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Old 2013-01-23, 07:53   Link #23401
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
She's a magician, what did he expect?
There's a reason they have magical names...
Since when does being a magician means that you're a cold blooded puppet master?
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Old 2013-01-23, 07:56   Link #23402
Ashaman
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Since when does being a magician means that you're a cold blooded puppet master?
Since when does being a magicain NOT make you a coldblooded selfish bastard/bitch?
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:00   Link #23403
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Since when does being a magicain NOT make you a coldblooded selfish bastard/bitch?
Amakusa-Style Remix of Church.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:05   Link #23404
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Since when does being a magicain NOT make you a coldblooded selfish bastard/bitch?
Orsola is also a magician (to access to the Book of Law, you most likely have to be a magician).
And then there's the Jeans owner from the Norse SS.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:06   Link #23405
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Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
Orsola is also a magician (to access to the Book of Law, you most likely have to be a magician).
They also gave her the Angel staff (for what little help it did) which implied that she could use it... To a certain degree I'm sure.

I would also like to add the Witch Corps has some nice people, as well as some of the Anglican nuns.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:06   Link #23406
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Amakusa-Style Remix of Church.
They're a minority and, in case you're forgetting, their Supreme Pontiff Kaori was the first one to nearly kill Touma, only leaving him alive since they didn't want Index to run away.

In fact she checked to see if it was alright if he disappeared. It was mentioned you need some kind of trauma or drive to become a magician. Happy people don't need the backdoor known as magic.

Edit: Orsola is also a minority and Agnese nearly crucified her just over a da*n book.

Not all magicians are bad, but the majority are.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:11   Link #23407
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
They're a minority and, in case you're forgetting, their Supreme Pontiff Kaori was the first one to nearly kill Touma, only leaving him alive since they didn't want Index to run away.
She was fighting an enemy.

So what if they're a minority? They're still magicians aren't they?

That's like saying everyone fits the description so long as you leave out those that don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Not all magicians are bad, but the majority are.
But that's not what you had implied.

Quote:
She's a magician, what did he expect?
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:16   Link #23408
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Since when does being a magicain NOT make you a coldblooded selfish bastard/bitch?
And then do they have to?
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:18   Link #23409
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
She was fighting an enemy.

So what if they're a minority? They're still magicians aren't they?

That's like saying everyone fits the description so long as you leave out those that don't.




But that's not what you had implied.
By their definitions a magician will do whatever it takes to accomplish a goal, ethics be damned, once their sorcery name is declared. Does Orsola or the Amakusa even have one of those?

But, let me revise what I said:

She's the leader of a Magical Cabal that wants to take over both sides and reign supreme (which GREMLIN is threatening and hence her competition) in a world where the moment someone declares a sorcery name blood will probably be spilled and if you're in the crossfire or just around, you are boned. If a thousand or a hundred thousand sacrifices are needed, then oh well.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:22   Link #23410
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
By their definitions a magician will do whatever it takes to accomplish a goal, ethics be damned, once their sorcery name is declared. Does Orsola or the Amakusa even have one of those?
Index has a magic name, she never threw away her morals.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-01-23 at 08:36.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:38   Link #23411
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Index has a magic name, she never threw away her morals.

I don't see why you make it sound like those with magic names are certified bad guys.
Index was modified to not know she could use magic and she doesn't even remember what she was like in the past. Memories determine how we face the world and what our morals in light of previous experiences alongside motions. Besides, what was done to her is another example since it was solely to keep her in line.

I said they throw away ethics/morals, not that they are certified bad guys. If it's in the way of their goal, they'll punt such things away, even for good reasons. Every one of the magicians we've met and focused on follows this to an extent.

Orsola ran from the Amakusa and they tracked her down. Yes, they had good intentions, but they didn't honor her wishes. Granted it was because she was scared, but kidnapping someone is hardly ethical, even if for a good reason.

Tsuchimikado....do I even have to mention him?

Stiyl has mentioned burning the living to death and the dead to ashes, not to mention he tried roasting Kamijou when they first met. Kaori whupped his butt to the extent that being made of iron and no leathal intent was the only reason he survived and he didn't even know her. Acqua actually came the closest to killing him for a while or demanding he cut off his hand when his organization was the one causing the problems (Fiamma liked to play chessmaster, I know).

Walking porn, I mean Orianna and her handler were willing to subvert the entire populace of Academy City's free will to the church because it would make the world a better place in their opinion with no proof otherwise. Fukiyose was victimized because of it for one thing, and if it wasn't her it would be another bystander, not to mention Himegami.

