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Old 2011-01-09, 21:15   Link #41
totoum
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I think things started getting out of hand when moe started being viewed as a genre,since as others have said,moe is something subjective that was just originaly used to describe characters,not a whole show.The characters could come from any genre,horror included.

The only way to really define it as a genre is to say that a "moe anime" is an anime that has lots of moe characters in it,but since moe is subjective you're going to have a hard time putting bounderies around which anime fit the "genre" or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneHige
I also use the term 'moe anime' to dismiss anime often. The context though its because the creators/designer designed the story and characters that cater to the largest or most popular 'moe'-traits. For example, loli, cat ears, tsundere are some of the traits that are massively popular among anime otakus. If an anime is designing characters and story with that in mind, and the main selling point IS the two, then I classify that under 'moe-anime' and drop it before it hurts my brain.
My personal name for those is "moe fanservice shows" because just like in "traditional" fanservice shows the viewer isn't really watching the show for the plot but for the "service",it's just a different kind of "service".
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Old 2011-01-09, 21:16   Link #42
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Basically, if you want me to allow a criticism to stick to the moe genre, you do have to show its pretty broad based. Arguments like "moe generally involves a sexual element because Key originally made porn games and Key is very popular" aren't really going to cut it because the evidence is too narrow (and debatable - what made Key popular?).
Which I think is pretty easy to do, but these criticisms are often ignored. For example one criticism I have of the idea of "moe" is that anime producers often supplant actual character building with common "moe traits.*" (* moe traits being common traits found in characters that elicit a feeling of moe in many of its viewers like tsundere for example).

Now I don't wish to bring up every moe anime in existence that has done this unless I have to, but it is a common problem. Sure you have animes like EF who don't, and actually make real characters (Probably why I highly value this as a romance no doubt), but it is a persistent problem I find in MANY shows, including the lauded trifectora of Air, Kanon, and Clannad.

Now realize that this is the same as people criticizing shonens for lack of female development, criticizing the mechas for lack of original concepts about war, saying that the comedies use the same techniques over and over again, or what have you. The difference being, that for some reason you see criticisms like these stick, while the ones about moe don't. Do the criticisms on moe reflect all shows with the concept of moe? No. Do the criticisms that each of these other genres or types of stories elicit reflect every show in their respective genre? No. That's why I find it frustrating personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I would say that many moe fans are lacking in the area of "basic theory" of what moe is. This is partly the result of inadequate resources on the concept - I developed most of my theories on the subject through first hand observations on moe shows and discussions with a small circle of like minded individuals. Looking back on it, I certainly didn't have an adequate understanding of the concept in my first couple years as a moe fan. It doesn't help that the resources provided by sites like ANN and TVtropes often don't capture the concept that well (IMO).
No one really agrees all that much on the concept. I've talked to so called "moe" experts on several forums who have given me wildly different definitions or explanations. It just leaves me scratching my head. For the record though, your definition that you outlined seems to be the clearest one I've seen, and is probably as close to my understanding of it as well, but I've seen many different interpretations else where.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
On the horror example.. do you like psychological horror, fantasy horror, or real grim horror? Note the connection is that you feel horrified and that "a horror fan" is not often a fan of all three. The connection here is that you FEEL moe about something. Moe is not something a character *is*, its the reaction of a viewer to the character, the feeling generated.
That is where many western fans, be they be pro-moe or anti-moe, fall off the wagon. It isn't an inherent attribute of the character - the character has traits that invoke moe in some viewers. Practical upshot in the industry: the viewers with the biggest wallets tend to drive the creation of characters that invoke moe in them and like any fad the producers go to the well too often.
Which goes along with what I said about each genre have nuances or different spins on the subject.

So yes, I understand that moe is a feeling, and that the viewer is supposed to feel moe about certain characters. The problem is there is a lack of specifics on what the feeling "moe" is. We know what we feel when we are horrified, we know what we feel when we are sad/depressed... What exactly is this feeling of "moe?"

