AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Psycho-Pass

Notices

View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 30 40.54%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 45.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 9.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.70%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-01-25, 10:56   Link #61
Gpower
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
It's interesting how a lot of posters used the street murder scene as an example of the failures of the Sybil system, as I felt the opposite. After recovering from the scene's shock, I felt that the scene, while brutal, actually highlights the benefits of the system.

The bystander effect is already discussed, and this occurs in our modern society, where crime is surely much more prevalent then in the P-P society. The crowd watching the murder of the woman must be completely unable to comprehend what is happening, as they have not imagine such a scene could ever unfold in their world.

This is, perhaps, what people are referring to when they say this is the prove Sybil is wrong. However, what I drew from this scene is that these people lived in a society with a much stronger sense of security then we have, where you don't have to worry about locking doors, where you can trust people you have never met before. Does a person who could live like this really lost a part of his humanity? (That is, disregarding other non-security related downsides of Sybil) IMO this is in fact a huge benefit, possibly the one of the most significant benefit we have seen that the Sybil System brought to society.
Gpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 11:52   Link #62
Heliopolis
hodie mihi, cras tibi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpower View Post
It's interesting how a lot of posters used the street murder scene as an example of the failures of the Sybil system, as I felt the opposite. After recovering from the scene's shock, I felt that the scene, while brutal, actually highlights the benefits of the system....However, what I drew from this scene is that these people lived in a society with a much stronger sense of security then we have, where you don't have to worry about locking doors, where you can trust people you have never met before....
I don't understand your point. Being turned into "mindless sheep" is the greatest benefit of the Sybil System besides giving the people (like we saw this episode) a clearly dangerous and false sense of security.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpower View Post
... Does a person who could live like this really lost a part of his humanity? ...
Any person who can just stand by/walk past and watch another human being killed (in broad daylight at a public crowded place) has lost (long ago) the last shreds of humanity.
Heliopolis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 12:02   Link #63
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Superb episode.

I do think that this episode is pretty condemning of the Sybil system, but at the same time I'm now inclined to think that the Sybil system itself is some sort of metaphor for something else that exists in real world Japan. Based on what I've recently read on this thread, I think that the Sybil system represents something else that can kind of deaden people, and stop them from taking the actions they should take when they see another human being getting killed right in front of their eyes.

To be fair, if I was all alone and caught a murder attempt in progress, I'd have serious second thoughts about risking my own life to save another. I'd want to do the right thing, but a basic sense of self-preservation comes into play here.

But this is different with a crowd of people, of course. There's very little doubt that if even just two or three of the people in the crowd took action against that murderer it would be enough to prevent him from finishing off his targeted victim. I do feel confident in saying that if I was in that crowd and saw that woman being attacked, I'd quickly whisper to the strongest looking guy there "Come on. Let's you and I stop this before she gets killed!"


Anyway, I don't have much time to spare right now, so I'll leave it at that. I'll probably have more to write on this episode later.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-01-25 at 12:26.
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 12:57   Link #64
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Once again, this episode has done nothing to convince me that Sibyl is wrong. I will continue to place the fault with the people themselves. To place the fault with Sibyl is to deny the existence of free will. Not that I don't understand the need to turn an inhuman object into a scapegoat. After all, accepting one's own flaws is really difficult.

Nothing has changed.

Also, I noticed the word "uncaring" a few times. That's not the sensation I got from the scene. The sensation I got was the sheer incapability of processing the thing that is happening.

"Common sense" isn't an established thing. It is merely a train of logic that is shared by a group of people. Change that logic, and the very meaning of "Common sense" will change. The people who were watching the murder were literally unable to grasp what was happening. It hardly even changed their hue. The only reason the general stress level was rising was due to the increased amount of confusion as to what was going on. Even the victim was unable to fully grasp her predicament. I'm surprised no one pointed out that she didn't scream or shout for help. The victim was in fact a bystander herself.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 13:21   Link #65
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
@Dengar: Well yes, but Sybil has effectively conditioned the masses to deny their free will like, well, sheep.

As others have said, it's all a question of liberty. How much do you want to give up in exchange for security and "stability"?

Perhaps even worse than the people passively standing by was how people started filming it, just like how that guy recently filmed that woman being pushed onto the New York subway tracks instead of trying to save her (I'm not sure if the subway woman could've been saved, but that's a topic for another time). In a sense, this hellish world is already upon us... Who needs contracts with an extraterrestrial Mephistopheles when we have folks like these?

