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Old 2013-01-26, 07:40   Link #5701
Zeydra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
now the betting starts: which of Destiny's females will get the Fllay treatment in the Destiny Remaster?
My money is on Lunamaria! They already had upskirt shots of her in the original.

But then there is fanservice character Meer. So, I'll go with all the females, that would be a safe bet I think.
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Old 2013-01-26, 07:50   Link #5702
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
can't wait for the first 12 episodes they are great.
After those episodes, I'll probably bail out .

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
now the betting starts: which of Destiny's females will get the Fllay treatment in the Destiny Remaster?
Meyrin?

(Meer was already sexed-up in Destiny, so yeah )
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Old 2013-01-26, 07:59   Link #5703
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
They broke it 2 or 3 times in SEED.
That was the only time they actually broke it and even then they made it clear that they were setting the line at weapons development and nothing more. And even then it was a point of contention. Cagalli went as far as to say her father betrayed Orb in doing so and it was all in secret so it seems to me more like Cagalli's father had bent rules he wasn't supposed to, rather than break ideals that were not fundamental to the country.

Quote:
If you give a leeway for one of the claims, then you have to give a leeway for another. Thus, by joining the Alliance in Destiny, then Orb forms into a relationship with other nations on Earth. And any conflict that the Alliance has is also Orb's conflict.

Remember, the reason given for the war in Destiny was the Junius 7 drop, which also affected Orb.

If neither you nor Obelisk is willing to give that leeway for Orb in Destiny, then the other choice is for you guys to accept that these are truly not so fundamental to Orb such that the government may change them without having any significant dissension from the people.
It's true that Orb could've argued that as a basis.

But it didn't.

But even then that's a false equivalence argument. Orb was directly invaded in the first season whereas in the second season it was an indeterminate terrorist attack.

And the idea that they had to take sides because of the treaty is false. It's the other way round: The fact that they took sides lead to the treaty.

Quote:
If that was how you interpret it, then Orb was a participant the moment they helped build the Gundams. And yet Uzumi still refused to get into the war. So no, the fact that Orb had a conflict with the AF doesn't give them the right (under their own ideals) to interfere in a conflict between the AF and the PLANTs.
But they weren't interfering with any conflict. They were fighting a side that had occupied them.

Quote:
Yeah, by ignoring those ideals when it doesn't suit them, and then upholding it once it becomes convenient again.
The original point here was about how letting themselves being invaded didn't break their ideal if they were doing it to maintain the core ideal. That's hardly ignoring it when it doesn't suit them.

Quote:
Did you skip phase 26-27? One of them may be a recap episode.
No I've seen them and they were good episodes as well that thickened the plot between Shinn and Stellar but I just didn't have much to comment on. The Recap episode was Episode 20.

[EDIT]

...and Episode 29 apparently. I don't even know why they bother with recap episodes when they recap every 30 seconds anyway...
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Old 2013-01-26, 08:47   Link #5704
I Fail at Life
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I knew it would be March or close to spring.

I'll skip 1-12, those were fine. I'll watch 13-32, after that I quit.
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Old 2013-01-26, 08:59   Link #5705
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
After those episodes, I'll probably bail out .
Why? we need to see if they redo the Freedom VS Impulse battle, with Kira shielding the Arch Angel from the Tannhauser blast using the Freedom! and Shinn striking down the already damaged holy saviour Freedom like the coward he is!

Serious question:

How the does the Impulse cockpit work? the core part is the Core splendor, how does it switch out .. everything inside to the Impulse cockpit?
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Old 2013-01-26, 09:14   Link #5706
I Fail at Life
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Why? we need to see if they redo the Freedom VS Impulse battle, with Kira shielding the Arch Angel from the Tannhauser blast using the Freedom! and Shinn striking down the already damaged holy saviour Freedom like the coward he is!

