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View Poll Results: How does long titles in light novels affect your anticipation in its story?
Very much, positively. 1 0.81%
Not much, but it makes the series interesting. 10 8.06%
It doesn't bother me at all. 67 54.03%
Not much, but worries me a bit. 29 23.39%
Very much, negatively. 17 13.71%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-23, 11:50   Link #81
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I don't mind the long titles really. They're a bit ludicrous and hard to remember so everyone just ends up using the abbreviated version anyway. Even the English language release of the manga based on Ore no Imouto ga Konnani Kawaii Wake ga Nai just says "OREIMO" on the front, which makes no sense to the casual browser!
If no one's actually willing to use a title, then it's a sure sign that it isn't any good. Then again, most anime titles are adequate at best. When was the last show that had a really good title?
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Old 2013-01-23, 13:10   Link #82
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If no one's actually willing to use a title, then it's a sure sign that it isn't any good. Then again, most anime titles are adequate at best. When was the last show that had a really good title?
Yojouhanshinwataikei / The Tatami Galaxy

Both Japanese and english names are good.

By the way, I think that long-light novel titles are maybe somehow tied to titles of Japanese AVs (adult-videos).
I'm no AV historian but I'm pretty sure they've had ludicrously long, explanatory titles like "I came home after being away for 5 years to find my younger step-sister grown up and we started an affair" (or a billion other NSFW titles you can imagine).

Here's my theory: the closer anything gets to porn in Japan, the longer the title.
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Old 2013-01-23, 13:33   Link #83
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Yojouhanshinwataikei / The Tatami Galaxy

Both Japanese and english names are good.
That's a pretty good choice. I think that Shinsekai Yori is a pretty good title as well, especially if it's validated by the final part. It doesn't seem surprising that the best titles seem to be based on novels or the older style of light novels.

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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
By the way, I think that long-light novel titles are maybe somehow tied to titles of Japanese AVs (adult-videos).
I'm no AV historian but I'm pretty sure they've had ludicrously long, explanatory titles like "I came home after being away for 5 years to find my younger step-sister grown up and we started an affair" (or a billion other NSFW titles you can imagine).

Here's my theory: the closer anything gets to porn in Japan, the longer the title.
I don't know anything about AV titles, but that seems to operate on the same principle of hooking a prospective buyer before he picks up the box. But I like your theory as well.
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Old 2013-01-23, 14:06   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Yojouhanshinwataikei / The Tatami Galaxy

Both Japanese and english names are good.

By the way, I think that long-light novel titles are maybe somehow tied to titles of Japanese AVs (adult-videos).
I'm no AV historian but I'm pretty sure they've had ludicrously long, explanatory titles like "I came home after being away for 5 years to find my younger step-sister grown up and we started an affair" (or a billion other NSFW titles you can imagine).

Here's my theory: the closer anything gets to porn in Japan, the longer the title.
lol, that sounds good enough to be true.
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Old 2013-01-24, 05:06   Link #85
asaqe
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I personally really hate this trend of heaps of mediocre galge influenced gutter trash collections of paper with hackered sentences straight out of 2chan posts as titles, which offend us by calling itself "novels".

"I Can't Believe My Osananajimi Is Sleeping With My Mother Who Is Secretly the Maoh and I'm the Chosen Yuusha Who Fails At School Oh Look I Just Made A Light Novel Title wwwwww"

I'm about to resort to some hearty medieval style tradition of good ol' book burnin'.

Before this nonsense got called "light novels", at the dawn of the genre's birth, were some good sci-fi and fantasy novels written for young adults and teens, which I have fond memories of reading in my youth back in the 80s. They were basically the Japanese equivallent of Dragonlance and Xanth. Now that industry has turned into nothing but breeding ground for failed eroge writers.

Not saying there aren't any good LN anymore, but honestly, vast majoity it is steaming pile of dung.
Well, I remember a SA topic which featured LNs which aren't all rejected galge plots. Hell the artists usually work on Galge which only justifies my worst fears about the industry and how Ishihara should push for restrictions for what artists can work in the industry.

