear location where the experiment will occur. Far better than not knowing what is the next location that Gremlin will commit their next atrocity.

I am getting pretty sick of Touma's logic. He completely overlook the fact that whether Birdway manipulate the events or not, Othinus is still going to do what she is going to do. Yet, he speaks as if everyone dies because of Birdway. And his only reasoning behind that is because Birdway didn't sacrifice him. Am I the only one who sees the fallacy in this?
It was already quite clear from the previous novel what Touma is...he doesn't think and plan like the plot movers. He goes where events lead him and opposes anything where anyone gets hurt. And it somehow works out for him that's why he is entitled to be like that. Logically, it should not work, but Touma is not a logical entity. Who knows if his being in the right place at the right time is not fated somehow
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:50   Link #23387
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverNOut View Post
Leivinia is trying to tell him about The Invisible Thing in this statement right?


But the identity is still unclear.
I think she's talking about the strenght of his will or something like that. Just one line before she dismissed that which is hidden within his right hand as something that's not that big a threat.

She's comparing him to Aleister, Laura (probably, I can't say for sure), and something else that I didn't quite get. Probably in how driven they are by their own ideals.
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:51   Link #23388
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And we now know she wasn't holding back, at least in the sense she was using her full physical strength.
She didn't use any magic though. Physically she already hit full speed from the get go
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Old 2013-01-23, 03:58   Link #23389
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
You sounds like Othinus will wait for them?

I have a feeling we're going about this the wrong way-


Quote:
And the way to get me to accept it would probably have been much simpler than what you went through,” muttered Kamijou while lying on the ground. “It didn’t have to be Hawaii and Baggage City. It didn’t have to be Fraulein Kreutune, the final piece needed for Gungnir.”
His voice was frail.

“If you truly needed a sacrifice…”

But there was a strong core hidden beneath.

“If you needed to be able to take action up until the moment the issue was resolved and therefore could not cut off pieces of your own flesh…”

It was as if he was explaining the very, very basics to a small child who did not understand some simple matter.

“You just had to choose me. That would have been enough for me to accept it.”

And that is the main point of it all- He couldn't accept her using her own method that involved thousands of people without exploring all other options first, Anything and Everything till there is no other options left.


Quote:
"It may have been a thin, thin thread and it may have been nowhere near as sure a thing as Fraulein Kreutune…but why did you make the decision without me when there was another way!?"
Maybe Kamijou's plan wouldn't work, maybe there is only a small chance- but don't you think it's worth a shot before condemning an entire city? Hawaii might be inevitable, but there was no reason why she had to hide her plans from them which would lead to one major incident after another.
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Old 2013-01-23, 04:03   Link #23390
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I am getting pretty sick of Touma's logic. He completely overlook the fact that whether Birdway manipulate the events or not, Othinus is still going to do what she is going to do. Yet, he speaks as if everyone dies because of Birdway. And his only reasoning behind that is because Birdway didn't sacrifice him. Am I the only one who sees the fallacy in this?
So your logic is that, it's perfectly OK if Birdway does whatever she wants, since the outcome is predetermined anyway?

In any case, Touma has no particular problem with her logic, he just said that society needs a necessary amount of evil to run after all. What he has a problem with is Birdway looking down on people and sacrificing them like chess pieces. He only brought up himself as an example because he's related to the incident, he's not a martyr.
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Old 2013-01-23, 04:24   Link #23391
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Awesome gambit by Birdway with her flintlock right there and even more awesome counter-speech by Touma.
As others have said some are missinterpreting what Touma said. He's not saying Birdway is evil or completely in the wrong, he's saying than there was an option of using him as bait with rumors that may have worked and would have prevented thousands of people in being involved in Gremlin's plans. He berates Birdway for not talking to him and trying to seek other options. He doesn't say using logic to save people is wrong, he says that without emotion logically there is no reason to save people when in the end they'll die anyway.

And yeah, Othinus came out in Baggage City to destroy Dainsleaf but also to see what was inside Touma's right arm and then kill him to try to move Imagine Breaker to another, less troublesome host, as Ollerus and Fiamma said. Why would she come out only to destroy Dainsleif when Touma was already going to do so?

Touma is not a death seeker, he clearly doesn't believe in it (as he told Fraulein in this volume and Mikoto in the sisters arc). He makes the point that normal people will want to save someone if they can and he has power to do it, so, why shouldn't he? From the start of the series Touma has been a person who helps everyone, friends, strangers and even former villains if he can. He doesn't need a reason to save someone.
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Old 2013-01-23, 04:28   Link #23392
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well i have a though regarding of touma....., honestly..., i dont think his way of though is too like "i am a messiah therefore sacrifice me instead" logic..., truthfully he is insane but his logic isn't disgusting or broken....he just suggest some option to birdway to solve a problem..., he just want to get involved with "plan" which birdway made..., he just angry that birdway just sacrifice a bigger risk and victim which will make birdway became e new villain than use some "uncertain" option with some efficiency with minimal victim..., he know the risk and know he is a naive....., he know the reason behind birdway action and didn't look down her ideal....He isn't complete ignorant like "justice solve everything" bastard that shirou believe it...., he just offer some option that take minimal risk ..., his thought is pretty logical but still ideal in same time