To me, moe is about the same as liking a girl in a series. Am I wrong? I don't believe so. Sure some may argue that moe isn't gender specific, but whatever. It usually applies to girls, and USUALLY, it applies to girls doing cute things ala K-ON!

The anime industry constantly create characters of stock archetypes that elicit the feeling of moe in their fan bases and profit off of it. This is where I think people who are not all that into moe become disillusioned. Instead of building actual characters, with realism and actual personality, you get these "moe characters" who may or may not have any further depth and whose sole purpose is often to just be that "moe girl."
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Old 2011-01-09, 23:42   Link #43
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All is fair in moe and war.
Make moe, not war.
Yea no one really understands what moe is until they actually experience it for themselves.

Sorry just couldn't resist, I'll let you guys get back to your discussion now lol
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Old 2011-01-10, 01:15   Link #44
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Which I think is pretty easy to do, but these criticisms are often ignored. For example one criticism I have of the idea of "moe" is that anime producers often supplant actual character building with common "moe traits.*" (* moe traits being common traits found in characters that elicit a feeling of moe in many of its viewers like tsundere for example).

Now I don't wish to bring up every moe anime in existence that has done this unless I have to, but it is a common problem. Sure you have animes like EF who don't, and actually make real characters (Probably why I highly value this as a romance no doubt), but it is a persistent problem I find in MANY shows, including the lauded trifectora of Air, Kanon, and Clannad.
I can see what you're talking about in the Key works. Personally, I really like Mai, Makoto and Shiori in Kanon, Minagi and Kanna in Air, and Kotomi and Kyou in Clannad. Especially Kotomi. I doubt you'd say most of them are well written and in a few cases I'd be hard pressed to disagree.

Truth be told, I think that the moe fandom has a bit of a preference for characters that are either "weird and zany" or "large than life". Just compare the sales of EF, Sola, True Tears, and Taisho Yakyuu Musume to those of the Key quartet (I include Angel Beats), Haruhi, Bakemonogatari, K-On!, Working, Railgun, and the later Nanoha seasons. I'm of two minds on this: on one hand I prefer the EF style of characterization, on the other hand, it's hard to imagine Bakemonogatari without Hitagi, Working without its misfits, Nanoha without the white devil, or Haruhi without Haruhi and Yuki. And Misaka actually is the best thing about Railgun, its a shame the show isn't as awesome as she is.

I also think its interesting to note the role of "mimetic humour" here. I find that the trend towards making the female tsundere who is sensitive about her flat chest as opposed to just a tsundere actually makes more sense if I think of the sensitivity about her boobs as mimetic humour rather than a moe point for the audience. Which of course doesn't make it any less excruciating.

I guess you could say I agree with the criticism but think certain nuances should be recognized.

(I should also note that I see Key's success as the result of a few more factors than just the characters but that a whole different topic.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Now realize that this is the same as people criticizing shonens for lack of female development, criticizing the mechas for lack of original concepts about war, saying that the comedies use the same techniques over and over again, or what have you. The difference being, that for some reason you see criticisms like these stick, while the ones about moe don't. Do the criticisms on moe reflect all shows with the concept of moe? No. Do the criticisms that each of these other genres or types of stories elicit reflect every show in their respective genre? No. That's why I find it frustrating personally.
Heh... well, I would never accuse the moe fandom of not being somewhat defensive. It's probably partly the result of being "the new kid on the block" compared to other genres. I'll also note that I'm personally a bit of a defensive person in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So yes, I understand that moe is a feeling, and that the viewer is supposed to feel moe about certain characters. The problem is there is a lack of specifics on what the feeling "moe" is. We know what we feel when we are horrified, we know what we feel when we are sad/depressed... What exactly is this feeling of "moe?"
I remember that in one moe debate, Vexx posted about who eastern cuisine has a taste that is entirely separate from the base tastes found in western cuisine, and posited that moe may also have no direct western equivalent.

