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Old 2013-01-20, 00:50   Link #621
MrTerrorist
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I don't think Megatron would help the BETA. To me he might make humanity his slaves due to their intelligence and considering the BETA are mindless drones and some of his minions aren't that bright.

This might lead to an Enemy Mine with him and Optimus (Megatron wants smart, productive slaves, Optimus wants to save humanity.)
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Old 2013-01-20, 01:08   Link #622
wavehawk
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Originally Posted by sasahar17 View Post
How about making Unicron the creator and having Megs reprogram them to do his bidding?
- Megatron? No.

...Starscream, on the other hand...

Quote:
Ah well, either way, someone has to bring the BETA to the Autobot's attention. This is not the kind of thing Optimus will ignore, even when he has his own war to fight.
"This ends here. It doesn't matter if it's a large planet or smll, great or less. This blue planet, this...earth. Autobots---we stop them HERE."

Quote:
I don't really see Prime as a Gunsweeper. He's a monster in close combat with that axe/sword (depends on the version of Prime we're talking about) and always has been the type to lead at the front. Probably Storm Vanguard.
- Possibly. And it kind of reflects his leadership style. But it'd be fun to see why Humanity's setup with the TSFs is working---they may reflect existing Cybertronian combat doctrine.

Quote:
More importantly, how will humans react when they meet the Autobots? How will the Autobots approach humanity for that matter? With mankind's, very justified, shoot all alien life first ask questions later mentality after thirty years of war, I can't imagine a very smooth first contact if the Autobots handle this carelessly.
- (Looks at Takeru) And that's where YOU come in...

...not to mention, it'll expalin why they're "Robots in Disguise" on Earth...
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Old 2013-01-20, 01:30   Link #623
Dragonkid11
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Originally Posted by sasahar17 View Post
More importantly, how will humans react when they meet the Autobots? How will the Autobots approach humanity for that matter? With mankind's, very justified, shoot all alien life first ask questions later mentality after thirty years of war, I can't imagine a very smooth first contact if the Autobots handle this carelessly.
In fact,I can't imagine the first contact of humanity in Muvluv with just about EVERYTHING would be smooth at all.

Even if the "Extraterrestrial Being"is a human(from crossover-verse),I still doubt UN wouldn't let him go without asking him A TONS OF QUESTIONS,And even then I doubt they would let him go either.
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Old 2013-01-20, 07:49   Link #624
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If we are talking about a close combat prime won't the 2007 movieverse Prime be the best one ? He's really brutal in close combat.
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Old 2013-01-20, 12:47   Link #625
sasahar17
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
I don't think Megatron would help the BETA. To me he might make humanity his slaves due to their intelligence and considering the BETA are mindless drones and some of his minions aren't that bright.

This might lead to an Enemy Mine with him and Optimus (Megatron wants smart, productive slaves, Optimus wants to save humanity.)
I am suddenly reminded of the first Transformers movie where Megatrons corners Sam on the roof and says ‘You can be my pet.’ Who’s the poor sod he’s saying it to this time?

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Originally Posted by wavehawk View Post
"This ends here. It doesn't matter if it's a large planet or small, great or less. This blue planet, this... Earth. Autobots---we stop them HERE."
That is so Optimus Prime.

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Originally Posted by Dragonkid11 View Post
In fact,I can't imagine the first contact of humanity in Muvluv with just about EVERYTHING would be smooth at all.
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Originally Posted by wavehawk View Post
...not to mention, it'll expalin why they're "Robots in Disguise" on Earth...
Man, someone should write this story for the first contact alone. ML Humanity, paranoid of all things extraterrestrial after getting pwned by space miners for thirty years will probably flip out completely when faced with giant talking robots with big guns. I bet Bumblebee, good ol’ lovable kid friendly bumblebee, will probably be labeled as a threat the second he shows his face (incidentally, yellow and black matches well with Yui’s personal colors…).

Incidentally since most of the cars they’re based on probably won’t exist on ML Earth, what Alt forms will they take as disguises? Rocking around in their Cybertonian Alt forms is a surefire way to elicit a response from an A-10 Squadron.

