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Old 2013-01-23, 06:37   Link #2721
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
In South Korea, India, China, the Phillipines... anywhere in Asia except Japan, really. Look how inflated that yen is! :P

That's why American animators dont outsource work to Japan anymore.

p.s. yes I kno there are more than 5 asian countries.
Well many of them are copying how Japan does things.

Also, those countries do fine inbetweening work and what not, but none of them have produced anything of any real quality themselves. I don't see many good shows in Korean, Hindi, Chinese or Tagalog. At least not yet. Maybe in the future, but so much the better.

Quote:
I believe thats more using cheaper animation tactics (limited animation), outsourcing animation to Korea (yep, even Japan does it too now), and paying Japanese animators around 1,000,000 yen a year (which is terrible). Japanese animators between ages of 20 and 30 get paid $11,600 a year

And also PPG was made in the time when American animators got paid $50,000 starting. The animation legends were raking in $100,000+ easy.
Well, part of why the Japanese do it well is that they know how to use limited animation skillfully. When other people do it, it just looks stiff and cheap (well anime can look cheap too sometimes...).

Low wages is an issue for Japanese animators though, but I don't think the cost difference is purely down to wages, but then I'm no expert on the nitty-gritty of animation.
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Old 2013-01-23, 06:58   Link #2722
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Well many of them are copying how Japan does things.

Also, those countries do fine inbetweening work and what not, but none of them have produced anything of any real quality themselves. I don't see many good shows in Korean, Hindi, Chinese or Tagalog. At least not yet. Maybe in the future, but so much the better.
My only point was that that's part of how Japan can produce animation for such a low cost, but it is still efficiency since it is international trading and the rest of Asia has a relative advantage in animating. Inbetweening is the vast majority of what we see on the screen, so that's no small amount of work.

And you know Japan animation originally copied American animation too, right? Then they built off that to make something uniquely Japanese. Copying can bring about new ideas and styles.
Quote:
Well, part of why the Japanese do it well is that they know how to use limited animation skillfully. When other people do it, it just looks stiff and cheap (well anime can look cheap too sometimes...).

Low wages is an issue for Japanese animators though, but I don't think the cost difference is purely down to wages, but then I'm no expert on the nitty-gritty of animation.
I agree. The best Japanese animation houses have found this nirvana of full animation with the cost of limited animation, yet as little limited animation as possible.

Nowadays, since most Japanese and American animation studios export the vast majority of their work to other Asian countries, the only major differences in the costs of the two is basically domestic wages and to a lesser extent animation techniques (American TV cartoons still tend to lean toward techniques that cost more, like recording voices before final animation. I think every Japanese studio today do the voice recording after the rough or final animation is done, which saves money). Though American animators get paid way less than they did in PPG's time.

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-01-23 at 07:25.
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Old 2013-01-23, 08:32   Link #2723
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
My only point was that that's part of how Japan can produce animation for such a low cost, but it is still efficiency since it is international trading and the rest of Asia has a relative advantage in animating. Inbetweening is the vast majority of what we see on the screen, so that's no small amount of work.
Yes, but I don't think low wages alone account for the difference. In other Japanese industries the wages are similar to the west, but they produce for a lower cost because they can get more work done per man hour(for instance in the 80s-90s Japanese factories took almost half the man hours to assemble a car then an American or European plant). How much that applies to Japanese animation I'm not sure, but we do see the results of many labour saving techniques in Japanese animation today, which I think is the bigger component of the cost saving. But again, I know more about car manufacturing then animation.
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And you know Japan animation originally copied American animation too, right? Then they built off that to make something uniquely Japanese. Copying can bring about new ideas and styles.
Absolutely, but whereas the Japanese went beyond American animation, I haven't seen the same of China, Korea etc. If one of those countries makes the next Dragonball, I'll change my mind, but what I've seen has been crude, even by 1970s anime standards.
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I agree. The best Japanese animation houses have found this nirvana of full animation with the cost of limited animation, yet as little limited animation as possible.

