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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 18 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 43.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 23.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-24, 08:06   Link #141
mechalord
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Latent criminals = trouble makers:
non-conformists, revolutionaries, activists, people who question authority, high strung people, libertarians, ambitious people, greedy people.

People live in a police state where order hinges on a formula and a computer system.

Society for the benefit of the silent majority, geared towards maximizing productivity, and reducing conflict.

What to us would seem as normal people (latent criminals) are persecuted and associated with genuine sociopaths, psychopaths, murderers, mobsters, and the "criminally insane."

All it takes to become a latent criminal is to get caught getting too idealistic, angry at society. You can get there by getting too depressed, not even to the point of a nervous breakdown. A nervous breakdown gets you executed, even if you aren't going to harm anyone.
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Old 2013-01-24, 09:35   Link #142
Dengar
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^You're leaving out the part where they will eventually end up committing some kind of crime and the psycho pass is there to prevent that from happening.

Not everyone with a high CC gets executed either. Just when they're abnormally high. That doesn't happen all the time you know? Just because it happens every other episode doesn't mean it always happens.


The amount of asploded people is still in the single digits. Out of a population of millions, that's rather insignificant.
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Old 2013-01-24, 10:05   Link #143
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
^You're leaving out the part where they will eventually end up committing some kind of crime and the psycho pass is there to prevent that from happening.

Not everyone with a high CC gets executed either. Just when they're abnormally high. That doesn't happen all the time you know? Just because it happens every other episode doesn't mean it always happens.


The amount of asploded people is still in the single digits. Out of a population of millions, that's rather insignificant.
You think so? Remember...anyone in therapy that does not get out through Enforcer service or any other kind of government thing ends up executed eventually since the CCs only keep degenerating
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Old 2013-01-24, 11:06   Link #144
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Latent criminals = trouble makers:
non-conformists, revolutionaries, activists, people who question authority, high strung people, libertarians, ambitious people, greedy people.

People live in a police state where order hinges on a formula and a computer system.

Society for the benefit of the silent majority, geared towards maximizing productivity, and reducing conflict.

What to us would seem as normal people (latent criminals) are persecuted and associated with genuine sociopaths, psychopaths, murderers, mobsters, and the "criminally insane."

All it takes to become a latent criminal is to get caught getting too idealistic, angry at society. You can get there by getting too depressed, not even to the point of a nervous breakdown. A nervous breakdown gets you executed, even if you aren't going to harm anyone.
What you're writing here would fit wonderfully if not for one loud exception - Makishima.

Makishima is definitely a non-conformist and someone who questions authority. In some ways, you could also call him "ambitious". Yet he has a low Psycho-Pass reading.


I think that what the psycho-pass readings are measuring is emotional and "moral" strength. It measures how psychologically strong and firm in one's convictions a person is. Now, I should clarify what I mean by "psychologically strong". Kougami, for example, maintained impressive calm during the confrontation with the Cyborg Hunter. There's a certain toughness to Kougami's psyche, to be sure.

But by "emotional strength", I mean people that are not merely able to stay calm under intense danger and pressure, but people that are optimists at heart; people who's happiness can't be shaken for too long by even the most traumatizing of events.


But you are right to a degree - I get the sense that simple depression will raise your Psycho-Pass considerably, and an outright nervous breakdown will get you killed. There is a certain culling of various personality types going on here, slowly and steadily over time.
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Old 2013-01-25, 03:32   Link #145
mechalord
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What you're writing here would fit wonderfully if not for one loud exception - Makishima.

Makishima is definitely a non-conformist and someone who questions authority. In some ways, you could also call him "ambitious". Yet he has a low Psycho-Pass reading.


I think that what the psycho-pass readings are measuring is emotional and "moral" strength. It measures how psychologically strong and firm in one's convictions a person is. Now, I should clarify what I mean by "psychologically strong". Kougami, for example, maintained impressive calm during the confrontation with the Cyborg Hunter. There's a certain toughness to Kougami's psyche, to be sure.

But by "emotional strength", I mean people that are not merely able to stay calm under intense danger and pressure, but people that are optimists at heart; people who's happiness can't be shaken for too long by even the most traumatizing of events.


But you are right to a degree - I get the sense that simple depression will raise your Psycho-Pass considerably, and an outright nervous breakdown will get you killed. There is a certain culling of various personality types going on here, slowly and steadily over time.
That's what the story is all about... Makishima, the wild card. He's the trouble maker that the system can't ID.