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Originally Posted by wavehawk View Post
Possibly. And it kind of reflects his leadership style. But it'd be fun to see why Humanity's setup with the TSFs is working---they may reflect existing Cybertronian combat doctrine.
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Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
If we are talking about a close combat prime won't the 2007 movieverse Prime be the best one ? He's really brutal in close combat.
Another thing to note is that, assuming you allow for don’t have mass shifting, most Autobots are much smaller than the average TSF, and by extension the larger the BETA types. Their ranged weapons will probably punch holes through Destroyer armor like it was paper, but close combat might be a problem for the smaller Autobots. On the other hand, guys like Metroplex or Fortress Maximus are going to be enormous targets for the Lasers even through the could probably flatten a Hive with a couple of good salvos. And then of course there's the huge numerical difference to take into account.

How will the transformers fight the BETA? M

On another note, is it okay if I post some stuff relating to my fanfics here(authors notes, world building stuff, etc…)? AMT seems to be doing it, but I’m much more long winded them him. My ‘notes’ might end up taking 1000+ words or so.
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Old 2013-01-20, 19:04   Link #626
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Final version of my snip is up on FF.net, and is now the first chapter of something called Tropical Thunder, which my design concept is essentially "Malaysian Hornets in Action" You can find it at this link.
I took a look at this. Its not bad but I do have a couple things I'd like to point out as potential points for improvement. First off, you switch from past to present tense midway through the scene where you're talking about Ray and John's pasts and their connection with each other. Secondly you might want to consider following the "show, don't tell" principal a bit more with the next scene where Ray gets saved by John. You start the scene by saying that Ray is good, but cocky and overconfident -something you'd already established through his actions during the familiarization flight in an earlier scene. Rather than doing that, I would suggest putting the audience in Ray's cockpit with him as he unloads his assault cannon, switches to a knife, butchers the Destroyer, and then gets pinned by tank class BETA. The current version of the scene seems rather detached, and this approach would hopefully make it seem less detached. I would also recommending changing that scene to past tense.
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Old 2013-01-20, 21:53   Link #627
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I took a look at this. Its not bad but I do have a couple things I'd like to point out as potential points for improvement. First off, you switch from past to present tense midway through the scene where you're talking about Ray and John's pasts and their connection with each other. Secondly you might want to consider following the "show, don't tell" principal a bit more with the next scene where Ray gets saved by John. You start the scene by saying that Ray is good, but cocky and overconfident -something you'd already established through his actions during the familiarization flight in an earlier scene. Rather than doing that, I would suggest putting the audience in Ray's cockpit with him as he unloads his assault cannon, switches to a knife, butchers the Destroyer, and then gets pinned by tank class BETA. The current version of the scene seems rather detached, and this approach would hopefully make it seem less detached. I would also recommending changing that scene to past tense.
Noted on all aspects. Thanks for your feedback! To be honest this is the first thing I've written properly in close to 3 years, so yeah, I am rusty.

Regards the past-present, I'd actually not really noticed that at all

As for style of the fic, an experiment I'm doing is that while the narration is past tense, the action is present tense. Sorta like trying to combine someone narrating the past, interposed with flashbacks... I guess it didn't really work?

I'll take this all into account for the next installment. Once again, thanks!
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Old 2013-01-21, 02:42   Link #628
Dragonkid11
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Man, someone should write this story for the first contact alone. ML Humanity, paranoid of all things extraterrestrial after getting pwned by space miners for thirty years will probably flip out completely when faced with giant talking robots with big guns. I bet Bumblebee, good olí lovable kid friendly bumblebee, will probably be labeled as a threat the second he shows his face (incidentally, yellow and black matches well with Yuiís personal colorsÖ).

Incidentally since most of the cars theyíre based on probably wonít exist on ML Earth, what Alt forms will they take as disguises? Rocking around in their Cybertonian Alt forms is a surefire way to elicit a response from an A-10 Squadron.
It going to be Dark of the moon all over again,except EVEN MORE DARKER.
About the availability of fancy cars...well...
There's always America...Now this suddenly became a fridge brilliance because the only place that have a lots of cars and trucks IS AMERICA(the continent). Mostly because other country put their resource in making TSF.And considering USA is the most influential country in Muvluvverse(for being rich). The Decepticons will attempt to control it from within,and may have already did that for centuries(Most emphasis on "Robot in Disguise").That will make the first contact goes even more rough due to the fact it's not the first time...

