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Old 2013-01-25, 00:58   Link #5641
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, let's see, one of those ideals is that Orb will not let another nation to invade it. Athha just did that when he sent what fighting power he had to space.

So based on this event, the show doesn't consider this as similar to USA abandoning democracy. Leaving your nation defenseless is surrendering it to a foreign nation.
Things remains, Uzumi and ORB's higher-ups who are loyal to their ideals never surrendered their nation until their deaths. What's left are those officials who would kiss the Federation's ass just to survive and ordered their military forces to surrender. The rest of the military forces could only do what's ordered (I guess that's how people like Captain Todaka still managed to live). Cagalli herself and the crew of Kusanagi wanted to fight, but Uzumi himself applied the "live today to fight tomorrow" rule on them. It's called strategic retreat imo. ORB would never be conquered entirely as long as Cagalli and the people aboard the Kusanagi live.
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:12   Link #5642
monster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Things remains, Uzumi and ORB's higher-ups who are loyal to their ideals never surrendered their nation until their deaths. What's left are those officials who would kiss the Federation's ass just to survive and ordered their military forces to surrender. The rest of the military forces could only do what's ordered (I guess that's how people like Captain Todaka still managed to live). Cagalli herself and the crew of Kusanagi wanted to fight, but Uzumi himself applied the "live today to fight tomorrow" rule on them. It's called strategic retreat imo. ORB would never be conquered entirely as long as Cagalli and the people aboard the Kusanagi live.
Please tell me you're joking. It doesn't matter what Uzumi or Cagalli or the Kusanagi does or wants to do.

If the ideal says that Orb would not let another nation invade it, and another nation invades it after a significant portion of Orb's military powers fled the nation on the order of the Representative of Orb, then that ideal no longer holds true.

And if you insists that Orb's ideal is the same as democracy in the USA, then this would be similar to the US President ordering a ban on democracy, which would be ridiculous.

The only logical interpretation of this event is that, while it is an ideal, it is not fundamental to Orb as a nation and can change.
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:34   Link #5643
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Please tell me you're joking. It doesn't matter what Uzumi or Cagalli or the Kusanagi does or wants to do.

If the ideal says that Orb would not let another nation invade it, and another nation invades it after a significant portion of Orb's military powers fled the nation on the order of the Representative of Orb, then that ideal no longer holds true.

The only logical interpretation of this event is that, while it is an ideal, it is not fundamental to Orb as a nation and can change.
Why would I joke?

The problem is, ORBís ideal arenít hold by many ORB officials themselves. I bet they got too scared to fight for it after enjoying a long period of peace/stability, and in Destiny, they got scared due to the trauma of the Federationís invasion which they unfairly blame it on Uzumi. So, yes, it is fundamental, but many ORB's people got chicken-out to hold it and dropped it.

That said, Uzumi were practically left alone with only few people genuinely willing to fight with him. What do you suggest he can do? Like I said, he already fought the battle his own way by incinerating important facilities and letting Kusanagi and ORBís ďheirĒ to escape to someday rebuild ORB again.

Oh, and how do you know that one ship like Kusanagi is significant compared to the entirety of ORB's military?

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And if you insists that Orb's ideal is the same as democracy in the USA, then this would be similar to the US President ordering a ban on democracy, which would be ridiculous.
Yes, it is ridiculous. That's my point. ORB abandoning their ideals after so many had died for it is ridiculous to me. Plus, their ideals is not a bad thing in the first place. The people of ORB just have to man-up and be ready to fight for it if necessary.
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:42   Link #5644
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The problem is, ORB’s ideal aren’t hold by many ORB officials themselves. ... ORB's people themselves got chicken-out to hold it and dropped it.
In other words, it's not fundamental.
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Oh, and how do you know that one ship like Kusanagi is significant compared to the entirety of ORB's military?
It holds Orb's mobile suit squad(s).
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:50   Link #5645
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In other words, it's not fundamental.
Yes it is. ORB’s neutrality and its insistence on neutrality has been the soul of that country for a long time. Those poeple who got scared only want to keep the good things and afraid to fight when things got bad.

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It holds Orb's mobile suit squad(s).
And? How’s that significant compared to many Astrays squads and battleships battling Federation’s MSs out there during the invasion ?
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:01   Link #5646
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Yes it is. ORB’s neutrality and its insistence on neutrality has been the soul of that country for a long time. Those poeple who got scared only want to keep the good things and afraid to fight when things got bad.
You don't take away something that is the "soul" of your country without causing problem of the revolution or civil war type. No such thing occurred in either SEED or Destiny, hence it is not as important as you make it out to be.