Nowadays, since most Japanese and American animation studios export the vast majority of their work to other Asian countries, the only major differences in the costs of the two is basically domestic wages and to a lesser extent animation techniques (American TV cartoons still tend to lean toward techniques that cost more, like recording voices before final animation. I think every Japanese studio today do the voice recording after the rough or final animation is done, which saves money). Though American animators get paid way less than they did in PPG's time.
I think there's a bit more too it then that. From what I can see Japanese studios have become adept at manufacturing animation on a continuous basis, with a very quick product cycle. Japanese animation studios can have a show prepared and animated in about a year, and animate on a continuous basis such that they crank out an episode every week. Getting that kind of production requires more then simply brute force numbers, as a show has to go through several processes at once before it can go out (planning->storyboarding->Key frames-> In-betweening -> Dubbing/audio -> finishing). Getting all that done quickly and efficiently requires good planning and management. Massed cheap manpower only really helps for jobs like inbetweening.

They get everything done in a fast time schedule, with very little "spare time", a western episode might be finished a week or two before airing, a Japanese episode is often finished mere hours before it's aired (though this means you sometimes get unfinished episodes). That so little time is left before airing might seem a bit absurd, but it's really quite efficient, because time spent between being finished and being aired is wasted time, and sounds a lot like the "lean" philosophy seen in Japanese Manufacturing (as a comparison, Japanese manufacturing only keeps hours worth of inventory, compared to days worth in an old western plant).
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Old 2013-01-23, 10:54   Link #2724
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Even then, that's pushing the so-called respect a little too far. Everyone, including myself in 30-35 years time, will have to be reminded on how outdated I am and the only thing the old should do is to prepare themselves for this fateful day.
I'm trying hard not to take offense at comments like this. Apparently sexism and racism are unacceptable notions, but not ageism?

At 63, I don't consider myself "outdated" at all. I'm more technologically savvy than 90%+ of Americans, and I pay close attention to political and social trends on a daily basis. I even watch anime, for goodness sake.

I suppose when I was in my twenties I might have had thoughts similar to yours, though at the time I had academic colleagues in their fifties and sixties who were still sharp-minded and intriguing. I do have some negative opinions about modern culture, particularly its emphasis on greed and violence, but those opinions are not a result of my age so much as my experience. The world of contemporary popular culture, particularly the culture that is expressed in mainstream Hollywood movies, is a narrow and impoverished one indeed.
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Old 2013-01-23, 13:54   Link #2725
Kudryavka
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Ok, I think we were on diff pages at first... I gave your stuff some serious thought and on topic, yes, just efficiency wise, Japanese animation is very efficient and cheap(er) (by outsourcing and certain animation shortcuts, which are done for tradition and how they were taught, not just being cheap). Dont bother reading the rest if thats all you wanted, unless you want to have a legitimate animation discussion.
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Absolutely, but whereas the Japanese went beyond American animation
Well that's your opinion... you think the animation itself is better?.
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I haven't seen the same of China, Korea etc. If one of those countries makes the next Dragonball, I'll change my mind, but what I've seen has been crude, even by 1970s anime standards.
They need time. It took Japan like 30, 40 years to go from animated Edo art (how it looks) and generic American-esque stuff to what we call anime today (not that any of that stuff was bad, it was just all stuff everyone's seen before).

I don't know if every single Asian country with animators will become legends, but I'll bet South Korea will. They've already got stuff like "Aachi & Ssipak" and "Pororo" (which is 3d but still a nice movie). Once the won gets too strong and Americans (and Japanese if the yen decides to descend) stop exporting so much animation to there, I think their domestic animation industry will boom. They've already got a huge entertainment industry, so I'd predict that the industries would end up close together in a similar manner to how Japanese music and animation industries are so close.
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Old 2013-01-23, 15:54   Link #2726
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
They need time. It took Japan like 30, 40 years to go from animated Edo art (how it looks) and generic American-esque stuff to what we call anime today (not that any of that stuff was bad, it was just all stuff everyone's seen before).
I think the modern anime "industry" really started in the 60s, when Osamu Tezuka first started to make Anime working off how Disney did things. From there it wasn't long before they were making fairly good animation (like Kimba the White Lion in 1965), and by the 70s we have many of the standards that made Anime what it is (Space Battleship Yamato, Future Boy Conan...), so it wasn't long for Japan's anime industry to get going.