Damnit I could kiss you right now if I saw you Aoihige

When I think of this, I think of how the original one was aimed at Light Novels

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net...88268_700b.jpg
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Old 2013-01-24, 16:04   Link #86
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Every time (2 times) I see a LN with a long name it ends up poo poo. OreImo isn't bad, but has a couple of characters who annoy me. Onii-chan No Koto Nanka Zenzen Suki Janain Dakara Ne!! has an abhorrent plot about an incestuous nymph, and plain crappy art to top it off.

I have lost my hope for long names.
But Onii-chan No Koto Nanka Zenzen Suki Janain Dakara Ne!! was actually based on a manga, and as I said before, making obnoxiously-long titles aren't just made for light novels.
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Old 2013-01-25, 00:16   Link #87
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Speaking of which, are there a place where I can find translations of novels like Legend of Galactic Heroes and The Weathering Continent? those are novels or light novels I have been meaning to read them a while back.
On other light novels, I have read some those LN's translation in Baka Tsuki. Either the translations are not so quite good, either the LN's writers have a terrible grasp on prose, which offend me as someone who grew up reading De Maupassant, Le Guin and Moorcock.

Add:

On the game, let's take classics and make them LN titles:

"My Best Friend Poked Seven Holes In My Chest And Took My Fiancée! I Will Take Back My Love!"
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Regards translations, I'm reminded of Matt Thorn, a translator who noted that when translating Japanese, you must have an ear for voice. All too often, translators translate without quite understanding the character's voice, which is probably why LNs sound so bland. It's like someone taking a British TV series, with all the accents and social strata, and dubbing it into French and everyone sounds the same.

tl;dr, LN translators on the whole translate the words, but don't really capture the voice of the characters.

Contrast the Recettear localisation; Andrew Dice's notes on the translation make interesting reading.

Though it can also be that the original authors don't quite have the ability to convey the language, or that the translators and editors don't have the ability to convey the language in English. Off the cuff observation suggests that most young people of my generation and my younger brother's generation lack the language skills to express themselves beyond simple English.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Even though this is a bit of a side-topic, I have to agree with this, though I would also add that this "voice" aspect applies just as much if not more so to the narration. I have to admit that I have a hard time reading most light novel fan translations. The intent of these translations often seems to be conveying the intent of the plot (i.e. so that everyone can understand "what happened"), but there's little apparent thought given to either the voice of the author or the voice of the characters. But this is perhaps fairly obvious, because most fan translators are not "authors"; they act more like "converters" (like hopefully-smarter versions of Google Translate). That makes sense; you get what you pay for, and a novel is a much larger investment than anime or manga. I'm not blaming anyone involved. Fan translations are feeding an audience who just wants to know what happens as soon as possible, and chomp at the bit for spoilers and summaries until the moment the fan translation is out. But I do wonder a bit if this further biases the perception of the literary value of the medium (independent from aohige's argument that most of the medium isn't all that great in the first place). If the idea is to put English readers on an "even playing field", there's more to the story than just "being able to understand the plot".
Which is a pity, because, given quite a lot of LN adaptations nowadays, I do find that it is important for the translator to actually try to convey the mood someway or another. For translating, that works for different media as well, the important thing is to actually get into the mood of the speaker when translating this. I am guilty of this as well, but when we talk about fan translations, a lot of times, there is a struggle of "I should do this in proper English" vs "I want to keep it as close to the Japanese/Chinese version as possible", and the latter can be considered 'transliteration' instead of 'translation'.

As for the issue of the language skills of the author, I can give you a small sampling of LN text:

Spoiler for Size:


Bottom line, it also depends on the skill of the author. You can make the decision for yourself there, I suppose.