Regardless of whether or not that's the case, I personally find that moe is much easier to understand after you've felt it for the first time. Makes my job difficult, I must admit.
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Old 2011-01-10, 14:44   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I remember that in one moe debate, Vexx posted about who eastern cuisine has a taste that is entirely separate from the base tastes found in western cuisine, and posited that moe may also have no direct western equivalent.

Regardless of whether or not that's the case, I personally find that moe is much easier to understand after you've felt it for the first time. Makes my job difficult, I must admit.
Isn't it more relevant to relate 'moe' to 'fear' than it is to relate it to 'horror'? The only reason we label 'moe' as a genre is because these anime incite the feeling of 'moe', and we have not yet created a 'genre term' per se for said anime.
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Old 2011-01-10, 20:46   Link #46
Triple_R
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I ran across the following suggested definition of moe on another anime board, and I think it might be a good one for practical purposes, and constructive discussion:


1. "Moe," an adjective describing a feeling. This is a warm, fuzzy feeling that might be described as "DAWWWWW!!" and have overtones of wanting to protect or comfort someone. In principle, this feeling can be directed at almost anyone.

2. "Moe," an adjective describing a character. This is a descriptor of a character that is either

a. known to elicit the aforementioned "moe" feeling in a wide variety of people, regardless of author intent, or
b. designed to elicit the "moe" feeling through the use of certain traits, such as cuteness of appearance and quirks that are supposed to be endearing (e.g. verbal tics).

3. "Moe," an adjective describing a genre. This is a descriptor of a show whose plot and character designs are primarily meant to elicit that "moe" feeling toward certain characters.



What I like about this above definition is that it recognizes that people can differ on what causes a moe feeling to arise in them ("moe" as an adjective describing a feeling) but also recognizes that, for practical discussion purposes, there are certain characters and character types that are more likely to be widely regarded as moe than other certain characters and character types ("moe" as an adjective describing a character).


That being said, this definition is very much a shorthand one, and my own understanding of moe may run deeper than it... but, all the same, I think that it might make for a good starting point, at least, for any discussion on moe between anime fans who like moe, and anime fans who don't like moe or are ambivalent towards it.
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Old 2011-01-10, 20:53   Link #47
DasDingus
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Now I don't wish to bring up every moe anime in existence that has done this unless I have to, but it is a common problem. Sure you have animes like EF who don't, and actually make real characters (Probably why I highly value this as a romance no doubt), but it is a persistent problem I find in MANY shows, including the lauded trifectora of Air, Kanon, and Clannad.
I feel like what you're describing here is more a case of adaptation decay than anything inherently wrong with shows that have many characters considered to be moe. I assume that your complaints about the key/kyoani shows, particularly clannad, are related mostly to the side characters since I found the characterization of the main characters to be quite good in those shows. In the source material the side characters were also well done (in my opinion).

My point is that I feel like the complaint is that being moe somehow causes bad characters whereas I think that, while the two are correlated, one does not cause the other. There is nothing wrong with a character being moe, however I feel that there is a perception that having moe elements makes a character/show bad when I would argue shoddy characterization and poor adaptations make characters or shows bad independent of their moe properties. My concern is that people feel like they shouldn't like something if it is moe rather than basing their opinions on the actual quality of the show.
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Old 2011-01-10, 21:21   Link #48
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Moe money, Moe problems! This post is so Moe! I am going to freakin moe myself. Cuz I am just to Moe for you! lol
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Old 2011-01-10, 21:28   Link #49
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I ran across the following suggestive definition of moe on another anime board, and I think it might be a good one for practical purposes, and constructive discussion:


1. "Moe," an adjective describing a feeling. This is a warm, fuzzy feeling that might be described as "DAWWWWW!!" and have overtones of wanting to protect or comfort someone. In principle, this feeling can be directed at almost anyone.

2. "Moe," an adjective describing a character. This is a descriptor of a character that is either

a. known to elicit the aforementioned "moe" feeling in a wide variety of people, regardless of author intent, or
b. designed to elicit the "moe" feeling through the use of certain traits, such as cuteness of appearance and quirks that are supposed to be endearing (e.g. verbal tics).