and to solve some problem....man need to be insane first
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Old 2013-01-23, 05:17   Link #23393
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Maybe Kamijou's plan wouldn't work, maybe there is only a small chance- but don't you think it's worth a shot before condemning an entire city? Hawaii might be inevitable, but there was no reason why she had to hide her plans from them which would lead to one major incident after another.
But that doesn't serve as a reason for him to blame Birdway, not a bit.
So he say he knows the risk, so he say he is naive... and he still guilt trip Birdway on top of that? I guess things like this happens when you skip logic, right?

What Birdway did is certainly immoral, but what Touma suggested is something far more irresponsible. And in the end, he is angry NOT because Birdway didn't provide the best solution, but he is angry because Birdway didn't offer a solution that make him feels good about it. He become fixated on demanding a response from Birdway that can satisfy him that he has completely forgotten his original point on saving people.
Trying all other options first? Do you know Gremlin's operation already started? That progress has already been made at Hawaii? You are asking for other options when immediate counter measure is necessary?

Birdway's manipulation of events in Hawaii actually reduced the casualty by bringing someone there to stop Gremlin. Really, compare to two cities getting burned up, it is a pretty good trade from the entire US caught in a coup d'état and becoming a theocracy controlled by vengeful magicians.

Really, usually I am pretty fine with Touma's rant in general. But he really cross the line this time. Blaming the lack of your personal satisfaction onto a girl. This is just wrong. Especially he understands there are casualties either way, and base on his own ideology, he is in no moral high point to blame anyone as he can't save everyone either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyHunter View Post
And yeah, Othinus came out in Baggage City to destroy Dainsleaf but also to see what was inside Touma's right arm and then kill him to try to move Imagine Breaker to another, less troublesome host, as Ollerus and Fiamma said. Why would she come out only to destroy Dainsleif when Touma was already going to do so?
That doesn't beat my argument that IB is not Othinus's top priority though.
I mean, I can ask the same type of question in: why hadn't she waited until Touma had destroyed the sword, instead of arriving there first to destroy the sword in person? Or I can say, she can come in anytime during the entire Baggage City arc, but what motivated Othinus to finally do something is Marian going nuts.
I won't say she has absolutely no concern over IB, but it certainly is not something that is high on her priority list.
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Old 2013-01-23, 06:35   Link #23394
Master Assassin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right View Post
EDIT: oh god I dont want Touma to turn into Archer, I'd just
Somehow I think even Archer would be disgusted someone like Touma exists...
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Old 2013-01-23, 06:47   Link #23395
Ashaman
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Quote:
I won't say she has absolutely no concern over IB, but it certainly is not something that is high on her priority list.
Which is why:
Quote:
“Even if we don’t know the makeup of Gremlin, where their headquarters are, or who their leader is, we still have my right hand! You could have at least leaked false information saying it was a threat to Gremlin as a whole!! With the power of the Dawn-Colored Sunlight, you definitely could have done that!!”
Touma suggests maniplating info to make it a much biger threat
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Old 2013-01-23, 06:59   Link #23396
LazyHunter
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
That doesn't beat my argument that IB is not Othinus's top priority though.
I mean, I can ask the same type of question in: why hadn't she waited until Touma had destroyed the sword, instead of arriving there first to destroy the sword in person? Or I can say, she can come in anytime during the entire Baggage City arc, but what motivated Othinus to finally do something is Marian going nuts.
I won't say she has absolutely no concern over IB, but it certainly is not something that is high on her priority list.
I maybe explained myself a little bad. Why I tried to say was that IB was also a concern for Othinus and she didn't dismiss Touma and the Invisible thing until after beating them both. She didn't know how powerful the Invisible thing and actually is dissapointed at how easily she destroys it. Thus Touma's idea of feeding Gremlin rumors about IB to convince Othinus he's a bigger threat she should deal with before contininuying her plans is a valid one. It may haven't worked but it could have avoided a few messes later on.

And to your question of why she didn't wait until after Touma destroyed Dainsleif to attack him I'm as clueless as you are, and the answer is probably rule of cool, it'd be much more threatening for her to appear out of nowhere and crush Touma's hand as he reaches for the sword than simply just appearing in front of him afterwards thanking him for doing her work and pwning him. Truthfully, I think both options would have worked well, only Kamachi knows why she acted like that.
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Old 2013-01-23, 07:01   Link #23397
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
But that doesn't serve as a reason for him to blame Birdway, not a bit.
So he say he knows the risk, so he say he is naive... and he still guilt trip Birdway on top of that? I guess things like this happens when you skip logic, right?
Yes do you know why? Because she is NOT suppose to feel good about it! She is NOT suppose to have a clear conscience!