Back on the skill of translators, while I have to agree with Relentless regarding the 'converter' issue, another problem is how the Japanese language in particular sometimes does not translate well into English. For one, there are idioms that the translator can either translate as it is and leave a note explaining the idiom, or the translator comes up with a similar idiom in English. Honorifics of course also do not translate very well, like -chan, -kun, and sorts. The professionals omit it (mostly), but a lot of FTL, myself include (but I do wonder if I can call myself a translator), do include the honorifics, not only because there is no way to translate these honorifics directly (only a few, as -sama, -senshu, -dono etc, the status honorifics can be translated directly as well), but also because it is like an indication to the fans, saying, 'Hey, we're translating from Japanese. Don't think that we're translating from other languages' as well. Not a valid reason, but when you get demand of translations from so many people, lashings and death threats and such, you just can't expect to please everyone here. Not trying to jab at anyone in particular, but I have been guilty of that in the past as well, and right now, I feel like I will be trending away from that (for once, I do not use honorifics in Unicorn...), but I still have a long way to go with that.

Next, regarding the issue of 'voices'. I do feel that it also extends to more than that. You see, while anime and manga have visuals to help, the LNs (or even Novels--Frozen Teardrop, Unicorn, Another, Biblia are examples of series that should not be considered LNs because of their publishers, which means that they cater to a different age group as compared to LNs, which are catered to the young, though statisticians simply lump them together when doing stat-computing) have only a few pages of illustrations, 10+ at best, so the translators also need to visualize the scenes. While it is a prerequisite for LN authors to describe the details to such an extent that it can be overexaggerated at times, the translator also has to fulfil the role of a reader and find a way to visualize it instead of merely focusing on the action scenes or the dialogues itself. If there is a need, play BGM, do whatever it takes to visualize the scene. If you need to imagine how the dialogue proceeds, just imagine your friends being the ones talking, put the appropriate character in them and imagine. I remember that I used to demand for British English for Index translations because it just does not appropriate for the English characters to be speaking in American English, but I gave up after seeing so much work that needs to be done. (and I am utterly annoyed whenever someone says that I am not a native English speaker just because I do not translate in American English...like, come on?), and there were American characters that appeared later, so I did not bother anymore. While in Japanese, you get pronouns like 'Watashi, Atashi, boku, ore, uchi, washi, watakushi and such, in English, all of them translate to...'I'. What should be a clear conversation ends up like this:

Quote:
“Yuuji…you actually thought of such a terrifying plan…”

“No, I didn’t expect the feedback on the summoned beasts at all…after seeing that, even I had to feel pity for them…”

“Well, Akihisa-kun…”

We returned to class F’s waiting area. After taking victory from class A, we could look forward to a happy lunchtime, but for some reason, I just can’t feel happy.

“Besides, I thought that ‘the 3rd years wouldn’t accept supplementary tests to continue the match because they didn’t have anything confiscated’. If that damned old granny didn’t interfere, it wouldn’t have ended up like this.”

“Well, Sakamoto-kun…”

Let’s ignore the Toko-Natsu group, we really did something overboard and cruel to the 4th batter sempai. I hope he won’t get any mental trauma…

“The way I see it, the principal seemed to find that this was too much. After the match, she promised to set the summoned beasts back to how it was.”

“…That was a tragedy.”

“Well, Kinoshita-kun, Tsuchiya-kun…”

Seeing that scene of despair, the principal probably felt that she’s not worthy to be an educator for making such a cruel decision. I can only offer my prayers to the four souls who lost their lives.

“Okay, as for the match in the afternoon…”

“Well…PLEASE LISTEN TO ME!”
Can you actually tell me for real that you can tell who are the ones talking, exactly? That is another struggle for LNT because in English, there is no clear indication of who are the ones talking, and most LNs do not go about like English novels where the text is more explicit about who are the ones talking.

Another issue of LNT is the style of translating. As you can see from the text above, there is a lot of emphasis on aspect instead of tense. To give an example:

"Let's go to the pool." I said to her

I say to her, "Let's go to the pool."