Ouma's attack on Touma's home and then the restaurant (which would have caused serious damage with all the glass shrapnel if IB wasn't handy) to kidnap a little girl and pick her brain.

Did I mention these are supposed to be the good (well, reasonable) guys?

Ethics go out the window if they're in the way for magicians. It's why they keep themselves separated and in the dark from regular society. What Birdway is doing is no different than any other magician in terms of ethics.

Edit: Note this also applies to certain Espers, GREMLIN, and Kiriharas.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:47   Link #23412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Index was modified to not know she could use magic and she doesn't even remember what she was like in the past. Memories determine how we face the world and what our morals in light of previous experiences alongside motions.
What does it matter who she was? Her actions in the present is what counts.

Better yet we can draw parallels with Kamijou, the core of her personality has not been lost with those memories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
I said they throw away ethics/morals, not that they are certified bad guys. If it's in the way of their goal, they'll punt such things away, even for good reasons. Every one follows this to an extent.


Orsola ran from the Amakusa and they tracked her down. Yes, they had good intentions, but they didn't honor her wishes. Granted it was because she was scared, but kidnapping someone is hardly ethical, even if for a good reason.

Tsuchimikado....do I even have to mention him?

Stiyl has mentioned burning the living to death and the dead to ashes, not to mention he tried roasting Kamijou when they first met. Kaori whupped his butt and he didn't even know her. Acqua actually came the closest to killing him for a while or demanding he cut off his hand when his organization was the one causing the problems (Fiamma liked to play chessmaster, I know).

Walking porn, I mean Orianna and her handler were willing to subvert the entire populace of Academy City's free will to the church because it would make the world a better place. Fukiyose was victimized because of it for one thing, and if it wasn't her it would be another bystander, not to mention Himegami.

Ethics go out the window if they're in the way for magicians. It's why they keep themselves separated and in the dark from regular society. What Birdway is doing is no different than any other magician in terms of ethics.

Essentially nobody's a saint, but are you trying to say that if you're capable of doing so-and-so bad stuff, you're just as likely to do even worse things?

There are some lines people don't cross- your mileage may vary but to say that you should expect the worst from all magicians seem to be taking it a tad bit too far.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:56   Link #23413
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
...So? What does it matter who she was? Her actions in the present is what counts.

Better yet we can draw parallels with Kamijou, the core of her personality has not been lost with those memories.

Essentially nobody's a saint, but are you trying to say that if you're capable of doing so-and-so bad stuff, you're just as likely to do even worse things?

There are some lines people don't cross- your mileage may vary but to say that you should expect the worst from all magicians seem to be taking it a tad bit too far.
You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm saying, don't expect magicians to adhere to what society considers ethical behavior, for good or for bad. Magicians, as a whole, do what they need to in order to accomplish a goal, and they themselves acknowledge this throughout the series, otherwise they wouldn't be so secretive or need a sorcery name. They could do a lot of good if they went public, without the limitations of Espers, but a lot of their sins and questionable practices would come to light as a result, including WWIII, and with the good comes the bad.

It's the reason Magic is a backdoor in the first place.
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Old 2013-01-23, 09:05   Link #23414
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm saying, don't expect magicians to adhere to what society considers ethical behavior, for good or for bad. Magicians, as a whole, do what they need to in order to accomplish a goal, and they themselves acknowledge this throughout the series, otherwise they wouldn't be so secretive or need a sorcery name. They could do a lot of good if they went public, without the limitations of Espers, but a lot of their sins and questionable practices would come to light as a result, including WWIII, and with the good comes the bad.

It's the reason Magic is a backdoor in the first place.
Fair enough, I've got nothing else to add.
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Old 2013-01-23, 09:07   Link #23415
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Fair enough, I've got nothing else to add.
Me neither. We've wasted a page on the debate...and I was running out of steam anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Assassin View Post
Somehow I think even Archer would be disgusted someone like Touma exists...
Archer would put an arrow between his eyes and consider it an act of mercy.
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Old 2013-01-23, 09:10   Link #23416
Chaos2Frozen
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Me neither. We've wasted a page on the debate...and I was running out of steam anyway.
*pat pat*

Otsukare-sama deshita~
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Old 2013-01-23, 09:30   Link #23417
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Now that I think about it, the only Saint-like Saint so far is Kanzaki, who is always concerned about saving her enemy. The rest don't seem to give a squat about mass producing human pasta.
Brunhild is like a jerk with a heart of gold who can go to the extreme to save a single child.