Quote:
Another thing to note is that, assuming you allow for donít have mass shifting, most Autobots are much smaller than the average TSF, and by extension the larger the BETA types. Their ranged weapons will probably punch holes through Destroyer armor like it was paper, but close combat might be a problem for the smaller Autobots. On the other hand, guys like Metroplex or Fortress Maximus are going to be enormous targets for the Lasers even through the could probably flatten a Hive with a couple of good salvos. And then of course there's the huge numerical difference to take into account.
Like us all forget about that Megatron(G1) can transform in the handheld pistol that break all logic.....

Anyway,I don't think any transformer would want to have their alt form as TSF,the yo dawg meter is too high.

Besides that,transformers ARE supposed to be so freaking high tech the only things that can damage a transformers is another transformers(And REALLY BIG GUNS,WITH PLURAL).The Bayformers are made of glass.The REAL transformers are made of adamantium.Unless the laser classes have enough intelligent to focus fire on a single target for several seconds,transformers are immune to laser.

But,in the end,it's still depended on which canon the writer is going to use.
Quote:
On another note, is it okay if I post some stuff relating to my fanfics here(authors notes, world building stuff, etcÖ)? AMT seems to be doing it, but Iím much more long winded them him. My Ďnotesí might end up taking 1000+ words or so.
Sure
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Old 2013-01-21, 17:59   Link #629
NorthernFallout
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Noted on all aspects. Thanks for your feedback! To be honest this is the first thing I've written properly in close to 3 years, so yeah, I am rusty.

Regards the past-present, I'd actually not really noticed that at all

As for style of the fic, an experiment I'm doing is that while the narration is past tense, the action is present tense. Sorta like trying to combine someone narrating the past, interposed with flashbacks... I guess it didn't really work?

I'll take this all into account for the next installment. Once again, thanks!
I took a look as well and I largely agree with Darthtabby, though I am personally more lenient on Show, Don't Tell for short snippets. Still, it would have been nice.

Spoiler for for spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace:
Hope that helps. Poke me in IRC if there's something else.
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Old 2013-01-22, 01:00   Link #630
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Noted on all aspects. Thanks for your feedback! To be honest this is the first thing I've written properly in close to 3 years, so yeah, I am rusty.

Regards the past-present, I'd actually not really noticed that at all

As for style of the fic, an experiment I'm doing is that while the narration is past tense, the action is present tense. Sorta like trying to combine someone narrating the past, interposed with flashbacks... I guess it didn't really work?

I'll take this all into account for the next installment. Once again, thanks!
You know, I'd been inclined to say that Past Tense was the better choice, but I had trouble coming up with a good reason why. According to a little reading I just did on the subject, Present Tense is much more difficult to write well and can be difficult for some readers to get used to (Past Tense is a very natural form to use when storytelling). On the other hand, it is often credited with lending scenes more immediacy, which is kind of at odds with my feeling that the scene was detached. So maybe it was something else that was at fault for ending the scene its detached feeling.

I did a bit of experimentation with trying to do a version of the scene that kept the present tense but started off differently. Here's the intro (I actually got a bit carried away and tried rewriting the whole scene, but for now I'm just going to go with this. If you want I can try to post more though):

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-01-22, 01:03   Link #631
kaizerknight01
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if only Muv luv have EOT (extra Over tech ) years to prepare the TSF will be reborn TVF (Tactical Variable Fighter)

Let the Bratty Savoir of alternate universe ( Takeru) the Mecha Gear Head ( Yuuya ) and (Not Kamen Rider) Hibiki ( in VF 25( tornado & Armored) ) ..... As for Sumika give her the Macross Quarter ( well it has trade mark Macross attack punch )

Spoiler for one can hope:
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Old 2013-01-22, 01:12   Link #632
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by NorthernFallout View Post
I took a look as well and I largely agree with Darthtabby, though I am personally more lenient on Show, Don't Tell for short snippets. Still, it would have been nice.

Spoiler for for spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace:
Hope that helps. Poke me in IRC if there's something else.
Aha, thanks. That's stuff that I hadn't really thought about...