There is a rapid-fire sequence in this, and unfortunately, it either just does not work as well in English, or that the English readers are so used to reading everything in a single tense. It might be easier to do so for 3rd person view stories like Index, but for 1st person view stories like SAO, it just feels out of place. While most people would prefer to read it in past tense (as far as feedback goes), I feel by converting it to past tense, there will be a lack of anticipation, excitement, because it feels like a recollection instead of a narration, and gives the feeling like 'Oh this guy will survive'. This is more prominent in FPV stories than TPV stories. However, if a translator uses present tense (and that goes for a lot of translators who translate from Chinese, since Chinese does not have any tense as such), the text will feel very rigid unless informal speech is used, and informal speech, I feel, should not be used unless it is for dialogue, though I admit that I used informal speech in the past.

To summarize, the LN translating scene is flawed, partly because most people care only about knowing what is going on instead of focusing on the interactions between the cast where the meat of the text is, partly because of the deficiencies of both the original authors and the FTL (more of the latter), partly because of the difference in language styles that sometimes cannot be conveyed in different languages, and partly because a lot of the translators are basically lone fighters (no editors to help, and even those who edit may not provide the correct edits due to either lack of understanding of original text or for other reasons)

Back on topic, I am getting relatively annoyed by the recent trend of such titles because it just feels like these titles are just copying styles. The lack of originality, I feel, is just repulsive to me. Yes, I am getting annoyed by how fanservice oriented this industry is at this point. However, the thing I find about these long titles for one is that, they attract attention. I don't know how it is related to galges and AVs (since I don't watch them), but I do find a lot of these stories to be very trashy in terms of plot. That is another reason why I comtemplated about just giving up on the LN scene itself. In the end, however, the publishers are just going to make authors do stories that they know will definitely sell, and unfortunately, harems, incest and overpowered protagonists with almost no character flaws just so happened to be the main trend nowadays...

...Sometimes, I really hope to see a story, just for once, a story that is written because the author wants to that is different from the norm, but this is just a pipe dream for me now.
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:25   Link #88
asaqe
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Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
Back on topic, I am getting relatively annoyed by the recent trend of such titles because it just feels like these titles are just copying styles. The lack of originality, I feel, is just repulsive to me. Yes, I am getting annoyed by how fanservice oriented this industry is at this point. However, the thing I find about these long titles for one is that, they attract attention. I don't know how it is related to galges and AVs (since I don't watch them), but I do find a lot of these stories to be very trashy in terms of plot. That is another reason why I comtemplated about just giving up on the LN scene itself. In the end, however, the publishers are just going to make authors do stories that they know will definitely sell, and unfortunately, harems, incest and overpowered protagonists with almost no character flaws just so happened to be the main trend nowadays...

...Sometimes, I really hope to see a story, just for once, a story that is written because the author wants to that is different from the norm, but this is just a pipe dream for me now.
Lets look at the reasons why this is happening

1) Former Galge scriptwriters looking to do something new but without a good mecha anime designer or game company to help them out, they go to do doing LNs since it is effectively pitching anime scripts.

2) Hentai artists, this is the double edged sword that defines Japanese Anime/Manga. You know the saying about where there's smoke, there is fire? Well 99% of the time, where there is fanservice, the artist did porn. Properly controlling creative talent in seeing who gets to work for the industry and who gets stuck as amateurs selling their stuff is now the only way the LN industry can be saved.

And there are plenty out there, the problem is people rarely notice LNs that aren't what you talk about as the main trend.

http://dash.shueisha.co.jp/_rokka/

Why can't we have bishounen LNs animated for once really?
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:31   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
...Sometimes, I really hope to see a story, just for once, a story that is written because the author wants to that is different from the norm, but this is just a pipe dream for me now.
You could always try Rokka or Kawakami-sensei's stuff