That said, what has probably kept Japanese anime going strong is really the Manga industry. No country has a comics industry of comparable size, and Anime can piggy back a lot of content off of that.
Quote:
I don't know if every single Asian country with animators will become legends, but I'll bet South Korea will. They've already got stuff like "Aachi & Ssipak" and "Pororo" (which is 3d but still a nice movie). Once the won gets too strong and Americans (and Japanese if the yen decides to descend) stop exporting so much animation to there, I think their domestic animation industry will boom. They've already got a huge entertainment industry, so I'd predict that the industries would end up close together in a similar manner to how Japanese music and animation industries are so close.
South Korea is the only one I think that has a chance of reaching Japan's "level" in the short term. It has the technical skills, and it has a fairly good Manhwa industry as well (though not as polished as Manga). The main weakness is that they haven't got the creative talent you see in the US or Japan, their movies and what not tend to be "fairly by the numbers". However, they're certainly ones to watch, and they can produce animation at the cost Japan can, and I don't think it's down to low Korean wages either.

The other weakness Korea has is that it doesn't have the robust "Otaku" market that Japan does. Their nerds are all playing Starcraft. And Korean fare mightn't go over well with Otaku, who often tend to towards being quite "nationalistic". So they're stuck trying to either sell to children, or the arthouse crowd, the former allows little creativity, the latter little money.

As for the rest they have a long way to go. China's the only one really, but their problem is the CCP. The only animation that would get approved is probably a retelling of the life of Mao (or wuxia of some kind).

One weakness that Korean and Chinese Manhwa/Animation have is that they're still a bit beholden to Japanese styles, and haven't done much that's very different. But who knows, maybe in the future...
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Old 2013-01-23, 17:38   Link #2727
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the modern anime "industry" really started in the 60s, when Osamu Tezuka first started to make Anime working off how Disney did things. From there it wasn't long before they were making fairly good animation (like Kimba the White Lion in 1965), and by the 70s we have many of the standards that made Anime what it is (Space Battleship Yamato, Future Boy Conan...), so it wasn't long for Japan's anime industry to get going.

That said, what has probably kept Japanese anime going strong is really the Manga industry. No country has a comics industry of comparable size, and Anime can piggy back a lot of content off of that.
South Korea is the only one I think that has a chance of reaching Japan's "level" in the short term. It has the technical skills, and it has a fairly good Manhwa industry as well (though not as polished as Manga). The main weakness is that they haven't got the creative talent you see in the US or Japan, their movies and what not tend to be "fairly by the numbers". However, they're certainly ones to watch, and they can produce animation at the cost Japan can, and I don't think it's down to low Korean wages either.

The other weakness Korea has is that it doesn't have the robust "Otaku" market that Japan does. Their nerds are all playing Starcraft. And Korean fare mightn't go over well with Otaku, who often tend to towards being quite "nationalistic". So they're stuck trying to either sell to children, or the arthouse crowd, the former allows little creativity, the latter little money.

As for the rest they have a long way to go. China's the only one really, but their problem is the CCP. The only animation that would get approved is probably a retelling of the life of Mao (or wuxia of some kind).

One weakness that Korean and Chinese Manhwa/Animation have is that they're still a bit beholden to Japanese styles, and haven't done much that's very different. But who knows, maybe in the future...
Thats right, the first Japanese cartoons were appearing in the 1910s and 1920s. I meant thirty years from then until Tezuka.

And yeah maybe in the future their styles will evolve more into something more "Korean" off of the Japanese and American styles (since that's what most of their animators are working on now, stuff for Americans and Japanese). South Korea is definitely climbing up in the world, and unlike China doesn't have a billion people to worry about (or all that censorship ).
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Old 2013-01-23, 20:35   Link #2728
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'm trying hard not to take offense at comments like this. Apparently sexism and racism are unacceptable notions, but not ageism?

At 63, I don't consider myself "outdated" at all. I'm more technologically savvy than 90%+ of Americans, and I pay close attention to political and social trends on a daily basis. I even watch anime, for goodness sake.

I suppose when I was in my twenties I might have had thoughts similar to yours, though at the time I had academic colleagues in their fifties and sixties who were still sharp-minded and intriguing. I do have some negative opinions about modern culture, particularly its emphasis on greed and violence, but those opinions are not a result of my age so much as my experience. The world of contemporary popular culture, particularly the culture that is expressed in mainstream Hollywood movies, is a narrow and impoverished one indeed.
But the problem is for Japan that maintaining that level of respect for the elders so highly is one big reason, whether we like it or not, behind Japan's stagnation at several levels and we know stagnation is a very very bad thing for any country.

I'm just saying that going at such extreme of the spectrum is not very helpful for Japan. As long as no one stands up to say F.U. to the old farts who are taking down any country with them instead of accepting more forms of change, I can only see a not-so-good prospect about a future for this country.