Silvia allows Ollerus to keep about 100 until they get adopted.

Even Acqua has helped a lot of people during his days as mercenary.

The only difference is that we know the soft side of Kanzaki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm, did you think Brunhild was aiming that giant claymore to miss her when she got all the way up close?

If so she wouldn't have bothered right ?
She could very well command her to bite off her tongue to death with her rune magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdfvr View Post
most likely no but with ToAruverse anything's a possibility

that doesn't tell us her intention as

that could be to cause a shockwave incase mikoto dodged or to smash her directly. we'll never really know since it failed
Because that claymore has an edge and could have used it a slicing sonic waves like any other saint can like Kanzaki.

I don't think she wanted to kill her but be sure of of inmovilize her enough to not have her crossing paths again.

Also it would be a bad idea if both Brunhild and Birdway reveals their trump cards before the main dish. And Birdway's seems to be enough strong to face Fiamma's golden arms but didn't for secret issues.

Oh well...

What I find hilarious and wall-bang worthy is Touma is too much foccused on Birdway as if she were the mastermind that needs to be stopped.
It seems he really forgot Ollerus told him that Fiamma was going around the city probably going ORE-SAMA on people and unknown things while waiting in the dark to show once again the power the hand that saves the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
She's a magician, what did he expect?
There's a reason they have magical names...
Now that you say that... Birdway never used her magical name, Regnum771, something Styl, Tsuchimikiado, Kanzaki, etc did something magicians usually says when they get to kill mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Index has a magic name, she never threw away her morals.
I wonder, maybe she forgot about it? There is no perfect in this series.
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Last edited by Miraluka; 2013-01-23 at 09:44.
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Old 2013-01-23, 11:28   Link #23418
Ashaman
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Quote:
Archer would put an arrow between his eyes and consider it an act of mercy.
Really? I'm not terribly familar with FSN, so explaination please. PM me if you want.

Quote:
What I find hilarious and wall-bang worthy is Touma is too much foccused on Birdway as if she were the mastermind that needs to be stopped.
It seems he really forgot Ollerus told him that Fiamma was going around the city probably going ORE-SAMA on people and unknown things while waiting in the dark to show once again the power the hand that saves the world.
But right now Birdway is the one that is a direct threat to the girl he needs to save. Even if you beat the final boss, it doesn't matter if the Dragon kills the princess you are trying to protect.

Quote:
I wonder, maybe she forgot about it? There is no perfect in this series.
I'm sure Index was the one who told us her Magic name. Its something to do with a Lamb and sheltering/protecting people/something.
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Old 2013-01-23, 11:53   Link #23419
Twi
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Really? I'm not terribly familar with FSN, so explaination please. PM me if you want.



But right now Birdway is the one that is a direct threat to the girl he needs to save. Even if you beat the final boss, it doesn't matter if the Dragon kills the princess you are trying to protect.



I'm sure Index was the one who told us her Magic name. Its something to do with a Lamb and sheltering/protecting people/something.
Message sent.

Birdway didn't use her title because...well, we all know she isn't going all out.
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Old 2013-01-23, 12:06   Link #23420
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post

What I find hilarious and wall-bang worthy is Touma is too much foccused on Birdway as if she were the mastermind that needs to be stopped.
It seems he really forgot Ollerus told him that Fiamma was going around the city probably going ORE-SAMA on people and unknown things while waiting in the dark to show once again the power the hand that saves the world.

Now that you say that... Birdway never used her magical name, Regnum771, something Styl, Tsuchimikiado, Kanzaki, etc did something magicians usually says when they get to kill mode.
Fiamma isn't the immediate treat. If he starts to show up and do some trouble again. then his up for another beating but right now. Birdway is the troublesome girl that needs spanking

All magicians who say their magic name are in serious mode or serious business. because to them they are trying to uphold their goal by saying it. which means the monsters of magic side are really holding back this time. Well their target isn't the brats of science side but Othinus is their ultimate goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Really? I'm not terribly familar with FSN, so explaination please. PM me if you want.

I'm sure Index was the one who told us her Magic name. Its something to do with a Lamb and sheltering/protecting people/something.
Because Touma is on his way in becoming a counter guardian and its a n act of mercy for Archer to not condemn him into that path.

Index's magic name is pertaining to protecting wisdom or something along those lines. her role was to protect the grimoire not the people.
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