Just because he is wrong, doesn't mean she is right either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
What Birdway did is certainly immoral, but what Touma suggested is something far more irresponsible. And in the end, he is angry NOT because Birdway didn't provide the best solution, but he is angry because Birdway didn't offer a solution that make him feels good about it. He become fixated on demanding a response from Birdway that can satisfy him that he has completely forgotten his original point on saving people.
Forgotten his original point on saving people? Where are you getting all of this from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Birdway's manipulation of events in Hawaii actually reduced the casualty by bringing someone there to stop Gremlin. Really, compare to two cities getting burned up, it is a pretty good trade from the entire US caught in a coup d'état and becoming a theocracy controlled by vengeful magicians.
Accept a problem just because it was smaller than another problem?


Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Trying all other options first? Do you know Gremlin's operation already started? That progress has already been made at Hawaii? You are asking for other options when immediate counter measure is necessary?
If they had stop them at Hawaii and not let them jump into Europe they would have plenty of time. Hell the whole time from NT2 to NT5 was a period of several days and that was with allowing Gremlin to progress.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-01-23 at 08:38.
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Old 2013-01-23, 07:06   Link #23398
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Another thing I forgot to mention.

Touma gave himself too much credit.
He really think Othinus will put him as her top priority?
When Othinus showed up in Baggage City, her top priority is actually in disposing Dainslaf, that Marian had been using against her order, not because Othinus eagerly wants to confront the IB.
In other word, to Othinus, IB is even less of a threat than the Dainslaf.
Nah, that's all in your head. It looked like they were equivalent problems in her eyes (just like everything else, lol). She clearly didn't show anything as selecting top priority when she destroyed either of them, nor Touma ever implied he was her top priority ... he just said he was a potential threat that she couldn't overlook. Since they're equal, none is more or less dangerous than the other and she wouldn't care less about what she must destroy first as long as they're both destroyed.
Quote:
She destroyed it because it was dangerous.

That was the exact thought process as Kamijou Touma. In that case, she could have just left it to Kamijou, but instead she had carelessly destroyed him.

Why?

She probably had no reason.

She had spotted him first, so she had destroyed him first. When the other problem remained, she had destroyed it too. That was her thought process as she wielded that great power. No firm direction could be felt in it. Or perhaps, it was not needed to be felt.
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Old 2013-01-23, 07:12   Link #23399
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
But that doesn't serve as a reason for him to blame Birdway, not a bit.
So he say he knows the risk, so he say he is naive... and he still guilt trip Birdway on top of that? I guess things like this happens when you skip logic, right?

What Birdway did is certainly immoral, but what Touma suggested is something far more irresponsible. And in the end, he is angry NOT because Birdway didn't provide the best solution, but he is angry because Birdway didn't offer a solution that make him feels good about it. He become fixated on demanding a response from Birdway that can satisfy him that he has completely forgotten his original point on saving people.
Trying all other options first? Do you know Gremlin's operation already started? That progress has already been made at Hawaii? You are asking for other options when immediate counter measure is necessary?

Birdway's manipulation of events in Hawaii actually reduced the casualty by bringing someone there to stop Gremlin. Really, compare to two cities getting burned up, it is a pretty good trade from the entire US caught in a coup d'état and becoming a theocracy controlled by vengeful magicians.

Really, usually I am pretty fine with Touma's rant in general. But he really cross the line this time. Blaming the lack of your personal satisfaction onto a girl. This is just wrong. Especially he understands there are casualties either way, and base on his own ideology, he is in no moral high point to blame anyone as he can't save everyone either.
You seem to have missed the point. Birdway, all by her lonesome, decided on a path that led to numerous sacrifices of people, not because she had no choice, but because it was the most convinient. She didnt even try to find a better way. At this rate, what she's doing isn't much different than what Othinus is doing.

Quote:
That doesn't beat my argument that IB is not Othinus's top priority though.
I mean, I can ask the same type of question in: why hadn't she waited until Touma had destroyed the sword, instead of arriving there first to destroy the sword in person? Or I can say, she can come in anytime during the entire Baggage City arc, but what motivated Othinus to finally do something is Marian going nuts.
I won't say she has absolutely no concern over IB, but it certainly is not something that is high on her priority list.
It's called killing two birds with one stone. It's true she only went there because of Dainsleif, but Imagine Breaker must weigh on her mind. After all, she made sure to crush Touma 's hand to release the Invisible Thing. If Imagine Breaker was really low on her list, she would have let him destroy Dainsleif and then kill him from behind.
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Old 2013-01-23, 07:41   Link #23400
Twi
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
So your logic is that, it's perfectly OK if Birdway does whatever she wants, since the outcome is predetermined anyway?

In any case, Touma has no particular problem with her logic, he just said that society needs a necessary amount of evil to run after all. What he has a problem with is Birdway looking down on people and sacrificing them like chess pieces. He only brought up himself as an example because he's related to the incident, he's not a martyr.
She's a magician, what did he expect?
There's a reason they have magical names...
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