What so different about guys like? It's probably that they think themselves superior and see people as inferior to them. He's a true sociopath/psychopath. He has no remorse, regret, empathy. He sees humans as animals, lab rats. This sort of detachment is what probably makes him unreadable.

Unlike Rina and the resistance movement breeding in the underground, Makishima doesn't seem to be rebelling against order or even fighting to free the world.

I'm not even sure Makishima is ambitious. He seems to play the observer for now and avoids the spotlight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
^You're leaving out the part where they will eventually end up committing some kind of crime and the psycho pass is there to prevent that from happening.

Not everyone with a high CC gets executed either. Just when they're abnormally high. That doesn't happen all the time you know? Just because it happens every other episode doesn't mean it always happens.


The amount of asploded people is still in the single digits. Out of a population of millions, that's rather insignificant.
Latent criminals aren't real criminals. Being a victim can push you to a breakdown. When that happens, the system doesn't care... you're committed. The system doesn't have any compassion, it only cares about risk management. Once you become a risk to social order, you get locked up.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:02   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Latent criminals aren't real criminals. Being a victim can push you to a breakdown. When that happens, the system doesn't care... you're committed. The system doesn't have any compassion, it only cares about risk management. Once you become a risk to social order, you get locked up.
I'm not sure if this is your intent, but that statement doesn't really contradict my argument. If anything, it strengthens it.
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Old 2013-01-25, 19:13   Link #147
mechalord
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I'm not sure if this is your intent, but that statement doesn't really contradict my argument. If anything, it strengthens it.
You said they'll eventually commit some sort of crime.

Actually, they don't commit crimes at all. The Sibyl system just deems them dangerous and they get committed.

Latent criminals are called latent criminals because they haven't committed any crimes yet. They're "potential" criminals... not actual ones.

My guess is that most will never ever commit a crime, would have never committed a violent crime. The Sibyl system doesn't care... it's in place to reduce risk, maximize order.
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Old 2013-01-25, 19:40   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Latent criminals aren't real criminals. Being a victim can push you to a breakdown. When that happens, the system doesn't care... you're committed. The system doesn't have any compassion, it only cares about risk management. Once you become a risk to social order, you get locked up.
Very nicely and succinctly put.

And this is one of the core reasons why the Sibyl system itself is wrong, imo.
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Old 2013-01-25, 21:21   Link #149
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
You said they'll eventually commit some sort of crime.

Actually, they don't commit crimes at all. The Sibyl system just deems them dangerous and they get committed.

Latent criminals are called latent criminals because they haven't committed any crimes yet. They're "potential" criminals... not actual ones.

My guess is that most will never ever commit a crime, would have never committed a violent crime. The Sibyl system doesn't care... it's in place to reduce risk, maximize order.
They don't commit crimes because they are captured and treated before they degrade into criminal behavior.

You have no way of saying the captured people will never commit a crime. Well, they probably never will, since they will either be locked up or treated.
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Old 2013-01-27, 13:32   Link #150
ThereminVox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Latent criminals aren't real criminals. Being a victim can push you to a breakdown. When that happens, the system doesn't care... you're committed. The system doesn't have any compassion, it only cares about risk management. Once you become a risk to social order, you get locked up.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Very nicely and succinctly put.

And this is one of the core reasons why the Sibyl system itself is wrong, imo.
At the risk of sounding dismissive or cynical, is that really so different from any law enforcement system? Isn't it mostly a question of degree? Risk management is all that any immutable system is capable of, until an element of human input is incorporated. Laws against theft don't take into account how impoverished an offender might be, and violent actors can't use a broken home life to excuse themselves. Being a victim is often the first step on the road to being an offender, and legal systems mitigate the damage this can cause society through various kinds of hedging and risk management, frequently including incarceration.

How likely a criminal is to re-offend is often taken into account in decisions regarding incarceration. The psycho-pass quantifies this likelihood of such violations ahead of the first offense. Is that worse? In a sense, perhaps, but it seems to me either way you're making decisions about a person's fate based on your best available guess of what might happen in the future. Sybil is only troubling because no such technology exists, and if it did, we would (rightfully) mistrust its lofty claims of infallibility.