Now I have to wonder if this scene was inspired by the murder of that Nitroplus producer. Supposedly the scene with those two misogynists next to Sayaka came from an actual conversation Butcher heard on the train one day.
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 14:04   Link #66
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
I'd think most of the conditioning has been done by the people themselves. They're the ones who chose to completely rely on Sibyl's judgment.

You may argue that people lost that freedom of choice, but then it's due to society becoming like that, in which case the fault lies with either the governing powers, or the previous generation. Either way, the system itself is not the root cause.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 14:46   Link #67
Helius
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: stuck between galaxies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The robot added a nice little touch of black comedy, and highlighted just how wrong and surreal the whole situation was.

I don't think that scene was all that disturbing. It was just enough to make a point. Any less wouldn't have add the desired effect, any more would have been unnecessary and gratuitous. They hit the right note, and I can only praise them for that. To be honest, I'm surprised to see such strong reactions.
Agreed. I thought that scene was well done indeed, and I wasn't at all distrubed by it. You see worse atrocities in the real world anyway.

As mentioned they've put the "bystander effect" into good use here. What's different here is that the crowd's lack of reaction was a result of their sense of (false?) security which renders them unable to comprehend the situation, as opposed to people's inherent selfish nature in real life thus their unwillingness to take responsibilities.

I think Gpower makes a good point in relation to whether the Sibyl System has robbed people of their humanity by making them numb to their surroundings. And I agree that Sibyl represents an idea of an ideal world where people don't have to worry about their personal safety constantly and the trust they can place in each other. As one argues this comes at a cost of people losing their liberty and humanity I say this is debatable. Does passing by a stranger in distress, thinking to yourself: "this has nothing to do with me" makes you any more humane? Where is the compassion? Viewing others with indifference, doubt and distrust, creating an invisible barrier between each other, is that how one defines humanity?

I agree with Dengar. Ultimately it comes down to personal preferences and public sentiments at the time. In the world of Psycho-Pass crimes got out of hand and people got fed up, so they'd rather be controlled by a system than live in constant fear for own safety. The same public sentiment on Sandy Hook forcing Obama to tighten gun control at the expense of 2nd Amendment rights. Again, the central question is whether the benefits outweigh the costs.
Helius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 14:47   Link #68
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpower View Post
It's interesting how a lot of posters used the street murder scene as an example of the failures of the Sybil system, as I felt the opposite. After recovering from the scene's shock, I felt that the scene, while brutal, actually highlights the benefits of the system.
Actually wouldn't you say it's both? In one case yes it shows that people are so not use to crime that seeing it happen in the middle of the street they cannot even realize what is happening. That actually does show the system is working to a degree because crime is just not part of these people's lives.

The absence of crime is a benefit of the system.

However what that scene also shows is a desensitized public. It's great that people no longer worry about crime but being completely desensitized to danger is not a good thing either.

This is a bit of an extreme example but it reminds me of people who can't feel pain. That sounds wonderful but as we know if you can't feel pain and you get hurt you might not realize how much danger you are in.

Not living in constant fear and not being afraid or being able to react when you need to are two very different things.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 16:05   Link #69
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
Okay, so I'm not saying Sybil is "evil", per se. It was likely instituted with the best of intentions, to create a better, safer, less violent world (just like how, say, the Soviet Union was established with the best of intentions). The question is, is it worth it?

I expect a complete rundown on how exactly it came about, why, and how long before the setting, and frankly I don't think I'll be disappointed.
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 17:40   Link #70
Izayoi
I LOVE FLAN_CHAN
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Flan-chan
Age: 12
Send a message via MSN to Izayoi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
I am so disturbed by the murder in the public scene that I actually skip the rest of the episode. I am going to have to clear my head before resuming watching.
^This. The whole situation was so surreal with the robot and all. Excellent build up and well done timings.

Edit:This series is great!
__________________
I love Flandre Scarlet
Izayoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 18:33   Link #71
LightningZERO
You are Dominated!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Age: 25
Superb episode. The whole episode was creepy and tense and going to set up something big. Once again, we get to see the fatal flaw of Sybil System where the people pretty much loss all their common sense and the ability to act. To know that people can be killed in broad day light with the bystanders not capable of understanding it is bonechilling, especially it might happen in real world too...

