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Old 2013-01-24, 18:10   Link #31741
AuraTwilight
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My problem with Ikuko=random isn't that she was in the right place to save the protagonist (it's quite natural that our helpless amnesiac needs somebody to take care of him). It's that she's a lot more than that: I mean, what narrative purpose does it serve to have a person completely unrelated to the incident have her hands in writing about it? Battler doing it by himself would be fine. Why inject her as a factor?
Because if Ikuko is inherently connected to Rokkenjima her ability to understand Rokkenjima negates EP7's final message?

Because if Ikuko is inherently connected to Rokkenjima AND IS ALSO Toya's only emotional support and companion then he has no reason to have the Battler VS Toya identity crisis?

Because of Ikuko is inherently connected to Rokkenjima her negligence in taking care of Toya's proper emotional and psychological needs makes her an unequivocal monster that apparently gets an intellectual boner out of PTSDing an amnesiac cripple hobo?

Seriously come on. Leave Yasu some dignity, here.
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Old 2013-01-24, 19:28   Link #31742
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Which leads me to another matter: How did Battler get his "brain injury"? Well nothing speak against the possibility, that the reason Eva and Battler "seperated at some point" could be that she became too paranoid and then shot Battler, leaving a big injury, that was not immediate live-threatening though.

While this assumes Ikuko=Yasu again, I actually just try to make sense of EP7, escpacially "Kinzo's story", which seems very strange to me. Did we all of a sudden have a authorial narrator that "magically" speaks to the viewers? I think this would then be the FIRST TIME WE HAD AN AUTHORIAL NARRATOR in the whole of Umineko (aside from possibly the bit with after incident news reports or something like that, shortly before the scene, where Eva-in-deathbed and 1998 Ange were introduced). So of course I become sceptic? How did anyone in the post-Rokkenjima world get to know about Kinzo's past in the Rokkenjima-military base? Was Battler (and so by extension Tohya) was just told these things before Yasu died? (Which would be necessary for Ikuko=RandomStranger to work and seems very unlikely for me, but we had the message bottles written in 2-3 days, so I "wouldn't put it past R07"). Or did Yasu write it from what was told her by Genji etc. (If Ikuko=Yasu would be true).

Until now EP7 feels so disconnected from the story... was the content really just a "DEUS EX MACHINA authorial narrator", or was it just... "guessed" like this?

And since we had so many parallels between WizardBattler and Kinzo, could the scenes in the military base of Kinzo's past be a parallel to what happened in October 1986

Of course my premise could be wrong too (sudden authorial narrator being an "asspull"), that's why I would ask you: Did I get something wrong with my impression?
There are a lot of things that need inside knowledge to be true either most of Ep 7 is pure fantasy so either Battler sat down with Yasu in those 2 days and had an overload of info about Kinzo's past, Kuwadorian Beatrice's death (because I doubt Rosa went around spreading the info), Yasu falling from a cliff due to Natsuhi and most of Yasu's life. Not mentioning the truth about him being Kyrie's son (I'm hoping for this to be clarified in the manga since I know the manga talks about it but I can't read what they say... -_-) and Yasu having received a injury that made her body 'unable to love'.

Also we run into the novel problem. Since in Ep 3 & 4 (and probably 5) Yasu is the culprit and she's also Shannon and Kanon either:
- Tohya solved the two messages in the bottle although apparently there's no known solution of them (neither Ange nor the witch hunters seem to worry about Shannon/Kanon being the culprit in the messages and if the police checked if the writing matched with Shannon the fact is apparently unknown to the witch hunters)
- Banquet and Alliance as written by him were rather different and didn't involve Yasu being the culprit or Shannon and Kanon being the same
- Someone else helped to create the story in such a way that such solution would work with Tohya not realizing it

So yes, it's possible to make a theory that involves Tohya having extensive knowledge on Rokkenjima's most secret matters and a theory that allow Ep 3, 4 & 5 to have a Yasu culprit theory but if that's the solution I'm going to be disappointed.

Also, if Yasu knew what happened in Rokkenjima and she knew it was something bad (or example Kyrie having her 'kill everyone fun time') she might have thought Battler's amnesia was a blessing as he wouldn't have to remember bad stuffs and he wouldn't be questioned by the police.

Sure, it wasn't fair toward Ange or Battler but she might have thought it was better for Battler and that Ange wouldn't miss too much a stepbrother.

She could have also be scared the police would involve her and ALL her situation would come up.

And really, Yasu might not be as evil as to kill everyone but somehow I doubt she's a really nice, selfless person so I wouldn't be surprised if she said who cares about Ange? She'll get over it. Battler is happier without memory and I'm happier with Battler. Isn't this the miracle I was hoping for?
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:01   Link #31743
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There are a lot of things that need inside knowledge to be true either most of Ep 7 is pure fantasy so either Battler sat down with Yasu in those 2 days and had an overload of info about Kinzo's past, Kuwadorian Beatrice's death (because I doubt Rosa went around spreading the info), Yasu falling from a cliff due to Natsuhi and most of Yasu's life. Not mentioning the truth about him being Kyrie's son (I'm hoping for this to be clarified in the manga since I know the manga talks about it but I can't read what they say... -_-) and Yasu having received a injury that made her body 'unable to love'.
Well, that information could have simply come from nowhere. It's like the bank boxes if indeed Ange's meeting with Nanjo Jr. was just a catbox interpretation. It's either fantasy or it's accurate information with no apparent source. The Kinzo story is basically the same; the only people who could possibly have told the story are Kinzo, Beatrice C., and possibly Dr. Nanjo if they told him everything. And if Nanjo is the one who retold it to somebody at some point, we run into the further question of whether Kinzo and Beatrice would've misled him about anything.
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Old 2013-01-24, 22:27   Link #31744
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Battler is happier without memory and I'm happier with Battler. Isn't this the miracle I was hoping for?
But that is exactly the point some people here, including me, are alluding to when trying to say that this would make Yasu a horrible person. She does NOT leave Battler with the miracle and happiness of having become Touya. If she were Yasu she'd knowingly drag out the Rokkenjima story under the pretense of writing a story only to satisfy her own semi-sexual needs for him to recognize her.
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Old 2013-01-25, 00:40   Link #31745
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
To me, it seems to suggest that the EP8 ???? is not Prime, or perhaps that there isn't even a Prime at all. What do you think, everyone?
Personally, I think Featherine is just as much Ryukishi's mouthpiece as she is a Meta Ikuko+Tohya thing. So in that conversation to Ange, I think Ryukishi is literally apologizing to his character (Ange) for giving her such a crappy life, and promising to write a not-so-god-awful conclusion to her narrative.