Am I completely nuts, here? It seems to me that Sibyl is monstrous to us because it takes what already exists and drives it a step further away from the stabilizing influence of human compassion by adding an additional layer of automation, not because it creates a completely alien social structure. The automation, the presumption of guilt is what we find revolting, as well we should.
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Old 2013-01-27, 14:17   Link #151
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Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
At the risk of sounding dismissive or cynical, is that really so different from any law enforcement system?
Presumption of innocence is an absolutely core element of the law enforcement system of our country (Canada). I can't speak that much to other countries, but I'm pretty sure it's the same way in the U.S. I'm also not aware of any significant deviation from this in either Europe or Australia or Japan. So presumption of innocence seems to be a core element of the law enforcement systems of most modern 1st world nations.

The Sibyl system does away with that because it's not even determining innocence or guilt in any one particular case. What it's doing is essentially playing the odds. One could be completely innocent of ever committing a serious offense, and still get locked up on mere potentiality alone. That is rather different from any law enforcement system that I'm personally familiar with.


Quote:
Laws against theft don't take into account how impoverished an offender might be, and violent actors can't use a broken home life to excuse themselves.
Of course laws don't. If they did, you'd be giving carte blanche to the impoverished or "people from broken homes" to commit crimes just because they're impoverished or "people from broken homes". For laws to have any real value, people must be equal before them. Personal factors can (and should) factor into sentencing, but it shouldn't factor into determining innocence or guilt. Either somebody committed a crime or they didn't.

If a person steals my wallet, the impact on me is the same regardless if that thief is a poor beggar from a broken home or a wealthy man. Either way, I'm out a wallet, and all the contents in it. Either way, I've been robbed and I've been wronged. And it's important for society to provide deterrence against such criminal behavior, and that's where fines and jail sentences come into play.


Quote:
How likely a criminal is to re-offend is often taken into account in decisions regarding incarceration. The psycho-pass quantifies this likelihood of such violations ahead of the first offense. Is that worse? In a sense, perhaps, but it seems to me either way you're making decisions about a person's fate based on your best available guess of what might happen in the future.
The difference is with a criminal in the real world, we already know he's capable of committing a crime because he's done it once already (presumably, at least; this is the case if he actually is guilty and wasn't wrongfully convicted). So the key is (amongst other things) the criminal demonstrating remorse over his criminal act, and also demonstrating a commitment to not do anything like it again. And that is something that we can try to ascertain over time.

With a criminal in the world of Sybil, he may have committed no crime at all, so there might be nothing for him/her to feel remorse over. In fact, that raises a tough question, in my mind: How do you rehabilitate a criminal who's not actually a criminal? What exactly do you rehabilitated him/her to?
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Old 2013-01-27, 14:54   Link #152
ThereminVox
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The Sibyl system does away with that because it's not even determining innocence or guilt in any one particular case. What it's doing is essentially playing the odds. One could be completely innocent of ever committing a serious offense, and still get locked up on mere potentiality alone. That is rather different from any law enforcement system that I'm personally familiar with.
I think we actually agree in that case. I bring up real world comparisons because from my perspective, there is precedent specifically for the sort of hedging that Sibyl does, not because I see Sibyl as an analog to an existing criminal justice system. I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The difference is with a criminal in the real world, we already know he's capable of committing a crime because he's done it once already (presumably, at least; this is the case if he actually is guilty and wasn't wrongfully convicted). So the key is (amongst other things) the criminal demonstrating remorse over his criminal act, and also demonstrating a commitment to not do anything like it again. And that is something that we can try to ascertain over time.
Sibyl claims to be able to objectively measure the sincerity of this commitment to good behavior. I think that sounds like bullshit, but most of the cast of Psycho-Pass -- no doubt re-assured by some very official looking people in very clean labcoats -- disagree with me. At least at the start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
With a criminal in the world of Sybil, he may have committed no crime at all, so there might be nothing for him/her to feel remorse over. In fact, that raises a tough question, in my mind: How do you rehabilitate a criminal who's not actually a criminal. What exactly do you rehabilitated him/her to?
Yup. That's where it gets tricky. Unless, of course, rehabilitation is no longer the purpose of your system. Which goes back to the part of mechalord's post which i actually agree with without reservation: That expedience and risk management have become the only concern of the world of Sibyl. I just wanted to draw a few parallels (again, not analogs) to the way we expedite justice in the modern world, to show how something as clean and expedient as the psycho-pass might be an irresistible temptation for a society if it loses interest in lifting all boats (rehabilitation) and instead decides that it would prefer to cut loose any parts of itself that it believes aren't worth the effort.
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