Note that I'm not saying that it's not important. Foreign policies are important, but not as fundamentally important as democracy is to a country like the USA.
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And? How’s that significant compared to many Astrays squads and battleships battling Federation’s MSs out there during the invasion ?
It's significant because the AF has mobile suits and more of them than Orb. Reducing your military strength is almost never a good idea unless there's a strategy behind it.

There's also the Archangel, which holds Freedom, Justice, and Buster, two of which were recognized by the AF as being major factors in why they weren't able to take the mass driver.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:14   Link #5647
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You don't take away something that is the "soul" of your country without causing problem of the revolution or civil war type. No such thing occurred in either SEED or Destiny, hence it is not as important as you make it out to be.
That's why I said this series has bad writing since many things didn't work out like it's supposed to be. If you said the writing (for the political issue) is good enough, then that'll be the end of our discussion.

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It's significant because the AF has mobile suits and more of them than Orb. Reducing your military strength is almost never a good idea unless there's a strategy behind it.

There's also the Archangel, which holds Freedom, Justice, and Buster, two of which were recognized by the AF as being major factors in why they weren't able to take the mass driver.
The Astrays are already mass produced and ORB has many of them, but they simply not enough to win the battle. Compared to that, Kusanagi only have a bunch of those Astrays when they launched. Not significant enough to me.

I didn't mention Archangel faction simply because you can't count them as a part of ORB's military forces. They're a rogue/independent faction.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:19   Link #5648
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That's why I said this series has bad writing since many things didn't work out like it's supposed to be.
Or you're just not accepting the fact that your interpretation of Orb's ideals is false.
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The Astrays are already mass produced and ORB has many of them, but they simply not enough to win the battle. Compared to that, Kusanagi only have a bunch of those Astrays when they launched. Not significant enough to me.

I didn't mention Archangel faction simply because you can't count them as a part of ORB's military forces. They're a rogue/independent faction.
The Archangel, Freedom, and Justice are military powers that Athha could and did use to protect Orb, so I don't see any problem in counting them.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:26   Link #5649
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Or you're just not accepting the fact that your interpretation of Orb's ideals is false.
Or I'm simply right.

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The Archangel, Freedom, and Justice is military power that Athha could and did use to protect Orb. So I don't see any problem in counting them.
I always think that it's not commendable to use others to sacrifice themselves for the sake of your own country. I guess Uzumi is that type of man too.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:28   Link #5650
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Or I'm simply right.
The show proves you wrong.
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I always think that it's not commendable to use others to sacrifice for the sake of your own country. I guess Uzumi is that type of man too.
Athha gave them a choice. They chose to fight with Orb.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:34   Link #5651
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The show proves you wrong.
No, it didn't. I already posted my reasons for that. Not gonna repeat it again.

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Athha gave them a choice. They chose to fight with Orb.
Like I said, Uzumi is that kind of man. Even more after seeing that the pilots of Justice and Buster are just a couple of confused youngsters who basically don't know what they should do. Plus, both Archangel and Kusanagi are spaceships which aren't that effective in atmosphere.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:41   Link #5652
monster
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No, it didn't. I already posted my reasons for that. Not gonna repeat it again.
Alright, you don't have to repeat it. Just give me a link to the post where you gave your reasons showing how the show supports your interpretation of Orb's ideals.

Or you can quote the post.
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Like I said, Uzumi is that kind of man. Even more after seeing that the pilots of Justice and Buster are just a couple of confused youngsters who basically don't know what they should do.
They know enough to want to help Orb fight against the AF.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:52   Link #5653
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Alright, you don't have to repeat it. Just give me a link to the post where you gave your reasons showing how the show supports your interpretation of Orb's ideals.
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Things remains, Uzumi (the head of the nation himself) and ORB's higher-ups who are loyal to their ideals never surrendered their nation until their deaths.
And how Uzumi has stated many times during conversation with characters and hearings/conference that the neutrality has been ORBís way of life since long ago. I know it sounds too one sided, but it canít be helped since, in SEED, Uzumi is almost the only source of info we got to look deeper into how ORBís government works. So, we are supposed to take anything he said regarding ORB without any doubt, which circle back to my point that the writing in this series is lacking.