Having the lotsa commas in Ray's little flyby was an attempt to replicate a storytelling style I'd seen, where the narrator speaks fast and urgently. I guess it didn't really work here - or rather, because I could "hear" it, I overlooked how that style felt as read. Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, rereading John and Adrian's conversation, the tense is all over the place. I'm really not sure what the hell I was doing here I think I had a vague idea of the flight being a sorta past tense rememberance, while the conversation with Adrian was in the immediate present, but my tenses got all screwed up. I'll need to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
You know, I'd been inclined to say that Past Tense was the better choice, but I had trouble coming up with a good reason why. According to a little reading I just did on the subject, Present Tense is much more difficult to write well and can be difficult for some readers to get used to (Past Tense is a very natural form to use when storytelling). On the other hand, it is often credited with lending scenes more immediacy, which is kind of at odds with my feeling that the scene was detached. So maybe it was something else that was at fault for ending the scene its detached feeling.
It could simply be that I lack sufficient human empathy that can be expressed, which has a follow-on effect that my writing, as is myself, is too detached.

Or maybe it was the couple years I spent studying law and writing out my arguments in a detached manner. I'll need to rework this a bit more, I think.

Quote:
I did a bit of experimentation with trying to do a version of the scene that kept the present tense but started off differently. Here's the intro (I actually got a bit carried away and tried rewriting the whole scene, but for now I'm just going to go with this. If you want I can try to post more though):

Spoiler:
That's... that's actually pretty good, though not quite my voice, but I see where you're going there. *nods* I'd be pleased to see what else you come up with, if it's okay with you.

And again, I'm grateful for your efforts in helping.
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Old 2013-01-22, 22:59   Link #633
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose
That's... that's actually pretty good, though not quite my voice, but I see where you're going there. *nods* I'd be pleased to see what else you come up with, if it's okay with you.
Heheh... that's the problem with me trying to rework scenes in other people's writing. They end up in my voice instead of the original author's. And I'm supposed to be making suggestions, not taking control of the other person's story.

Since you asked though, here's my attempt at reworking that scene using a different approach from the one you did. I've made some further edits since last night because there were some things I wasn't satisfied with previously.

Spoiler:


The change in perspective at the beginning seems to have had the consequence of making me take a narrower perspective later in the scene as well (specifically the part where John saves Ray). That might not be a good match for how you want to portray things.

Also, one recommendation I've come across is to be consistent about Tense. Part of the problem I had with your use of Present Tense may have been because if came after you'd begun the chapter in Past Tense and I didn't have time to get used to it. Its hard to say for sure whether that's the case with this small a sample though.
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Old 2013-01-23, 01:45   Link #634
John117xCortana
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In terms of 3D maneuverability a VF is superior to a TSF aren't they ?
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Old 2013-01-23, 02:55   Link #635
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all this discussion totaly reminded me of this epic but dead japanese muvluv fanfic. i mentioned it before i believe. The fic in question is called Muvluv: to the end of the galaxy.

It crosses muvluv unlimited+TDA with Post SRW Alpha3 Cobray route. The story begins immediately post final mission true end in @3 after fighting off Keisar Ephes. when The alpha numbers attempted to jump back to their original time-line with the power of Irui/Nashim Guneden and Ideon that they got sent to the Muvluv unlimited TDA verse instead because of 00 unit and Kasumi's psychic echos called out to the Ide . Also this version of the Alpha numbers got hammered pretty good by Kaiser Ephes in the final boss fight of Alpha 3, and some Supers and reals robot are no longer serviceable for the time being. So almost all units are damaged to some degree and running low on ammo after the Keisar ephes fight. Of course many of these repairs and resupply will be difficult or straight up impossible to acquire in muluv earth. Basically the author brings "real-world" logistics and physics into srw(certain units can't fit into certain ships, units scale affect the battle- humongous super robots are easy targets for laser class.certain weapons/mechanic that can't operate under earth gravity, feasibility of rare and exotic ammunition and etc) to reduce the OPness of the SRW crew and also the BETA themselves eventually develop new tactics with existing BETA strains in an attempt to counter the new threat.