Quote:
2) Hentai artists, this is the double edged sword that defines Japanese Anime/Manga. You know the saying about where there's smoke, there is fire? Well 99% of the time, where there is fanservice, the artist did porn. Properly controlling creative talent in seeing who gets to work for the industry and who gets stuck as amateurs selling their stuff is now the only way the LN industry can be saved.
And what's wrong with an artist doing H if his art is good and it helps him with his work? It's not as if the artist is doing the story.....seriously...so many so called reasons like this that don't actually address the real reason. You would rather these illustrators be out of work just because they draw H eh?
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Old 2013-01-25, 05:51   Link #90
Sleep_ping
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Lets look at the reasons why this is happening

1) Former Galge scriptwriters looking to do something new but without a good mecha anime designer or game company to help them out, they go to do doing LNs since it is effectively pitching anime scripts.

2) Hentai artists, this is the double edged sword that defines Japanese Anime/Manga. You know the saying about where there's smoke, there is fire? Well 99% of the time, where there is fanservice, the artist did porn. Properly controlling creative talent in seeing who gets to work for the industry and who gets stuck as amateurs selling their stuff is now the only way the LN industry can be saved.

And there are plenty out there, the problem is people rarely notice LNs that aren't what you talk about as the main trend.

http://dash.shueisha.co.jp/_rokka/

Why can't we have bishounen LNs animated for once really?
The hentai artists aren't going to make as much influence as the editor-in-charge and so on...or rather, I think the reason why there are so many hentai artists involved is because the publishers want them to help in the art, not ask them for influence. In this process, I think this is the other way around, that the publishers want more fanservice type of stories, so, why not hire the ones who are best at this job, the ones who can draw the sexy pictures? I think this is not because of the H-artists or the galges...it's like they're openly revolting against Ishihara-shi lol. But no, I don't think these are the causes. They are more like by-products of this trend coming up, that more and more LNs are centered around such themes. But then again, we're going off-topic here.

Well, I did translate a bit of Rokka no Yuusha somewhere, but I did agree that I should not be translating(?) this series in the first place, so don't expect any further progress from me.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
You could always try Rokka or Kawakami-sensei's stuff
Kawakami-sensei? I'll fail my modules this sem if I start reading all 12 volumes of GENESIS, unless you want me to start reading from the FORTH series...

Anyway, the bottom line is that unless this cash cow is going to stop selling, there is no way for publishers to stop producing such series because this will just keep selling, especially with the LN anime adaptations becoming more often since the days of Seikai no Senki and Slayers. Then again, if there is anything positive I can take, it is that such things are fads and will wear out over time. That goes for long names too. I mean, do you want to remember a name like Jugem-Jugem Poop Throwing Machine Shin-chan’s Day Before Yesterday Underwear Shinpachi’s Life Balmunk Fezarion Isaac Schneider One Thirds Pure Feeling Two Thirds Worried-Over-A-Hangnail Feeling Though Betrayal Knows My Name I Know The Unknown The Cuttlefish Tastes Kind Of Different Than It Did Last Time Because It Was Caught Near The Pond And Served With Oil From A Hoofed Mammal, Pepepepepepepepepepepe Take Care From Here On In Please And Finally The End Bichigu Somaru?
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Old 2013-01-25, 06:09   Link #91
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Everyone is concern of long titles.. how about one letter titles?
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Old 2013-01-25, 06:20   Link #92
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Everyone is concern of long titles.. how about one letter titles?
Hm...? K? Though that technically isn't a LN original, and then again, there are only 26 characters to choose from the alphabets.

However, if I have to say, I do prefer titles to be short and sweet instead of one title essay, so that I don't have to remember what exactly is the title. If there's anything I do like about IS in particular, it is that it has a short name, easy to remember (but forgettable story)
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Old 2013-01-25, 06:43   Link #93
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@ hentai/eroge artists

There are reason they are trying to land as much job as possible, they need to uncrease their portfolio and I am pretty sure that just "2002-2012 - Published h-doujins regularly for Comicket" is something any self-respecting artists don't really want in his employment record. While you say they are hentai artists, they ARE artists too. They draw stuff, they want to improve, etc...