I also interpret Featherine's relationship with Bern this way. Like, Bern was Featherine's miko in the sense that Rika was the protagonist of Higurashi, which was a huge success for R07, and he made her deal with a lot of crap, too.

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Who's to say he isn't? After all, Tohya and Young Kinzo have the same face, and Yasu is both gender-indeterminate and 75% Kinzo!
Indeed.

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Which dovetails off your theory of Amakusa/Kasumi/Okonogi being Yasu... Literally every person Ange has ever met after the Rokkenjima Incident has been Yasu. Eva? Yasu. The bodyguards? Yasu. Her schoolmates? All Yasu. Professor Ootsuki? Yasu (how else did he recognize the handwriting?). Ikuko? Yasu. Tohya? Yasu. The Maria delusion from reading her diary? Yasu. Ikuko's cat? Assuredly also Yasu.
Ah, this was my initial thought, but I couldn't get over Yasu posing as two people in the same room at the same time. At least, not without EP5-style "standing behind Godha" + rapid outfit changes shenanigans.

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I'm not sure yet but Ange may also be Yasu.
WOW.
WOW.
WOW.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Theoretically however we can assume that Ikuko is Yasu without Yasu being really a mastermind or something if we say that:
Firstly, none of this makes her NOT a terrible person. Just a terrible person who hadn't been planning things out way ahead of time, which isn't a necessary peg in me disliking her.

Secondly, man, that's a lot of hoops held by their bootstraps to jump through trying to make Ikuko=Yasu both not-a-murderer and sympathetic.

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Well, it's more that Rokkenjima is the entire world for Beato.
Shannon left it with George and had been always planning to leave it, first with Battler and then with George. Plus she didn't study on Rokkenjima meaning each time she went to school she left it.
If she were to truly leave Rokkenjima it would make sense, considering how she is, she would take on another 'personality/persona' who's not the servant Shannon but neither is the witch Beatrice and become Ikuko the sort of not very wanted child of a rich family.
I ... disagree? Going way back to forever ago, Shannon's dialogue about the fish in the aquarium seemed to be about herself, and the way she viewed the world, introducing this idea that Rokkenjima is literally all she knows. And it IS, kinda. Hell, "Shannon" is a construct based in Rokkenjima, a fake name that belongs to the kind of maid she aspires to be. Kanon is very similar, and going further than Shannon, literally has NO aspirations outside of ... outside of anything, really.

I have no doubt that she probably had genuine intentions to eventually leave the island, either with George, or (rather unlikely) with Battler, or just finally considering herself too old to continue in the same way, but Rokkenjima was pretty much her entire memorable life.

We're also told in Requiem that while she was friendly with a few kids at school, it was nothing Yasu really cared about, apparently, and we are told literally nothing, NOTHING about her school life other than a vague "well ... she went."

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Also... it's all a matter of believing.
So ... I ... should ignore the whole "kidnapping / mental torture to fulfill a adolescent infatuation" thing?
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Old 2013-01-25, 07:48   Link #31746
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I wonder if anyone's opinion about a Yasu-Ikuko would change if Battler was actually the culprit behind the murders? That would at least give Ikuko a reason for keeping Battler a secret, and might be a reason for Battler to want to stay secret too, if he was able to remember anything. Although I'm not sure how that would all work with their forgery writing...
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Old 2013-01-25, 09:13   Link #31747
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If you are not biased against the author-theory from the start then there are hints towards Ikuko (she IS the writer after all) in the EP1 endscroll already. It is very easy to retroactively write something into the plot and I admit that it was done less skillfully with Ikuko than with Hanyuu, but retcons they still are.
Of course Author Theory hints were quite clear from EP1, but the author of EP1 isn't Ikuko (well, according to what you believe), so I don't think the connection you're making is valid. At best you could link her to the concept of forgeries, which was introduced in EP4.

I'm not a fan of Hanyuu either, actually, for the same reason you aren't. I can't see Hanyuu as a retcon, though, since if you reread you can see her influence even in Onikakushi-hen. On the other hand, assuming Ikuko=random we have no idea when Ryukishi thought her up.

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What I dislike about any post-incident authorship theory is that it requires us to consider hints that are given to us as facts from 3rd party characters to be untrue without any apparent hint towards why they would be fabricated.
In Umineko, just the fact that a story is dubious on its own merits has consistently been hint enough for it to warrant incredulity. And aside from my own suspicions, I think Ange's befuddlement at the whole scenario is a valid reason to suspect the scenario presented to her isn't what it appeared to be. After all, Beatrice's legend in the post-1986 world arose from strange events very similarly to how Beatrice's legend on pre-1986 Rokkenjima did.

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Police reports are said to have dated the letters in the bottle to a date shortly before or during October 4th-5th 1986.
I don't remember that. Could you provide a citation?

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If the ???? does not depict any "Prime" then there truly might not be a prime universe at all, which basically puts all our musing about "what actually happened" at rest. We can concentrate on solving the mysteries of each world separately and any unifying element is simply fabrication by an author we can never truly be sure about.
Well, I'm not so sure about that. There is one unifying event that connects all of Ange's realities, and that is her making a decision to jump or not to jump from the skyscraper. I think that that moment can easily be something that exists in Prime without the EP8 ???? actually representing Prime. Basically, the knowable story ends at that point in time, and Ange's future is a cat box.

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Well aside from all these reasons, I am not really saying that Ikuko must really be Yasu. The scenario that she "recreated Yasu in her own image" would be possible too, which would however mean that we NEVER see the real Yasu (aside from Legend and Turn) and that Yasu was merely a "self-insert" by Ikuko.
This idea sits better with me than the default.