3. "Moe," an adjective describing a genre. This is a descriptor of a show whose plot and character designs are primarily meant to elicit that "moe" feeling toward certain characters.



What I like about this above definition is that it recognizes that people can differ on what causes a moe feeling to arise in them ("moe" as an adjective describing a feeling) but also recognizes that, for practical discussion purposes, there are certain characters and character types that are more likely to be widely regarded as moe than other certain characters and character types ("moe" as an adjective describing a character).


That being said, this definition is very much a shorthand one, and my own understanding of moe may run deeper than it... but, all the same, I think that it might make for a good starting point, at least, for any discussion on moe between anime fans who like moe, and anime fans who don't like moe or are ambivalent towards it.
I rather like this multi-part definition - it is what I was thinking earlier yesterday but couldn't quite put to a solid definition. Aye, its about as shallow as a dictionary definition, but its a LOT better than the crap that drips out of many crap "authoritative" nonsense. and damn, the cookie demons say its too early for a cookie for you.
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Old 2013-01-25, 14:36   Link #50
Kudryavka
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Moe and What it Means to Us

What does moe mean to you?

To mean it means seeing a character who I want to protect, love, and care for like a older brother or a daddy. Thats why I like it, I like seeing girls and boys with big eyes and cute round faces. Why? Because they look like babies. I love babies, I think theyre really super cute! I even spend hours on youtube looking at babies. Theyre so adorable

But anyway! I was reading articles on what moe means, and they say it has to do with a man feeling protection for a character b/c he or she looks like a baby. She has big watery eyes, super soft and fine hair, a round face, and a foreshortened distance between eyes and mouth.
http://moeticjustice.blogspot.com/20...explained.html
It makes total sense to me now, why I love moe so much. But there is also a sexual aspect to it as well. They say some moe fans like to see moe girls who are ready. I always thought that was weird, and now I know why. b/c I connect moe girls and boys to cute babies. To me, it makes the alarms go off in my head . But I know not everyone thinks about moe like me, so now I ask.

So I know there are diff ways to see the moe. What ways do you see the moe in?

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-01-25 at 14:53.
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Old 2013-01-25, 17:18   Link #51
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You might be interested in this thread. (Aside to Mods: I tried looking for it by searching for "moe" in the title, but I didn't get a single hit. Had to search by user; if I hadn't known about that thread beforehand, I probably wouldn't have found it. I think it's that the board software has trouble with three-letter-word searches; another board with the same software [though not necessarily version] didn't allow 3-letter searches at all.)

For me, moe is more about attitude and behaviour. There has to be some sort of spark, at least, if not a bushfire. I'm a cynic, and I like seeing people hold on to a more optimistic attitude. But it can't just be mindless or oblivious. There has to be a sense of awarenes, a sense of decision. So it's definitely not babies for me. It's more about a sense of loss, and trying to hold on to what's there, or regaining it. This can go in very different reactions: Tooru (A-channel), Yomura Kirika (Noir), Kuronoma Sawako (Kimi ni Todoke), Isurugi Noe (True Tears), Sawatari Fuu (Tamayura); all very different characters, but they give me - at heart - a comparable feeling.

It's got nothing to do with sex, nor has it anything to with wanting to protect. It's more like wanting to root for something I can't really believe in. It's like re-discovering my inner flame, even if only in fiction.
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Old 2013-01-25, 17:23   Link #52
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Moe is very broad.... Like the above post... Its character, attitude and gesture plus the perception of the audience on what Moe is for them.
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Old 2013-01-25, 17:27   Link #53
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
You might be interested in this thread. (Aside to Mods: I tried looking for it by searching for "moe" in the title, but I didn't get a single hit. Had to search by user; if I hadn't known about that thread beforehand, I probably wouldn't have found it. I think it's that the board software has trouble with three-letter-word searches; another board with the same software [though not necessarily version] didn't allow 3-letter searches at all.)