For the MLU side, its after the evacuation of the colony ships but before the global G-bombing phase of op Babylon. Takeru gets meiya's 00R repainted in black. the valkyries and 207 are around but disbanded and spread out all over the world. Marimo is back to being a major in the IJA and eventually gets her own battalion as a major with the UN curiously named "Wardog" which features all marimo's hand picked pilots from all over the world and will get many members who we are familiar with from the various TDA and chronicle side stories. Also this isn't Muvluv without political power play and back stabbings so the Americans and Alt 5 supporters are scheming something huge with the the arrival of the alpha numbers. The fact that the Alpha numbers possessed a 70km(Eltreum from gunbuster) battleship and the better part a space fairing colony fleet(Macross seven) not withstanding, The biggest political shock seems to be the fact that the Alpha numbers apart from having its fair share of Alien crew members and many human hybrids. America is of course pressuring the UN to Sanction and ban many aspects and impose restrictions on the Alpha number's Rules of engagement and the attempts at manipulating the alpha numbers in the name of self interests are quite rampant and obvious. So of course half of the Alpha numbers being Super robot pilots are shocked and appalled at the lack of unity the world is showing in the face of extinction and all the signs of people in power being corrupted and greedy while the common soldiers fighting for the survival of mankind gets shafted from every way since Sunday.
Also the running gag of yuuko destroying her office in rage like 18 times from just even trying to understand the various bullshit workings and energy source of the various SRW units. The real type she could somewhat understand and rationalize their theory such as minovosky particles, the creation of Gundanium Alloy and Phase shift Armor or even the advanced sentient AI of the GaoGaiGar 's not!transformer robots, but stuff like the Ide, Getter ray, J-jewel/G-stone, AT Field, EOT(extra over technology), Tetragrammaton or any other Super-Robot Not!Magictek science that the alpha number felt safe to reveal to the her and/or the rest of the UN is driving yuuko insane. Seeing the kilometer long Battle 7 transforming from a battleship to a Giant robot was bad enough, but seeing the way certain super robots fight was just too much for yukko's analytical mind.The more she finds out the more she want to blow her own brains out, God only know what will happen when she finds out about the "god" machine Nashim/Irui guneden that's being stored on board the Eltreum.

Of note is that Cobray and Dis Astragant(being the resident Time-line police since Ingram is now truly dead/merged with Cobray) choose to TIME DIVE into extra to investigate a space time anomaly he detected which turned out to be Alt-verse Takeru before following takeru into canon Alternative to observe the life of the Bratty Savior and the cause of the Space time anomaly (remember this story takes place in Unlimited pre TDA).

As for the mech side of things the author generally have the UC era gundams do good against the BETA until they run out of E-packs on their beam rifle, or when their head vulcans run out of ammo and they get swarmed by Tank classes. Seed CE era Phase-shift can survive the tanks quite well provided their batteries last. I-field are somewhat weak against lasers since BETA lasers are not Minovsky particle based beams. after colony wing series Gundams can survive the lasers class for a bit due to the insane heat resistance of the Gundanium alloy it helps that their pilots are all god tier experts in hit and run. Macross Valkyries do well in there Gerwalk mode since they all have unlimited flight time plus unrivaled 3 dimensional maneuverability in tight spaces allowing them to hover over the BETAs and dance all over the place. Evangelions are pretty godlike against the BETA clasees with their AT-fields but if exposed in the open where thousands of Magnus LUX lasers can target them, then their AT-fields will collapse just like when the evas fought Ramiel.
Orginal generation units like the R-series and other OG original units also do pretty good in close quarters due to all of them using tesla-drives and T-link systems and other various EOT Balmarian tech that lets them maneuver without obeying the laws of momentum and conservation of energy.
Also "Real men ride each other"= BETA pwnage. Zankantou that cleaves evil and Trombe over ride, I ain't gonna explain shit.

Totally recommend any one who can read Japanese or Chinese to go read it. Also feature SRW styled route split of Earth Route and Mars Route( more destructive supers and some reals are on mars route, Reals and some other supers are going to earth to support the UN war effort). Shout outs a plenty : why does the takemizaduchi look like that giant purple monstrosity(most in universe response when seeing the EVA unit 1 for the first time)? Why does "that" gundam remind people of meiya's hair? Getter performing the Unpossible. Irui and Kasumi playing with STRING. and many others.
There is just so much shit in this fic its ridiculous. sadly its in Japanese, though someone did translated into Chinese as well.



the following is the translated teaser i did using various quotes from the Fic for /m awhile ago. see if you can guess who is saying what.
Spoiler:






original Jap ver.
http://www.mai-net.net/bbs/sst/sst.p...=4039&n=0#kiji

Translated Chinese ver
http://bbs.sumisora.org/read.php?tid=10938905
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Old 2013-01-24, 05:21   Link #636
Wild Goose
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In terms of 3D maneuverability a VF is superior to a TSF aren't they ?
Greatly superior at high speed and all aspect manuverability. TSFs seem to be somewhat more manuverable compared to Battroid mode, however.