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Which leads me to another matter: How did Battler get his "brain injury"?
Was it ever called a "brain injury"? I've only ever read the EP8 ???? in Japanese, and IIRC it was only ever referred to as a "memory defect" or something like that. It always came off as psychological to me.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
While this assumes Ikuko=Yasu again, I actually just try to make sense of EP7, escpacially "Kinzo's story", which seems very strange to me. Did we all of a sudden have a authorial narrator that "magically" speaks to the viewers? I think this would then be the FIRST TIME WE HAD AN AUTHORIAL NARRATOR in the whole of Umineko (aside from possibly the bit with after incident news reports or something like that, shortly before the scene, where Eva-in-deathbed and 1998 Ange were introduced). So of course I become sceptic? How did anyone in the post-Rokkenjima world get to know about Kinzo's past in the Rokkenjima-military base? Was Battler (and so by extension Tohya) was just told these things before Yasu died? (Which would be necessary for Ikuko=RandomStranger to work and seems very unlikely for me, but we had the message bottles written in 2-3 days, so I "wouldn't put it past R07"). Or did Yasu write it from what was told her by Genji etc. (If Ikuko=Yasu would be true).
Well, from the standpoint of the meta-narrative, it was Theatergoing Authority that allowed for the authorial narrator you speak of. In fact, I would argue that everything in Requiem that was "unlocked" by Theatergoing Authority was information that likely only Yasu could know (especially Yasu's own very detailed and explanatory first person story). That this information could make it to the meta-world I see as strong evidence for Yasu's continued existence. And that it's "Theatergoing Authority" by which this information is distributed connects Yasu to Ikuko.

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There are a lot of things that need inside knowledge to be true either most of Ep 7 is pure fantasy so either Battler sat down with Yasu in those 2 days and had an overload of info about Kinzo's past, Kuwadorian Beatrice's death (because I doubt Rosa went around spreading the info), Yasu falling from a cliff due to Natsuhi and most of Yasu's life. Not mentioning the truth about him being Kyrie's son (I'm hoping for this to be clarified in the manga since I know the manga talks about it but I can't read what they say... -_-) and Yasu having received a injury that made her body 'unable to love'.
And let's not forget Jessica's late-night scare in the VIP room, and all those details about how Maria and Beatrice became friends.

I think most people just chalk EP7 up as inexplicable magic meta-bullshit that's completely unrelated to anything that happens in the real world, existing solely to give the audience answers (meanwhile the Tea Party's existence is not unrelated to the real world at all). I don't like this viewpoint. I'm very inclined to view the events of the meta-world to be symbolic of events that happen in the real world. Otherwise, why should we even care about the meta-world? That being said, I think Will, being both well-versed in, yet unrelated to, Rokkenjima and trapped in a situation where he is forced to solve the stories... fits Touya's profile quite well.

I get tired of people saying that Ikuko=Yasu is just for people who want "that kind of ending". I can't speak for other supporters of the idea, but for me it has a lot more to do with its explanatory power over the meta-world than anything else.

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If she were Yasu she'd knowingly drag out the Rokkenjima story under the pretense of writing a story only to satisfy her own semi-sexual needs for him to recognize her.
You say "only", but romantic/sexual acknowledgement is one of our most primal desires as human beings. Not having it leaves a profound lack of fulfillment. And we're talking about Yasu here; no one has a stronger love complex than she does.
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Old 2013-01-25, 09:48   Link #31748
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You say "only", but romantic/sexual acknowledgement is one of our most primal desires as human beings. Not having it leaves a profound lack of fulfillment. And we're talking about Yasu here; no one has a stronger love complex than she does.
It's not that she would want it that bothers people. It's that she's tormenting Tohya to get it, and he's not Battler and has nothing to do with Battler other than having the same physical body. He was essentially "born" the moment Battler forgot everything. Messing with him to try to win his affections or worse, bring Battler back, is somewhere between psychological torture and attempted murder.

At least in the instance of a Random!Ikuko, you're dealing with a person whose primary focus is Tohya himself, with Battler's existence being at best a curiosity. To a Yasu!Ikuko, Tohya is not the most important person in the relationship, Battler is. Tohya's existence will always be a third wheel to such a person. While it doesn't exactly make Ikuko a saint, it at least excuses some of her actions, while the alternative is some David Lynch-ass shit.
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Old 2013-01-25, 10:36   Link #31749
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Was it ever called a "brain injury"? I've only ever read the EP8 ???? in Japanese, and IIRC it was only ever referred to as a "memory defect" or something like that. It always came off as psychological to me.
I am very sure "brain injury" was given as the reason for Tohya being in a wheelchair. Of course this could just be a translation error, but I am sure it was worded like this in the witch hunt translation.
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Old 2013-01-25, 11:11   Link #31750
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I wonder if anyone's opinion about a Yasu-Ikuko would change if Battler was actually the culprit behind the murders? That would at least give Ikuko a reason for keeping Battler a secret, and might be a reason for Battler to want to stay secret too, if he was able to remember anything. Although I'm not sure how that would all work with their forgery writing...
I dont think it would work, since Ikuko would be trying to prevent Battler from coming back instead of coaxing it out by encouraging him to write the forgeries.

As for the whole issue of Ikuko being Yasu though, I'd like it if she was the actual culprit. Just straight up batshit insane killed everyone, Battler lost his mind and she took him to try and make him accept her. Battler suffering from severe PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome. All the talk about tsundere was a red herring, Yasu was always yandere.

The idea that she wasn't the culprit and became the lynch pin on the issue fits better if she had actually died. Having her alive, actually remember everything and actively trying to pursue a relationship with the person that was Battler seems extremely creepy. Something a mentally unstable person would do. Which I guess is entirely possible given who we are talking about.
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Old 2013-01-25, 12:48   Link #31751
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Maybe Ikuko thought she was doing Tohya a favor by trying to get him to 'become Battler again'? I don't doubt that if Yasu is Ikuko, she's acting for her own gain, but perhaps she thought it was best if Battler regain his memories. It could have been an honest intention at first; I don't think she could have known what it would do to him.