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They know enough to want to help Orb fight against the AF.
Uzumi simply know better .
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Old 2013-01-25, 03:11   Link #5654
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Things remains, Uzumi (the head of the nation himself) and ORB's higher-ups who are loyal to their ideals never surrendered their nation until their deaths.
Except they caused their own deaths. If these ideals were that important, they would've remained alive and fight until the bitter end. Instead, they simply destroyed what the AF wanted and let the country be taken over.
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And how Uzumi has stated many times during conversation with characters and hearings/conference that the neutrality has been ORBís way of life since long ago. I know it sounds too one sided, but it canít be helped since, in SEED, Uzumi is almost the only source of info we got to look deeper into how ORBís government works. So, we are supposed to take anything he said regarding ORB without any doubt, which circle back to my point that the writing in this series is lacking.
Alright, look, I'm not saying that Orb's ideals aren't important. They are important and they may have existed for a long time. But that is still a far cry from them being as fundamental to Orb as democracy is to the USA.

As for information, the lack of civil war or uprising in Orb after these ideals have been blatantly disregarded by Athha and Seiran and other ruling families is that information that tells us that these 3 ideals are not that important. By comparison, a US president wouldn't have been able to stop democracy in the USA so easily.
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Uzumi simply know better .
By sending these same kids to space to deal with the problems even he couldn't fix? I don't think so.
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Old 2013-01-25, 03:41   Link #5655
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Except they caused their own deaths. If these ideals were that important, they would've remained alive and fight until the bitter end. Instead, they simply destroyed what the AF wanted and let the country be taken over.
They know theyíre losing, and fighting with bare hands and died wil result in nothing. So, they took the quickest method to be destroyed along with the facilities. I think theyíre better dead than live only to be manipulated (with whatever methods) to sign some shady treaty involving using/giving their advanced tech for Federation. And guess what? It works! the EA/AF canít use ORBís technology after that great battle until the end of the series. Their suicide is also a form of retaliation-to-the-end which doesnít violate their neutrality ideals. Itís not perfect, but they did what they could to fulfill the ideals.

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As for information, the lack of civil war or uprising in Orb after these ideals have been blatantly disregarded by Athha and Seiran and other ruling families is that information that tells us that these 3 ideals are not that important. By comparison, a US president wouldn't have been able to stop democracy in the USA so easily.
Yeah, who knows? That point has never been properly mentioned in the series. IMO If you lay your argument by the absence of certain plot-point, it can also prove that the writing isnít that good.

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By sending these same kids to space to deal with the problems even he couldn't fix? I don't think so.
No. He sent those kids to survive first and foremost. Yes, he had hope for them, but survival always the primary goal. Thereís nothing wrong with granting youngsters and his own daughter more time to live.
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:26   Link #5656
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They know they’re losing, and fighting with bare hands and died wil result in nothing. So, they took the quickest method to be destroyed along with the facilities. I think they’re better dead than live only to be manipulated (with whatever methods) to sign some shady treaty involving using/giving their advanced tech for Federation. And guess what? It works! the EA/AF can’t use ORB’s technology after that great battle until the end of the series. Their suicide is also a form of retaliation-to-the-end which doesn’t violate their neutrality ideals. It’s not perfect, but they did what they could to fulfill the ideals.
Except they could've destroyed the mass driver and Morgenroete without killing themselves, which would've achieved the same thing, only better, since they would still be alive to continue the fight. That would be a retaliation to the end, not sending a portion of your troops away.
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Yeah, who knows? That point has never been properly mentioned in the series. IMO If you lay your argument by the absence of certain plot-point, it can also prove that the writing isn’t that good.
The plot-point is that Orb joining the Alliance was not a big enough issue to cause an uprising from the people.
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No. He sent those kids to survive first and foremost. Yes, he had hope for them, but survival always the primary goal. There’s nothing wrong with granting youngsters and his own daughter more time to live.
Oh, so now survival is the primary goal. Well, guess what? Orb joined the Alliance in the hopes that this will ensure its survival.
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:54   Link #5657
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Except they could've destroyed the mass driver and Morgenroete without killing themselves, which would've achieved the same thing, only better, since they would still be alive to continue the fight.

That would be a retaliation to the end, not sending a portion of your troops away.
They know they’re losing. If they continue to retaliate further, they risk of being captured and manipulated (drugged or something) to sign some shady deals which will only violate their ideals more.