In any discipline, the only way to move forward is to cut short anyone or anything living on borrowed time. It might not apply to you specifically, but this applies to a number of other people who are taking away the spotlight from the ones who'd come up with new ideas adapted to the current reality.
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Old 2013-01-23, 22:13   Link #2729
Vexx
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It isn't quite so much their age as it is their extreme Luddite behavior.
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Old 2013-01-23, 22:27   Link #2730
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
But the problem is for Japan that maintaining that level of respect for the elders so highly is one big reason, whether we like it or not, behind Japan's stagnation at several levels and we know stagnation is a very very bad thing for any country.
Eh, I'm not convinced. If there's a problem it's cronyism at the top and dysfunctional politics, but that's not "too much respect for the elders", it's just plain corruption,
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In any discipline, the only way to move forward is to cut short anyone or anything living on borrowed time. It might not apply to you specifically, but this applies to a number of other people who are taking away the spotlight from the ones who'd come up with new ideas adapted to the current reality.
Well, you could argue we're all living on borrowed time.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:59   Link #2731
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Thats right, the first Japanese cartoons were appearing in the 1910s and 1920s. I meant thirty years from then until Tezuka.

And yeah maybe in the future their styles will evolve more into something more "Korean" off of the Japanese and American styles (since that's what most of their animators are working on now, stuff for Americans and Japanese). South Korea is definitely climbing up in the world, and unlike China doesn't have a billion people to worry about (or all that censorship ).
That got me thinking about Japanese animation 'before' anime. Found some gems on youtube.

Kobu tori from 1929:


and a nice little propaganda piece from WWII, Momotaro's Warriors of the Sea, coming equipped with persuasive (to children) woodland creatures espousing the advantages of the suicide pilots :
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Old 2013-01-24, 22:18   Link #2732
Vexx
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The earliest glimpse of a future rock drummer grrl, Japanese style.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:48   Link #2733
SaintessHeart
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She is using her elbows and shoulders too much. Swinging that too hard and you will start enjoying muscle tear - she should start by training her wrist, then if she wants to increase the rhythm, then put in the elbows to subdivide it, then if there is more increment, use the shoulders. It should be an entirely fluid motion that results in a consistent rhythm. And she is holding the mallets too inward that results in her needing to exert more strength.

NSFW Sankaku : Emiri Kato “So Cute She Was Mistaken for a JS (joshi shougakusei, or elementary schoolgirl)”

Are Japanese, or rather Asian girls, naturally lolicious like that?

P.S Before anyone makes a connection about a certain character she voiced, no, I am not talking about traps. Neither am I into them. Aohige and Sume-nee are though.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:56   Link #2734
Vexx
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Good lord, man, she's what .. four or five? I was just watching the little drummer's face and the intensity - the spirit and rawr. The proper skills will develop if they give her access to training.

And you gotta wonder about that 50-something shop keeper's clue-meter. Even I can tell Kato is older than an elementary schooler though she'll probably be carded for the next 30 years. And wait, aren't you in Singapore? Aren't Singapore women young looking? Maybe you just catch the clues better
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:59   Link #2735
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I think the person who mistook her for a loli is actually a pedophile....
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:09   Link #2736
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Good lord, man, she's what .. four or five? I was just watching the little drummer's face and the intensity - the spirit and rawr. The proper skills will develop if they give her access to training.

And you gotta wonder about that 50-something shop keeper's clue-meter. Even I can tell Kato is older than an elementary schooler though she'll probably be carded for the next 30 years. And wait, aren't you in Singapore? Aren't Singapore women young looking? Maybe you just catch the clues better
*looks out the window....sees all the grizzlys walking around*

<_<

Wherever did you get that idea from....
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:10   Link #2737
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*looks out the window....sees all the grizzlys walking around*

<_<

Wherever did you get that idea from....
All asian girl is cute
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:16   Link #2738
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All asian girl is cute
And Asian guys says Western women are not..... I mean hot!
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:18   Link #2739
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
*looks out the window....sees all the grizzlys walking around*

<_<

Wherever did you get that idea from....
Who knows? Maybe you and I are just in the wrong places for the last 2 decades...>_>
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:58   Link #2740
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Well, considering that vast number of Sigaporeans are ethnic Chinese, I would expect them to look pretty young in general.
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