...Well, then again, she should have stopped after his recollections drove him to attempt suicide.
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Old 2013-01-25, 12:58   Link #31752
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I am very sure "brain injury" was given as the reason for Tohya being in a wheelchair. Of course this could just be a translation error, but I am sure it was worded like this in the witch hunt translation.
No, Tohya ended in a wheelchair later, when he had a fit about something he remembered (or something like that) and injured himself.

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Well, that information could have simply come from nowhere. It's like the bank boxes if indeed Ange's meeting with Nanjo Jr. was just a catbox interpretation. It's either fantasy or it's accurate information with no apparent source. The Kinzo story is basically the same; the only people who could possibly have told the story are Kinzo, Beatrice C., and possibly Dr. Nanjo if they told him everything. And if Nanjo is the one who retold it to somebody at some point, we run into the further question of whether Kinzo and Beatrice would've misled him about anything.
If Ep 7 is fantasy... well we'll give fuel to the people that dismiss EP 7 as an author's deception.

If the info is true but came out of nowhere... it's poor writing as far as I'm involved.

Genji could also know Kinzo's story and he could have told Yasu about it, same with Nanjo and Kumasawa might have added other parts to the story.
It's likely Yasu made questions after finding out who was her dad.
Plus she could have heard gossips and Kinzo rambling about his past.

The problem is passing all those info to Battler so that he could place them in his tales. It should have taken time.

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But that is exactly the point some people here, including me, are alluding to when trying to say that this would make Yasu a horrible person. She does NOT leave Battler with the miracle and happiness of having become Touya. If she were Yasu she'd knowingly drag out the Rokkenjima story under the pretense of writing a story only to satisfy her own semi-sexual needs for him to recognize her.
It could have been coincidental as it was Battler who caught her looking at the info on Rokkenjima and began remembering things. It could have been a slip of tongue, confidence in the idea he wouldn't remember a change of mind as she thought maybe it was bad if he didn't remember.
At the beginning maybe he wasn't so scared, just intrigued and could have developed an interest in Rokkenjima due to it and she could have supported him thinking it could have been equally nice if he were to remember... and only later, when Tohya started being scared by his own memories she might have realized her mistake.

Honestly, I tend to think if Yasu is anything like Beatrice she probably isn't good at judging what can hurt a person. It makes her dense, not evil.

And anyway we're speculating on something over which we know too little.

Once Ryukishi said we had a poor opinion of Kinzo due to what he did to his daughter but we didn't really know how things in Kuwadorian were and, in a way, all the hints about life in Kuwadorian might come from sources who're biased.

Maybe it was Kuwadorian Beato who seduced Kinzo but no one could picture her doing this so they passed the story placing the blame on Kinzo (I'm not going to believe Kinzo is innocent though but maybe he didn't force Beato as much as it looks... though he's still to blame for keeping her trapped there)

With Ikuko the problem is even bigger as there's basically nearly no story passed.
We've a summary of what went on given by Tohya in which we don't know if we can't believe and in which, although he admit he suspected Ikuko for being responsible for his incident, he never blamed her for anything else.

He didn't accuse her of keeping him trapped not of mentally toying with him.
Sure, she covered up the fact she found and helped him but, apparently, Battler could leave when he wanted. It's possible she lied to him, saying 'oh, I told the police to search if you've a family' but we've no info about this.

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Secondly, man, that's a lot of hoops held by their bootstraps to jump through trying to make Ikuko=Yasu both not-a-murderer and sympathetic.
Well, a popular theory is that she didn't murder anyone on PrimeRokkenjima so why now it should be weird I come up with a theory in which she didn't?

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I ... disagree? Going way back to forever ago, Shannon's dialogue about the fish in the aquarium seemed to be about herself, and the way she viewed the world, introducing this idea that Rokkenjima is literally all she knows. And it IS, kinda. Hell, "Shannon" is a construct based in Rokkenjima, a fake name that belongs to the kind of maid she aspires to be. Kanon is very similar, and going further than Shannon, literally has NO aspirations outside of ... outside of anything, really.

I have no doubt that she probably had genuine intentions to eventually leave the island, either with George, or (rather unlikely) with Battler, or just finally considering herself too old to continue in the same way, but Rokkenjima was pretty much her entire memorable life.

We're also told in Requiem that while she was friendly with a few kids at school, it was nothing Yasu really cared about, apparently, and we are told literally nothing, NOTHING about her school life other than a vague "well ... she went."
Likely Shannon is like Beato. She's created to exist on Rokkenjima as 'perfect servant'.
The problem here is: is Yasu also tied to Rokkenjima?
While Shannon's wish to leave Rokkenjima might be more an imposition from George, Yasu came up on her own with the idea to leave it when she was a child and talking with Battler.

Though probably to leave Rokkenjima Yasu would have to destroy her 'witch of Rokkenjima' identity as well as her 'perfect maid of the Ushiromiya' identity.

Anyway this is just speculation. We cannnot prove Yasu would be unable to leave and assume another identity. We cannot prove how much of Shannon there's in Yasu and vice versa. After all Yasu, Kanon and Shannon all have different love interests so they are definitely different even in matters that can be important.

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So ... I ... should ignore the whole "kidnapping / mental torture to fulfill a adolescent infatuation" thing?
To kidnap someone you should force someone to stay in a place against his own will.
Battler/Tohya isn't forced to stay with Ikuko against his own will.
He defines himself as satisfied with his life.
And he probably wrote Banquet, Alliance and End (and maybe Dawn) of his own will. And she didn't look like she was having fun when he was in pain.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:18   Link #31753
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Maybe Ikuko thought she was doing Tohya a favor by trying to get him to 'become Battler again'? I don't doubt that if Yasu is Ikuko, she's acting for her own gain, but perhaps she thought it was best if Battler regain his memories. It could have been an honest intention at first; I don't think she could have known what it would do to him.

...Well, then again, she should have stopped after his recollections drove him to attempt suicide.
Do we know when that happened, forgery-wise? I mean, if it happened after the writing of EP4, then Meta-Beatrice ceasing to be the author implies that she might not have been involved in it anymore.

It would be kind of interesting if Meta-Battler's "death" and subsequent soul-searching during the trial in EP5 corresponded to the suicide attempt.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:34   Link #31754
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
No, Tohya ended in a wheelchair later, when he had a fit about something he remembered (or something like that) and injured himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP8
`"......The body is in a very frail condition.`@` Also, it is probable that there will be memory defects.`@` We won't know for sure until the CT scan, but brain damage is also a possibility."`\

[...]