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The plot-point is that Orb joining the Alliance was not a big enough issue to cause an uprising from the people.
The thing which aren't properly addressed is the people of ORB's reaction to their government abandoning their ideals.

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Oh, so now survival is the primary goal. Well, guess what? Orb joined the Alliance in the hopes that this will ensure its survival.
How can you confuse the context like that? Those people on Archangel are mainly from different countries, and those come from ORB are mostly kids. Uzumi most likely feel the need to let those foreigners and kids survive instead of sacrificing themselves in a losing war for ORB. The adults of ORB who knows what they're doing stays behind and continue to fight.
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:12   Link #5658
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They know they’re losing. If they continue to retaliate further, they risk of being captured and manipulated (drugged or something) to sign some shady deals which will only violate their ideals more.
What are you talking about? If Orb was defeated, the AF wouldn't need to manipulate anybody. They would already be in control of the nation.
Quote:
The thing which aren't properly addressed is the people of ORB's reaction to their government abandoning their ideals.
It was properly addressed. If you think Orb's ideals is as important as democracy is to the USA, there would be an uprising/civil war going on if those ideals are abandoned. There wasn't, so obviously these ideals weren't that important.

Also, judging by the people when Cagalli and Yuuna were about to get married, they clearly had no big problems with the government.
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How can you confuse the context like that?
I'm not. If survival is important, then that applies to everyone.
Quote:
Those people on Archangel are mainly from different countries, and those come from ORB are mostly kids. Uzumi most likely feel the need to let those foreigners and kids survive instead of sacrificing themselves in a losing war for ORB. The adults of ORB who knows what they're doing stays behind and continue to fight.
They're soldiers. They already signed up to fight. Also, the Kusanagi consists of mostly Orb adults.

In comparison, you're asking Orb to fight the Alliance in Destiny and risking the lives of all its citizens, even civilians, when the AF attacks Orb.
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:52   Link #5659
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What are you talking about? If Orb was defeated, the AF wouldn't need to manipulate anybody. They would already be in control of the nation.
With the leaders of the nation sacrificing themselves, they want to sent message to the world that they fought the opression of the Federation to the very end (Uzumi even talked about it in those episodes IIRC). If they got captured alive and forced to sign some take-over deals with their names (which the Federation will undoubtedly force them to) it wouldnít make as strong a message. That's how they fight.

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It was properly addressed. If you think Orb's ideals is as important as democracy is to the USA, there would be an uprising/civil war going on if those ideals are abandoned. There wasn't, so obviously these ideals weren't that important.

Also, judging by the people when Cagalli and Yuuna were about to get married, they clearly had no big problems with the government.
My memory of Destiny is a bit hazy, so would you be so kind to give me evidence that the show properly addressed peopleís opinion by the time ORB signing that deal with the Federation? By ďproperly addressedĒ I mean: directly highlighting on peopleís opinion about that deal, not reflecting on peopleís reaction over a completely different issue like Royal Marriage.

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I'm not. If survival is important, then that applies to everyone. They're soldiers. They already signed up to fight. Also, the Kusanagi consists of mostly Orb adults.
Once again, my opinion said:
In Archangelís case, Uzumi most likely didnít wanít to involve the foreigners and the kids further due to his personal feelings of "what's right", not by what they said.

In Kusanagiís case, Uzumi know heíll lose, thus, instead of leaving the spaceship to be pillaged by Federation or to use it ineffectively in the atmosphere battle, he sent it to space with enough squad to do some more useful things, while at the same time throwing Cagalli, the ďheir of ORBĒ (which was still a kid at that point), inside it to survive to rebuild ORB again someday. That's his hope.

Thatís my take on it. If you donít agree, just say so.

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In comparison, you're asking Orb to fight the Alliance in Destiny and risking the lives of all its citizens, even civilians, when the AF attacks Orb.
If they could evacuate most of the citizens before the previous battle happened, what would stop them doing the same?

On the other hand, if your nation was to be invaded by another jerk-ass nation, is it so wrong to ask for the resourceful citizens to fight for their beloved country alongside the governments military?
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:53   Link #5660
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Well, let's see, one of those ideals is that Orb will not let another nation to invade it. Athha just did that when he sent what fighting power he had to space.

So based on this event, the show doesn't consider this as similar to USA abandoning democracy. Leaving your nation defenseless is surrendering it to a foreign nation.
I think the ideal of every nation is to not let another nation invade it....

That particular "ideal" was more of a general rule to maintain the larger ideal which is neutrality.
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