Bottomline, give those h-artists some slack, they are seeking "respectable" jobs too.
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Old 2013-01-25, 06:57   Link #94
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@Teh Ping: Thanks for that massive post. Really insightful stuff that I've been annoyed at, - yet couldn't put my finger on - now explained in depth. Wants me to get into editing more... seeing how I lack any kind of translating skills but still understand the theory of getting it right.
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Old 2013-01-25, 07:37   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
The hentai artists aren't going to make as much influence as the editor-in-charge and so on...or rather, I think the reason why there are so many hentai artists involved is because the publishers want them to help in the art, not ask them for influence. In this process, I think this is the other way around, that the publishers want more fanservice type of stories, so, why not hire the ones who are best at this job, the ones who can draw the sexy pictures? I think this is not because of the H-artists or the galges...it's like they're openly revolting against Ishihara-shi lol. But no, I don't think these are the causes. They are more like by-products of this trend coming up, that more and more LNs are centered around such themes. But then again, we're going off-topic here.

Well, I did translate a bit of Rokka no Yuusha somewhere, but I did agree that I should not be translating(?) this series in the first place, so don't expect any further progress from me.



Kawakami-sensei? I'll fail my modules this sem if I start reading all 12 volumes of GENESIS, unless you want me to start reading from the FORTH series...
Read AHEAD. It's much better anyway I find.

Rokka is really easy to read. One volume can be finished in 5 days even if you are busy. And this is about reading for your own, not translating (whoever gave two shits about the consumers of BT anyway...)

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@ hentai/eroge artists

There are reason they are trying to land as much job as possible, they need to uncrease their portfolio and I am pretty sure that just "2002-2012 - Published h-doujins regularly for Comicket" is something any self-respecting artists don't really want in his employment record. While you say they are hentai artists, they ARE artists too. They draw stuff, they want to improve, etc...

Bottomline, give those h-artists some slack, they are seeking "respectable" jobs too.
Especially when you consider the artists who are legendary in their status, CHOCO, Tony Taka, G Yuusuke, Kobuichi, Carnelian to name a few, all have H-artworks as major parts of their portfolios as well. Denying H-artists means denying them too
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Old 2013-01-25, 09:04   Link #96
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Especially when you consider the artists who are legendary in their status, CHOCO, Tony Taka, G Yuusuke, Kobuichi, Carnelian to name a few, all have H-artworks as major parts of their portfolios as well. Denying H-artists means denying them too
I actually thought that every single LN is illustrated by someone who did ero-works before, be it independently or in eroges. That's how often these illustrators' works appear in LNs.
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Old 2013-01-25, 09:10   Link #97
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I actually thought that every single LN is illustrated by someone who did ero-works before, be it independently or in eroges. That's how often these illustrators' works appear in LNs.
Think about it, the world of video games, animation and manga is an aquarium full of sharks and pirahnas. Any job is good to get.
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Old 2013-01-25, 10:34   Link #98
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I actually thought that every single LN is illustrated by someone who did ero-works before, be it independently or in eroges. That's how often these illustrators' works appear in LNs.
True...face it, drawing ero-stuff is also good for practising drawing of characters anyway
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:16   Link #99
asaqe
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Think about it, the world of video games, animation and manga is an aquarium full of sharks and pirahnas. Any job is good to get.
Compile Heart's main stable of artists is the only one i can think of that is exception to the rule. Despite how fanservice ridden Tsunako's later works are, I can't find anything to pin her with.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
True...face it, drawing ero-stuff is also good for practising drawing of characters anyway
Tell that to the Deviantart anime community over here, our equvilant of the comiket market's artist thinks self censorship is a wonderful idea. Yet, somehow at this point, can't disagree with them
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Old 2013-01-25, 14:14   Link #100
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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
Tell that to the Deviantart anime community over here, our equvilant of the comiket market's artist thinks self censorship is a wonderful idea. Yet, somehow at this point, can't disagree with them
They can not post porn on Deviantart.
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