`"......Miss Kotobuki.`@` ......As I said before, ......his memory has been damaged.`@` No, perhaps I should say that his brain has been damaged.`@` It's an aftereffect of the accident."`\
"brain damage" sounds like something physical. And yes, I know the wheelchair came later on, and that it was either an "aftereffect of the accident" (does this refer to the "car accident" or to the "rokkenjima accident"?) or the brain surgery.


---

After looking through the script i saw that Battler was "sleeping on the public highway". How did he get there? It sounds strange that the place he passed out on is a highway...

So if Battler really escaped alone:
He would have to be in a state where he has no bigger problems to move around but was about to collapse any moment. And he would also have gotten, either by the car incident or by something that happened on Rokkenjima, a "brain damage".

The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling, that aside from which theory may be right after all, that R07 was just lazy and didn't take his time for the Tohya/Battler backstory at all.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:39   Link #31755
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Um clearly Battler suffered a brain injury in 1986 which gave him chronic narcolepsy, which is why he keeps passing out in dangerous or inopportune places and also explains why Featherine enjoys sleeping so much (because Tohya can't stay awake if he isn't being physically or mentally active).
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Old 2013-01-25, 14:58   Link #31756
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
"brain damage" sounds like something physical. And yes, I know the wheelchair came later on, and that it was either an "aftereffect of the accident" (does this refer to the "car accident" or to the "rokkenjima accident"?) or the brain surgery.
Well, the brain can be damaged even without involving a physical incident, for example if it stays for a long time without air, if the person abuses in drugs, in some cases even a psychological trauma caused the brain to react as if the trauma was physical.

I guess the test is deliberately vague... though the doctor have an excuse.
If he thinks Tohya was involved in a car incident he's automatically going to blame it for Tohya's damage even if the cause was... let's say someone slamming some gold from Kinzo's collection on his head.

As for the wheelchair:

Quote:
`"But...nothing worked. ......I am me, ...Hachijo Tohya. ......No matter how much Ushiromiya Battler's memories flow into my mind. ......To me, they're the memories of another person. .........I couldn't accept Ushiromiya Battler........."`\
`......As 'Ushiromiya Battler' said this, ......he hung his head as his eyes turned red.`\
`".........Then, one day, when he was caught between himself and the other self he couldn't accept, he had a fit............"`
`"........................"`\
`"Fortunately, his life was spared, but the aftereffects forced him to spend his life in a wheelchair..."`
So no, the Rokkenjima incident wasn't involved. Battler got himself in another 'incident' later on (that or he tried committing suicide, maybe tossing himself down of a building which would match why he was so worried Ange would jump off of one)

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
After looking through the script i saw that Battler was "sleeping on the public highway". How did he get there? It sounds strange that the place he passed out on is a highway...
I think Tohya's backstory is so fuzzy it allows way too many speculations. We can assume:

- Tohya was confuse or delirious so actually his whole meeting with Ikuko was different and Ikuko lied over it.
- Battler was trying to reach some place to ask for help but it was raining and maybe was late and he didn't realize a car was coming. He was hit by a car and later he's found by Ikuko.
- Battler was under shock so he walked without aim and ended up there where a car hit him. Later he's found by Ikuko.
- He was actually hit by Ikuko. She however was afraid of consequences and that's why she bribed the doctor to keep silent. Since she still feel guilty she also helped Battler. Also she had her car repaired so when Battler looked at it he couldn't see any damage.
- Battler was never hit by a car. He managed to escape from Rokkenjima but he was injuried and ended up fainting. When Ikuko found him on the highway she assumed he'd been run over by a car because it seemed the easier explanation.
- Battler escaped by Rokkenjima just fine but when he reached land and tried to ask for help he was attacked by street tugs and injured or forced to escape until he got hit by a car...

and we can go on and on.

We can even assume that actually the incident happened years later the Rokkenjima incident and that prior to it Battler was hiding for unknown reasons (he believed Eva was the killer, he was afraid since his parents were the killers he would be considered an accomplice as well, the whole thing shocked him so much it nearly drove him to madness so he began living on the streets, Yasu really kidnapped him and began living as Ikuko then, when he tried to escape he was so lucky he ended up being hit by a car/her car and lose his memory and so on) as he says he believed to be 18 yet this didn't sit well with him as he didn't feel 18 (which can of course be a mere feeling and not the truth... but it allows us to speculate if it's supposed to be a hint).

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
So if Battler really escaped alone:
He would have to be in a state where he has no bigger problems to move around but was about to collapse any moment. And he would also have gotten, either by the car incident or by something that happened on Rokkenjima, a "brain damage".
Yes and no. It depends by the type of injury and also by how much adrenaline he had in his body (I guess a lot).
People can even walk away from an incident apparently just fine then die hours later because actually there was brain damage and it became fatal with time.

It really depends on the damage he reported. Also, if the damage was psychological the body would have been just fine but the brain might have been unable to realize where he was heading or that a car was about to hit him.

Really, it's all too vague to make assumptions about what was Battler doing on a highway in a rainy day/night (maybe night as Battler at first was able to see only Ikuko's car's lights)...


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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling, that aside from which theory may be right after all, that R07 was just lazy and didn't take his time for the Tohya/Battler backstory at all.
Personally, more than being lazy, I think Ryukishi simply didn't want to write it.
There were ways to make his backstory look more like the truth than something so... blurry but he purposely let it blurry.

My feeling is that, like what happened in Rokkenjima Prime, he simply didn't want to give us a clear idea of what had happened to Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Um clearly Battler suffered a brain injury in 1986 which gave him chronic narcolepsy, which is why he keeps passing out in dangerous or inopportune places and also explains why Featherine enjoys sleeping so much (because Tohya can't stay awake if he isn't being physically or mentally active).
LOL, as fun as picturing this can be this is also a theory that work and could even count on hints.