While Kougami and gang got to solved the murder case, looks like Makishima still has more tricks up his sleeves. While it seems his intention was to wake up the 'sheeps' and sounds noble, the way he did was outright terrifying.

Kougami has a really high PP....I thought 200 range will activate eliminator mode? Or is it 300?
__________________
その再生を破壊する
Destroy This Rebirth
LightningZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 18:55   Link #72
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
That scene was the bystander effect to the extreme, with a large helping of conditioned self-deception.

Anyway, this episode certainly didn't hold anything back when it came to showing off the horror of the system. The series has already hinted at it here and there, but this episode was a hammer to the face. Still, this episode perfectly shows just how ingrained Sybil is into the minds of people. Here we have society that is stuck in an illusion of security. For the sake of that security, they entrust much of their decision-making freedom to an external system. The extent of this is so ridiculous that most people wouldn't even accept the flaws of the system even if you bash them over the head with it, or reveal it right before their very eyes.

It really is curious how technology shapes the mind in the modern world similarly to the world of Psycho-Pass. Technology introduces comfort and convenience into the world. People are overjoyed because it makes life easier. Eventually, this technology fades into the background until its existence is no longer an "innovation" but rather a matter of fact. People then begin to live their lives accepting the existence of this technology as axiomatic and unquestionable (e.g. electricity, and more recently, internet). At this point, technology that was once offered as an alternative choice becomes the only choice left, as most people forget that the other choices existed to begin with.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 19:09   Link #73
KeroKai
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
I suppose what I find strange with the whole society not comprehending what's occurring in front of them is as if they aren't capable of understanding that someone is being assaulted. In fact, the whole pharmacy incident would suggest that people do know what murder is and everything.

So when it comes down to it, I don't really think that they didn't really know what was going on was a valid excuse. Along with the bystander effect, another idea that might explain this scenario could be that people thought that the act was false entertainment or an act? Sort of like the initial confusion with mistaking corpses with art.

If I were to apply Sybil to real life, I think it'd just represent our governmental laws, and our ability to evaluate these laws. Sort of like the idea of conventional and post conventional morality by Kolberg. He's argued that many people are usually stuck in level 4.

Quote:
In Stage four (authority and social order obedience driven), it is important to obey laws, dictums and social conventions because of their importance in maintaining a functioning society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for individual approval exhibited in stage three. A central ideal or ideals often prescribe what is right and wrong, such as in the case of fundamentalism. If one person violates a law, perhaps everyone would—thus there is an obligation and a duty to uphold laws and rules. When someone does violate a law, it is morally wrong; culpability is thus a significant factor in this stage as it separates the bad domains from the good ones. Most active members of society remain at stage four, where morality is still predominantly dictated by an outside force.
KeroKai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 19:09   Link #74
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
It really is curious how technology shapes the mind in the modern world similarly to the world of Psycho-Pass. Technology introduces comfort and convenience into the world. People are overjoyed because it makes life easier. Eventually, this technology fades into the background until its existence is no longer an "innovation" but rather a matter of fact. People then begin to live their lives accepting the existence of this technology as axiomatic and unquestionable (e.g. electricity, and more recently, internet). At this point, technology that was once offered as an alternative choice becomes the only choice left, as most people forget that the other choices existed to begin with.
As I said earlier, "In the Year 2525" provides a good metaphor for this series (and might make a good AMV).
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 20:30   Link #75
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Once again, this episode has done nothing to convince me that Sibyl is wrong.
My impression is that you are this board's staunchest Sibyl defender. In your specific case, it's pretty clear that you're not even playing devil's advocate. You really do seem to like the Sibyl system a lot.

I think I know why you like it. And I think that at least some of your reasons for liking it are valid. But I think they dovetail nicely into why this cautionary tale is so important.

I get the impression that you are a technologist. If so, you think more technology, more data, more carefully structured society geared towards maximum efficiency/utilization of human resources, the better. And I think society increasingly thinks this way about technology. And perhaps that was much of the thinking behind the Sibyl system. There definitely is much benefit to technology, but we can't lose sight of the potential downsides of it.

So you have to temper technology. You have to. You have to have "fail-safes". You have to have plans and preparations for when the system fails. It's no different than, say, people keeping flashlights, candles, and matches in their house for when the power goes out. For the Sibyl system, this would be like having old-fashioned handguns and armed droids at the ready for when the system gets hacked and/or the Dominator stops working right. But as this episode makes clear, those are not there. It's because the technologist viewpoint has gone at least a step too far here.