In terms of combat endurance, however, and close quarters combat, TSFs hold the edge.
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Old 2013-01-24, 10:36   Link #637
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all this discussion totally reminded me of this epic but dead japanese muvluv fanfic. i mentioned it before i believe. The fic in question is called Muvluv: to the end of the galaxy.
Sorry mate, I don’t know Japanese or Chinese and I can’t read it. Sounds good though. Probably worth reading just to see how different techbases would fare against the BETA.

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Greatly superior at high speed and all aspect maneuverability. TSFs seem to be somewhat more maneuverable compared to Battroid mode, however.

In terms of combat endurance, however, and close quarters combat, TSFs hold the edge.
Pretty much this. Both the Valk and TSF were developed to fight different kinds of enemies in different kinds of environments, so it would be unfair to rag on TSFs. That’s the problem with comparing two different machines made from two different tech-bases I suppose.

Another reason I see that it appears TSFs are completely outgunned by VFs at face value is that most Valkyrie models have years of weapons development on third gen TSFs like the Raptor. Keep in mind that the VF-1 Valkyrie only first went into combat in Feb 2009, eight years after the introduction of the F-22A Raptor in the Muv Luv world. I feel that a better comparison would be between an F-22A and the VF-0 Phoenix (2005) which, despite being a developmental machine and inferior to the SV-51, is probably a better match technology wise since it uses conventional turbofans.

Long story short, it is very unfair to the TSFs if you stuck the YF-19 and a F-22A EMD the in a ring and told Isamu and Leon to punch each other. Sure the YF-19 may be an expy of the YF-22, but one’s from 2040 and the other is from 2001, so you can't really say that's a fair fight.

That and the Excalibur has one hell of a Haymaker that would seriously ruin the Raptor’s day.

Last edited by sasahar17; 2013-01-24 at 10:57. Reason: Forgot to add some points to my first reply.
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Old 2013-01-24, 17:31   Link #638
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So, I wrote something.

Spoiler for TSFiA01:
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Old 2013-01-25, 07:00   Link #639
John117xCortana
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Originally Posted by sasahar17 View Post
Sorry mate, I donít know Japanese or Chinese and I canít read it. Sounds good though. Probably worth reading just to see how different techbases would fare against the BETA.


Pretty much this. Both the Valk and TSF were developed to fight different kinds of enemies in different kinds of environments, so it would be unfair to rag on TSFs. Thatís the problem with comparing two different machines made from two different tech-bases I suppose.

Another reason I see that it appears TSFs are completely outgunned by VFs at face value is that most Valkyrie models have years of weapons development on third gen TSFs like the Raptor. Keep in mind that the VF-1 Valkyrie only first went into combat in Feb 2009, eight years after the introduction of the F-22A Raptor in the Muv Luv world. I feel that a better comparison would be between an F-22A and the VF-0 Phoenix (2005) which, despite being a developmental machine and inferior to the SV-51, is probably a better match technology wise since it uses conventional turbofans.

Long story short, it is very unfair to the TSFs if you stuck the YF-19 and a F-22A EMD the in a ring and told Isamu and Leon to punch each other. Sure the YF-19 may be an expy of the YF-22, but oneís from 2040 and the other is from 2001, so you can't really say that's a fair fight.

That and the Excalibur has one hell of a Haymaker that would seriously ruin the Raptorís day.
Considering what Isamu could do in the YF-19 he'd smack Leon's F-22 EMD around like a gag of meat.
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Old 2013-01-25, 09:04   Link #640
wavehawk
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Don't fall asleep at your desk while playing youtube music.

I just had a dream of myself in a mecha happily slaughterign BETA left, right and center to the tune of THIS song:
http://youtu.be/oy-EP8B01tc
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