Really, the whole Rokkenjima Prime is too vague. It allows us to endless speculations.
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Old 2013-01-25, 17:53   Link #31757
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It could have been coincidental as it was Battler who caught her looking at the info on Rokkenjima and began remembering things. It could have been a slip of tongue, confidence in the idea he wouldn't remember a change of mind as she thought maybe it was bad if he didn't remember.
At the beginning maybe he wasn't so scared, just intrigued and could have developed an interest in Rokkenjima due to it and she could have supported him thinking it could have been equally nice if he were to remember... and only later, when Tohya started being scared by his own memories she might have realized her mistake.
Again, a lot of "maybe", "perhaps", "could have been"'s going on here. I have a hard time going with any of this, especially since we have an entire chapter about their time together that suggests nothing of the sort.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Honestly, I tend to think if Yasu is anything like Beatrice she probably isn't good at judging what can hurt a person. It makes her dense, not evil.
But ... all those times Beatrice was extreeeemely good at judging what would hurt a person..?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Maybe it was Kuwadorian Beato who seduced Kinzo but no one could picture her doing this so they passed the story placing the blame on Kinzo (I'm not going to believe Kinzo is innocent though but maybe he didn't force Beato as much as it looks... though he's still to blame for keeping her trapped there)
Is it even your serious opinion? How are you so quick to dismiss all the stuff directly contrary to that?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
With Ikuko the problem is even bigger as there's basically nearly no story passed.
We've a summary of what went on given by Tohya in which we don't know if we can't believe and in which, although he admit he suspected Ikuko for being responsible for his incident, he never blamed her for anything else.

He didn't accuse her of keeping him trapped not of mentally toying with him.
Sure, she covered up the fact she found and helped him but, apparently, Battler could leave when he wanted. It's possible she lied to him, saying 'oh, I told the police to search if you've a family' but we've no info about this.
By that logic, I could just as well say Tohya's lying about not suspecting her, and has a complex plan to murder her, make it look like a tragic car accident, and keep all her money. He's colluding with that off-screen maid we saw that one time in their house.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, a popular theory is that she didn't murder anyone on PrimeRokkenjima so why now it should be weird I come up with a theory in which she didn't?
Yeah, I guess that's fair. My apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Likely Shannon is like Beato. She's created to exist on Rokkenjima as 'perfect servant'.
The problem here is: is Yasu also tied to Rokkenjima?
While Shannon's wish to leave Rokkenjima might be more an imposition from George, Yasu came up on her own with the idea to leave it when she was a child and talking with Battler.

Though probably to leave Rokkenjima Yasu would have to destroy her 'witch of Rokkenjima' identity as well as her 'perfect maid of the Ushiromiya' identity.

Anyway this is just speculation. We cannnot prove Yasu would be unable to leave and assume another identity. We cannot prove how much of Shannon there's in Yasu and vice versa. After all Yasu, Kanon and Shannon all have different love interests so they are definitely different even in matters that can be important.
Okay, so, I'm not saying Kanon / Shannon / Beatrice are all the same and have to behave the exact same way to things. I'm also not saying it's utterly impossible that Yasu could use the lol-gold and go live some new, merry life. However, Shannon had obviously considered the possibility of living with George before 1986, so how is George's invitation any functionally different from Battler's invitation? Oh, yeah, "she was only her 'Shannon' self for George", except whoa, popular speculation is that she totes told him her real name when he asked, which he prefers to use. Of course "perfect maid" self can't leave Rokkenjima, she wouldn't be a freakin' maid anymore, she'd just become "Battler's bestie/love interest?" self or "George's fiancee" self. I'm not arguing that Yasu is incapable of leaving Rokkenjima, just that every facet of her life, at least up until 1986, is explicitly tied to it...



Quote:
To kidnap someone you should force someone to stay in a place against his own will.
Battler/Tohya isn't forced to stay with Ikuko against his own will.
He defines himself as satisfied with his life.
And he probably wrote Banquet, Alliance and End (and maybe Dawn) of his own will. And she didn't look like she was having fun when he was in pain.
Well, I'd say kidnapping can also be defined using fraud, rather than physical force. I mean, Beato II didn't really object to her mansion and tea, either, and I'm sure Kinzo wasn't pleased when she got hurt or anything. And we're literally TOLD that he wrote Banquet, etc. Well, Ikuko wrote them, but Tohya did the plotting.

Also, the difference between Random=Ikuko and Yasu=Ikuko is like ... like between adopting a cat you see on the street, and taking your neighbors cat that happened to be on the street. The action is the same, and you can treat the cat very gently and it may looooove living with you, but the context of the prior relationship carries some weight, y'know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the brain can be damaged even without involving a physical incident, for example if it stays for a long time without air, if the person abuses in drugs, in some cases even a psychological trauma caused the brain to react as if the trauma was physical.
It's true that psychological trauma can cause some problems, but "going without air" or "drug abuse" are VERY physical things affecting the brain... Tohya and Ikuko themselves offer that they weren't sure if the physical trauma came from the possiblw drowning, or the possible car-collision. I tend to go for "time spent drowning", myself.

[QUOTE=jjblue1;4527547]Personally, more than being lazy, I think Ryukishi simply didn't want to write it.
There were ways to make his backstory look more like the truth than something so... blurry but he purposely let it blurry.

My feeling is that, like what happened in Rokkenjima Prime, he simply didn't want to give us a clear idea of what had happened to Battler.[.quote]
I can agree with this ... though if that's how he felt about it, I think it'd have been better to just have Tohya show up in the EP8 ???.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Really, the whole Rokkenjima Prime is too vague. It allows us to endless speculations.
I guess this is what gets me with your argument, the most - you don't trust ANYTHING in the plot as given. Maybe Jessica was a time traveler from the future who spent most of her efforts keeping her parents from divorcing, unknowing that it was their continued marriage that led to the whole "hiding Kinzo's death" and "island explodes" thing. Perhaps Eva was actually desperately broke for the rest of her life, Ange only attended St.Lucia on a scholarship, and Kasumi wanted to kill her "because you look like Kyrie and killing you is as close as I can get." Maaaaaybe George was a charmiing, beautiful model who, contrary to his nice-guy-syndrome rants, was bedding flat chested loli's left. And. Right.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I wonder if anyone's opinion about a Yasu-Ikuko would change if Battler was actually the culprit behind the murders? That would at least give Ikuko a reason for keeping Battler a secret, and might be a reason for Battler to want to stay secret too, if he was able to remember anything. Although I'm not sure how that would all work with their forgery writing...
Such a thing would change my opinion on the matter, sure, but it would make the forgeries, and Beato's motives really, really strange.
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:38   Link #31758
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Of course Author Theory hints were quite clear from EP1, but the author of EP1 isn't Ikuko (well, according to what you believe), so I don't think the connection you're making is valid. At best you could link her to the concept of forgeries, which was introduced in EP4.
No, technically, if you count footsteps and mysterious things that go bump in the night as hints towards Hanyuu, the concept of forgeries was introduced in EP1 as well, as well as the presence of people who were later to be termed Witch Hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP1 Endroll
After this the incident became known as “The Rokkenjima Mass Murder Incident” or “The Killing of the 18 on Rokkenjima”, but among the people with a taste for the fantastic in this world it was passed on as “The Witch Legend Serial Murder Case”.