Sibyl is a case of technology becoming the master of human beings, when it should be the other way around. Technology must serve us; it is not us that should serve technology. And so any system designed for the benefit of humans must keep in mind the inherent frailty and weaknesses of humans.


One of those weaknesses is that we humans tend to like to shirk responsibility. Many of us are eager to leave messier matters in the hands of others, particularly "the government" or "the police" or "experts in the pertinent field". It makes life simpler, and many long for a simple life.

The Sibyl system feeds into this longing, and it takes that longing to a dangerous place where it begins to erode free will itself. Free will is invaluable, but it's not invulnerable. If you jail a man, you've taken away much of his free will, strictly limiting it in practical matters (and Sibyl, of course, does this to people who are merely potential criminals). And if you ensure a nation (or more) of people that "the system" will take care of everything, then free will will naturally erode with it on a societal level.

I think one can validly question if something like the Sibyl system is truly compatible with a society that values free will and holds people accountable for their actions and deeds.


Quote:
Not that I don't understand the need to turn an inhuman object into a scapegoat.
"Inhuman object"? Sibyl speaks, through the Dominators. Tomomi himself spoke to how it affected him to have a gun that speaks like that. Sibyl also determines if people live or die. It's much more than just some "inhuman object".
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 21:30   Link #76
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Hm.... You're wrong about me on quite a few points. Not all of them, I'll admit that.

For one, I merely like the idea of what the Sibyl system stands for. I am totally not a fan of the current circumstances.

The point I'm trying to make, is far different from what you think though.

My point is, there is no blame to be put on the system. The system itself isn't the problem. The problem is the people who have allowed themselves to become so reliant on everything and so out of touch with reality, who feel content with giving away free will (because free will equals responsiblity, equals burden).

The Sibyl system is merely a system of measurement, it's the people who have used it in such a way that it turned society into a bunch of zombies. It didn't have to go that way. But it did go that way, because of people.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 21:41   Link #77
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post

My point is, there is no blame to be put on the system. The system itself isn't the problem.
Sure it is.

You keep talking about how high a value you put on free will, and yet you refuse to place any blame on a system that quite clearly takes people's free will away. Jailing people greatly reduces people's free will, after all.

This is what the Sibyl system does. It jails people, and it kills people, purely on the basis of their Psycho-Pass readings (and it's not like people choose what their Psycho-Pass reading will be). That is a major part of the Sibyl system. If you disagree with that (as I'm now very much inclined to do), then that is something to blame the Sibyl system itself for.


Quote:
The problem is the people who have allowed themselves to become so reliant on everything and so out of touch with reality, who feel content with giving away free will (because free will equals responsiblity, equals burden).
Blaming people for this is like blaming a duck for walking and looking like a duck. What we're talking about here is part of human nature. If a system harms human society because it fails to properly account for inherent human failings then that is a flaw of the system itself. It is something that the system should be blamed for.


Quote:
The Sibyl system is merely a system of measurement,
No, it's not. The Sibyl system is designed to kill and/or jail certain people. That is a key feature of the system; it is perfectly appropriate to judge the system, at least in part, by that feature.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 21:48   Link #78
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under ^^
@Dengar and Triple_R

Perhaps it might help if both of you state a little more concretely what you mean by 'the Sibyl system'? It sounds as if you are not talking about quite the same system at present.
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes


karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 21:56   Link #79
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@Dengar and Triple_R

Perhaps it might help if both of you state a little more concretely what you mean by 'the Sibyl system'? It sounds as if you are not talking about quite the same system at present.
This isn't just a case of "Sibyl system" vs. "societal system" in general. Killing and/or jailing people for having high Psycho-Pass readings is part of the Sibyl system specifically. That is part of what Sibyl is designed to do. It makes no sense to evaluate Sibyl if you're not going to take that aspect of Sibyl into account.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-25, 22:18   Link #80
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under ^^
I understand where you are coming from, but I still think that it is not clear whether the two of you are talking about the same thing or not.

To me, it sounds like Dengar is talking more about the technology that is used to determine Psycho-Passes, in comparison to what people have decided to do with that information.

I could be wrong, of course, so I'll let Dengar respond to you on that.
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes


karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.