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Old 2013-01-20, 11:20   Link #201
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So you mean Naruto is for idiots just because it's a manga? When you say "low self-esteem" does that imply that i should look down upon people who read the manga, since they must be either children or stupid people? Reading your recent posts where you pointed out many things that you think are wrong with this manga and how stupid many things are in it and now reading the beginning of this post, it seems to me that you think that this manga is simply stupid but since you say i'm wrong that means that both you as a smart guy and also random idiots can enjoy reading it. I agree that both a smart and stupid person can enjoy a manga like this. But i can't agree on saying that this is a stupid manga/story and that this manga has a similar role in our world as Jiraiya's book has in the narutoverse.
It's fascinating, you're arguing against yourself and you don't even realize it. You made the claim that for someone to understand a book that a smart person liked he had to be smart himself because and I quote "if a book is too dumbed down a smart guy [...] would not like it". Naruto is a comics targeting the 10-12 years old, I'm not saying you can't find it entertaining if you're not part of the target population -in fact I said just the opposite- I'm pointing out that if you believed in your own argument then you'd either think yourself stupid or you'd be a 10 years old or you actually believe Naruto's plot isn't dumbed down and, well, let's just say that it'd also prove that a book can be appreciated by all sort of people.
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It's almost as if that book was the bible of the narutoverse
...Okay then. You should give up trying to make me give up, Deuteronomy style. Deep words to go by along with "if there is such thing as peace I'll find it! I won't give up!" Scholars will need centuries to decipher those parables of Jiraiya.
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It's simple: Naruto outsmarted Kakuzu. Of course it doesn't prove that Naruto's smart, he isn't. But what it proves - also considering all the other instances where he outsmarts people like Nagato or Zabuza - that he is not a complete idiot as you describe him.
I've already told you that many times but you shouldn't truncate a quotation until it has lost all meaning. The sentence you quoted was answering your "point" that Kakazu was the smartest guy of an Akatsuki duo, ie Kakazu was smarter than Hidan which as I pointed out wasn't that much of an accomplishment.
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That was the first time he put his faith in Naruto, i didn't refer to that.
It was the only one that matters, he gambled his life on it. And regardless neither him nor the people you listed put their faith in Naruto because of his brain.
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What i mean is that if Naruto were so incredibly dumb as you described and there was nothing more to it then any sane person would realize that he can't succeed in the mission he was given, and that mission is to find the solution to a problem that not even Minato and Jiraiya could solve. So assuming Minato was not insane when he told to Naruto that he has faith in him we simply can't think of Naruto as being the stupidest guy in the story.
This is an entirely baseless claim. As I said Minato thought that Naruto would be the One when he was one hour old. This has nothing to do with being dumb or smart or blonde for that matter. It was blind faith because Naruto was his son, period. And the others follow Naruto because he has the amazing knack of making everybody his friend, not because he has a plan to make the world go round.

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And again it seems as if you lived in a binary world: just because i say Naruto is not a complete idiot it doesn't mean that i imply that he is smart, there's a complete world betwen the two extremes.
No, what you say is that Naruto is both intellectually brilliant and dumb depending of the author's whim whereas I claim that while he can be cunning at using KB at time he has certainly never been intellectually brilliant whereas he's consistently quite the opposite.

Anyway I don't think we've brought anything new in this discussion for a while now, we're just repeating the same thing over and over at this point so this was my last post on the subject.
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Old 2013-01-24, 16:07   Link #202
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
It's fascinating, you're arguing against yourself and you don't even realize it. You made the claim that for someone to understand a book that a smart person liked he had to be smart himself because and I quote "if a book is too dumbed down a smart guy [...] would not like it". Naruto is a comics targeting the 10-12 years old, I'm not saying you can't find it entertaining if you're not part of the target population -in fact I said just the opposite- I'm pointing out that if you believed in your own argument then you'd either think yourself stupid or you'd be a 10 years old or you actually believe Naruto's plot isn't dumbed down and, well, let's just say that it'd also prove that a book can be appreciated by all sort of people.
You might not believe it but i think it's "not dumbed down", or lets just say that it's not a Pokemon. Sure it's a simple story with simple characters, but it's far from being dumb. And also your argument was that Naruto was the dumbest person in the manga, and then you going by my reasoning said that me and a 12 year old enjoying this manga is the same as Naruto and the 4th hokage understanding the same book, which also implied that Jiraiya's book has the same role in the Narutoverse as this shonen manga in the real world. That's simply not true. But the funny thing is that in my post that you 1st replied to i end that part with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Of course in this case we could say that Jiraiya did a very good job in making a book that both stupid and smart like, so this wasn't really the best example.
And if i have to explain this, it really means what you also stated later, that a book or manga can be enjoyed by both 12 year old children and adults, and i didn't add that i think this manga is also such a work, but i thought it would be obvious. BTW i think 12 year old children are smarter than you think

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
...Okay then. You should give up trying to make me give up, Deuteronomy style. Deep words to go by along with "if there is such thing as peace I'll find it! I won't give up!" Scholars will need centuries to decipher those parables of Jiraiya.
It's simple, isn't it. My argument was that the all the characters are "simple", or if we want to be rude they are "dumb", so in the Narutoverse such a book should be considered good and smart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
This is an entirely baseless claim. As I said Minato thought that Naruto would be the One when he was one hour old.
So the Minato that was sealed inside Naruto is incapable of remembering how stupid Naruto acts contiuously and just fails to think about how stupid his son is? Or he lies to his son, that's ok, but then at least the author should have given half a sentence or a funny face from Minato before he told Naruto again that he has faith in him. Of course this is a subjective thing, but i think the author should have at least added one panel of comedic relief where Minato wonders how can his son be so stupid and if he did make a mistake to trust him (Kishimoto often does these short comedic relief moments, last time with Shikaku telling about his secret box before he died), but he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
No, what you say is that Naruto is both intellectually brilliant and dumb depending of the author's whim whereas I claim that while he can be cunning at using KB at time he has certainly never been intellectually brilliant whereas he's consistently quite the opposite.
It seems you disregard the moment where he comes up with the plan to beat the old raikage, or when he digs a hole against Neji. I don't remember calling him "intellectually brilliant", rather i said that in certain situations he was quite smart to take an unexpected action to catch off guard people like Kakuzu who even fought the 1st hokage by which the author stated how experienced that guy was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Anyway I don't think we've brought anything new in this discussion for a while now, we're just repeating the same thing over and over at this point so this was my last post on the subject.
Well at least we can agree that we can't agree
Our perception of Naruto's intelligence as meant by the author is a rather subjective matter.
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