Lovers of the occult, insisting on it being the remains of this island being plunged into an immoral ritual, kept propagating explanations of these mystery-filled two days, adorning them with grotesque imageries.
But, no matter what explanation it was, not one of them arrived at the truth of this incident.
Quote:
I can't see Hanyuu as a retcon, though, since if you reread you can see her influence even in Onikakushi-hen. On the other hand, assuming Ikuko=random we have no idea when Ryukishi thought her up.
Well, she is a retcon in the sense of retroactive continuity. Her name is not brought up until Meakashi and though hints towards A presence accompanying Roka are present before, she is not given a form till Minagoroshi. So technically it is the same as Umineko dropping hints about "people who loved mysteries and the occult", "writers who took inspiration from the incident", "Witch Hunters who are very invested". You can either see it as preparing the stage, or leaving narrative space to fill in information later. The exact moment when Hanyuu (in the shape we get to see her) was thought up could also be any point between the first planning stage and her first appearance.

Quote:
I don't remember that. Could you provide a citation?
I can't give an exact citation right now, because I haven't got the game with me, but it should be during the conversation between Ange and Ootsuki in Episode 4.
If somebody could be so kind looking through that part of the script, it'd help immensely.

Quote:
Well, from the standpoint of the meta-narrative, it was Theatergoing Authority that allowed for the authorial narrator you speak of. In fact, I would argue that everything in Requiem that was "unlocked" by Theatergoing Authority was information that likely only Yasu could know (especially Yasu's own very detailed and explanatory first person story). That this information could make it to the meta-world I see as strong evidence for Yasu's continued existence. And that it's "Theatergoing Authority" by which this information is distributed connects Yasu to Ikuko.
As we learned from several TIPs, for example Notes of a Certain Witch Hunter, Beatrice's catbox is not a perfect locked room in itself. Information will leak out, we merely lack the ability of the red truth to confirm them beyond any doubt or suspicion.

Concerning that I find it interesting on the other hand how many people ignore what the actual meta-plotline of Requiem is. This is not a story presented by Ikuko/Touya/Featherine, this is a preparation of pieces presented TO Featherine by Bernkastel.
I would agree that EP7 can be inserted into real life events as well, but I would rather assume it to be the general collection of evidence. It is important that the acting characters are NOT the usual cast after all.
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Old 2013-01-25, 18:40   Link #31759
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Maaaaaybe George was a charmiing, beautiful model who, contrary to his nice-guy-syndrome rants, was bedding flat chested loli's left. And. Right.
Would explain a lot. Like, how he was infatuated with Shannon when she was supposedly 10. Or maybe he knows all about her and the fake breasts are a turn-on.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2013-01-25 at 19:29.
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Old 2013-01-25, 21:55   Link #31760
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Again, a lot of "maybe", "perhaps", "could have been"'s going on here.
As Umineko doesn't tell me what exactly happen all I can do is speculate.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I have a hard time going with any of this, especially since we have an entire chapter about their time together that suggests nothing of the sort.
I'm not sure what you mean. We know Ikuko mentioned Rokkenjima to Tohya but we've not the scene about how it went.
Then we know Tohya woke up and found Ikuko reading on the pc some info on Rokkenjima and he started remembering something.
We also know he wrote at least 3/6 books, some of which apparently before Ange disappeared.

We never know what's going on in Ikuko's mind.

When Ange sees Battler he doesn't look like he is in a bad relation with Ikuko.

We don't know why she happened to mention Rokkenjima the first time, although apparently Tohya wasn't affected by it at all but in the second it seems entirely casual Tohya discovers her at the pc and he's the one showing interest in what she was looking at. When she explains and he starts showing signs of distress she stops.

So where do you see evidence in how she purposely tortured Battler with it?

She even offered him to have brain surgery earlier to stop his headaches and she even supported the idea he should met Ange when Ange asked to met him.
Tohya even went to various hospitals.

If we can claim Ikuko's behaviour toward him wasn't correct as she tried to keep the incident hidden, well, apparently afterward she tried to redeem herself by offering him medical care and trying to help him to reunite with his family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But ... all those times Beatrice was extreeeemely good at judging what would hurt a person..?
Beatrice apparently couldn't understand that her games were hurting Battler. Evidently she's not so good at figuring things out. I'm not saying she's completely oblivious just that sometimes she fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Is it even your serious opinion? How are you so quick to dismiss all the stuff directly contrary to that?
Maybe I've explained myself poorly.
It's OBVIOUS that in the games Kinzo took advantage of Kuwadorian Beato and that she wasn't interested in him as a man, that she suffered at being trapped there. We can't be sure the same happened in Prime as who's telling us the story isn't Kuwadorian Beato but, at best, someone who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else (Tohya who heard it from Yasu who heard it by the servants... if the servants felt like telling her that her father abused/took advantage of her mother... if they didn't it becomes entirely Yasu's speculation).

Kuwadorian Beato's true feelings are a catbox. Personally I think that Kinzo took advantage of her even in Prime but the point is we can't prove that what happened in the games happened in Prime as well.
So what I think is just my theory of a truth of the game applying in Prime as well.