For me, moe is more about attitude and behaviour. There has to be some sort of spark, at least, if not a bushfire. I'm a cynic, and I like seeing people hold on to a more optimistic attitude. But it can't just be mindless or oblivious. There has to be a sense of awarenes, a sense of decision. So it's definitely not babies for me. It's more about a sense of loss, and trying to hold on to what's there, or regaining it. This can go in very different reactions: Tooru (A-channel), Yomura Kirika (Noir), Kuronoma Sawako (Kimi ni Todoke), Isurugi Noe (True Tears), Sawatari Fuu (Tamayura); all very different characters, but they give me - at heart - a comparable feeling.

It's got nothing to do with sex, nor has it anything to with wanting to protect. It's more like wanting to root for something I can't really believe in. It's like re-discovering my inner flame, even if only in fiction.
Yea, I searched first for "moe" threads too, but didnt get any hits.
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Moe is very broad.... Like the above post... Its character, attitude and gesture plus the perception of the audience on what Moe is for them.
Which is why I opened this thread. I wanna hear how moe affects others, we dont all feel moe the same.
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Old 2013-01-25, 17:42   Link #54
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I merged the new thread with this existing one, which seems to basically be about the same topic.

(I used Google with "site:forums.animesuki.com" in the query and that seems to do a great job. Maybe we should just get Google to power our searches? )
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:29   Link #55
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I'd point to the difference in the character of two current female leads, Chihaya in Chihayafuru and Kotoura in Kotoura-san, as representative of a non-moe and a moe character. Chihaya is strong-willed, even obsessive when it comes to the card game she plays called karuta. Despite her youth and physical beauty, she does not elicit from the viewer a desire to protect her. That isn't too surprising since she is the heroine of a josei manga, and now anime series, written by a woman primarily intended for an audience of older teen and young adult women.

Kotoura, in contrast, is drawn in the cute style with a wide face much like Hiro in Hidamari Sketch or Madoka in Madoka Magica. For reasons the story makes clear from the outset, she has been an outcast for much of her life. Those experiences helped her develop a strong personality, but she also elicits strong feelings of protectiveness in both the other characters and in the audience as well. This show is derived from a 4-koma comic strip that looks to be part of a shounen manga and thus intended for a male audience.

It is certainly possible to have both male and female moe characters, and a mix of moe and non-moe characters within the same show. Chihayafuru has two supporting characters, one of each gender, who might be seen as moe. Kotoura-san has female characters who definitely do not elicit a moe feeling. In Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, I'd classify the girl Mirai as not-moe, but her younger brother Yuuki definitely is.

Sometimes the style of drawing can matter even within a single show. The third episode of Noein, a show with a wide variety of episode directors, portrayed all the characters, males and females, in a softer and prettier style than most of the other episodes did. It became somewhat notorious as the "moe episode" of that series.
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:30   Link #56
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I merged the new thread with this existing one, which seems to basically be about the same topic.

(I used Google with "site:forums.animesuki.com" in the query and that seems to do a great job. Maybe we should just get Google to power our searches? )
Thanks relentless. I was thnking I wasnt the first with this idea.
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:32   Link #57
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A much easier question:

What is NOT moe?

1) Male characters
2) Old characters
3) Animals, exception of some animal-human hybrids

And more
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:34   Link #58
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
A much easier question:

What is NOT moe?

1) Male characters
2) Old characters
3) Animals, exception of some animal-human hybrids

And more
Well wait now, we're giving opinions here. I can find plenty of ppl who find males and complete non-humans moe.

I only feel moe for certain animals, like Fluttershy in the beginning of MLP.
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:53   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
A much easier question:

What is NOT moe?

1) Male characters
How about traps? Hideyoshi is Moe....

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Old 2013-01-25, 19:04   Link #60
Kudryavka
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How about traps? Hideyoshi is Moe....

Aw but I heard hes not actually a tranvestite, he just gets forced into girls clothes.
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