Is this any clearer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
By that logic, I could just as well say Tohya's lying about not suspecting her, and has a complex plan to murder her, make it look like a tragic car accident, and keep all her money. He's colluding with that off-screen maid we saw that one time in their house.
Of course you could. However since apparently they lived together for decades it's either he never had a chance to put in act his plan, is going really slow in making it in act, he has dropped it time ago or he has just made it up.

Said this, I wouldn't believe in a theory that see Tohya as planning Ikuko's murder but this doesn't make your theory something I can deny with the elements at hand.
Same as in Ep 5 it's possible to make a Battler culprit theory, a revised Natsuhi culprit theory (erika's theory was accepted after it got revised) and a Yasu culprit theory (and maybe there's also a Rosa or George culprit theory? I've no idea what Knownomore says about Ep 5).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
However, Shannon had obviously considered the possibility of living with George before 1986, so how is George's invitation any functionally different from Battler's invitation? Oh, yeah, "she was only her 'Shannon' self for George", except whoa, popular speculation is that she totes told him her real name when he asked, which he prefers to use. Of course "perfect maid" self can't leave Rokkenjima, she wouldn't be a freakin' maid anymore, she'd just become "Battler's bestie/love interest?" self or "George's fiancee" self. I'm not arguing that Yasu is incapable of leaving Rokkenjima, just that every facet of her life, at least up until 1986, is explicitly tied to it...
We know that things would have gone differently if Battler wouldn't have returned but that something mysterious would have happened anyway. So either:
- Shannon would kill herself and with her death Kanon would disappear
- Shannon would leave with George and with this Kanon would disappear (implied by the love duel)
- Shannon would leave without George and with her Kanon (or she would leave alone and Kanon would disappear).

So theoretically PieceShannon too could and would leave if certain conditions were met.

So why should we assume Prime Yasu wouldn't be capable to do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, I'd say kidnapping can also be defined using fraud, rather than physical force. I mean, Beato II didn't really object to her mansion and tea, either, and I'm sure Kinzo wasn't pleased when she got hurt or anything.
As far as we know Beato is never offered the possibility to leave though. She's closed in a house and told that there are wolves out there. she never know anything of the outside world and she always remained so close to the house she never noticed she could leave through the hole in the fence (or wolves would get in).

When Tohya became an author he likely had money enough to rent an appartment. He was allowed to meet outside people, doctors, editors, he could have met even Ange if he wanted to and he'll met her when he'll want to.
Maybe he could even use Ikuko's pc as there's no hint he's not allowed to use it.
He could have asked for help if he felt trapped.
His situation is pretty different from Beato who's basically cut out of the world and lives with the only company of Kinzo's servants who likely doesn't let her do anything that Kinzo wouldn't want her to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
And we're literally TOLD that he wrote Banquet, etc. Well, Ikuko wrote them, but Tohya did the plotting.
Wait, weren't you saying the story of Kuwadorian Beato is true short ago?
Because from what you're writing now it seems Tohya put it in his story not because it was true but because it was a metaphor for his condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, the difference between Random=Ikuko and Yasu=Ikuko is like ... like between adopting a cat you see on the street, and taking your neighbors cat that happened to be on the street. The action is the same, and you can treat the cat very gently and it may looooove living with you, but the context of the prior relationship carries some weight, y'know?
Honestly if your neighbour were to mistreat his cat or trying to kill it or abandoning it I wouldn't think so bad of you picking it up and taking care of it.

You're assuming Yasu knows Battler has a loving family waiting for him and that nothing will happen to him if he were to return to his own life.

As we don't know what happened on Prime and what Yasu knows about it she might have tried to protect Battler from Eva, believing her the culprit, or Battler from being arrested as he is the culprit/could be suspected to be the culprit.

Basically you're trying to built the theory that Yasu is evil in what she does by using more theories as premises.

If we can't prove the premises of a theory how can we sure the theory is right?

Sure, IF Battler is innocent and can't be suspected and IF she knows Eva is a loving aunt who'd love to have him back and IF she'd been sure the environment in which he would live with Eva and Ange would be the best for him (doubtful as Eva was having serious troubles at the time and although Ange claimed she wanted her brother back we don't know if she'll be happy with one that doesn't remember her and that's injured. She's a very young kid who lost her parents after all, we can't expect her to play nurse.), she's a jerk at keeping the truth hidden from him.

Can we prove any of the above? Nope. So why to state that a person is mean according to a theory that can't be proved?

If and when we'll have more material to work with that'll say that Yasu and she KNEW this, this and that, then I'll say that if Ikuko is Yasu she's a jerk.

First however I need the premise to be proved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It's true that psychological trauma can cause some problems, but "going without air" or "drug abuse" are VERY physical things affecting the brain... Tohya and Ikuko themselves offer that they weren't sure if the physical trauma came from the possiblw drowning, or the possible car-collision. I tend to go for "time spent drowning", myself.
I think a doctor should be able to tell what damaged the brain and I don't like much the drowning theory because if he drowned he shouldn't have been able to walk around... but I've no idea if Ryukishi cared about Tohya's medical record.
Actually I think it's more likely in this case he let more options open because to get the exact medical conditions for a certain situation is pretty hard (and a friend of mine who studied psychology said that if the amnesia is regressive it shouldn't have lasted that much...).

For the series House, M.D. people likely made research and yet I've found a web page in which doctors had fun analyzing it and pointing out all the medical errors (they weren't so much but there were some).

So really, if Ryukishi didn't want to get in troubles with medical problems that weren't realistic enough I don't blame him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I can agree with this ... though if that's how he felt about it, I think it'd have been better to just have Tohya show up in the EP8 ???.
As said in another post I'm not really happy about how EP 8 turned out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I guess this is what gets me with your argument, the most - you don't trust ANYTHING in the plot as given.
I'd apprecciate if you wouldn't assume things about me. If you've to know there are things that I trust about the plot as otherwise the plot would crumble.

I just don't trust EVERYTHING in Umineko at face value, especially if they're only speculations over something over which we had really few info.

And anyway we weren't talking about me but about Umineko. No need to speculate about me.

Also Rokkenjima Prime IS vague. Skipping Ikuko we can't even tell if Ange died on Rokkenjima, died by jumping off a building, killed Amakusa and Kuwabata or become Yukari FOR SURE.
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