Serious question:

How the does the Impulse cockpit work? the core part is the Core splendor, how does it switch out .. everything inside to the Impulse cockpit?
Oh, you can bet one of the most talked about, discussed, debated, remembered episode,,, will have something added to it or taken out.
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Old 2013-01-26, 12:02   Link #5707
Haak
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Episode 31

So Shinn makes the decision to return Stellar. It was surprisingly easy how he managed to find Neo and contact him but the act itself was very emotional. Stellar seems to be mix between Rosamia and Four from Gundam Zeta and with all the same death flags to boot but I don't recall that ever happening in Zeta so I'm glad it's differentiated a bit.

[EDIT]

Episode 32

Well that ended a little earlier than I expected but it'll be interesting see where Shinn goes from here now.

[EDIT]

Episode 33

Wait what? How can Neo be the real Mu? We saw Mu get vaporised in the first season. Surely they know about the clone thing don't they?

And it looks like Shinn is looking more like a Hathaway than a Kamille.

The Chairman's speech at the end had it's up and downs, but mostly downs. First all it relied on fake Lacus which is stupid in itself and second of all it just totally introduced a new organisation people had obviously never heard of expected people to go along with it anyway.
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Old 2013-01-26, 15:35   Link #5708
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Indeed, but she hasnt voiced cagalli in any games either
Yeah, but Morosawa isn't involved in the games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That was the only time they actually broke it
No, it wasn't.
Quote:
and even then they made it clear that they were setting the line at weapons development and nothing more.
They didn't need to do anything more. Once they are involved, they are involved.
Quote:
And even then it was a point of contention. Cagalli went as far as to say her father betrayed Orb in doing so and it was all in secret so it seems to me more like Cagalli's father had bent rules he wasn't supposed to, rather than break ideals that were not fundamental to the country.
Actually, Uzumi didn't know about it at the time. But once he knew, he did nothing about the perpetrators and even continued to profit from it.
Quote:
It's true that Orb could've argued that as a basis.

But it didn't.
Because they chose to abandon their ideals. That was just a reason that they could've chosen if they wanted to pretend that they're still upholding their ideals.
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But even then that's a false equivalence argument. Orb was directly invaded in the first season whereas in the second season it was an indeterminate terrorist attack.
That indeterminate attack still affected Orb.
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And the idea that they had to take sides because of the treaty is false. It's the other way round: The fact that they took sides lead to the treaty.
Yes, but that's not what I said. I said form a relationship, and that happens the moment they joined the Alliance.
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But they weren't interfering with any conflict. They were fighting a side that had occupied them.
No, I'm talking about when they interfered in the battle between EA and ZAFT. Orb was not part of that battle.
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The original point here was about how letting themselves being invaded didn't break their ideal if they were doing it to maintain the core ideal. That's hardly ignoring it when it doesn't suit them.
Of course, it does. Part of their ideal is that they will prevent anybody from invading them. If they had fought and lost, that would be one thing. But Uzumi chose to give up before they were even defeated and reduced his military strength.
Quote:
No I've seen them and they were good episodes as well that thickened the plot between Shinn and Stellar but I just didn't have much to comment on. The Recap episode was Episode 20.
Oh, okay.
Quote:
[EDIT]

...and Episode 29 apparently. I don't even know why they bother with recap episodes when they recap every 30 seconds anyway...
There's even a .5 phase that's a recap. I think there are about 4 recap episodes out of a total of 51 for the series.
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Old 2013-01-26, 15:53   Link #5709
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Yeah, but Morosawa isn't involved in the games.
No, but it's a SEED/DESTINY related, which was morosawas work, Naomi said she wouldnt work with anything SEED/Morosawa related again after Destiny, which she hasnt until recently i belive
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:01   Link #5710
monster
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I see, that's too bad. Cagalli sometimes annoys me, but I've always liked her voice.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:16   Link #5711
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
They didn't need to do anything more. Once they are involved, they are involved.

Actually, Uzumi didn't know about it at the time. But once he knew, he did nothing about the perpetrators and even continued to profit from it.
My point still stands. Just because he broke the rules doesn't automatically mean those rules meant nothing. It was a point of contention and something that was done in secrecy and obviously something that was portrayed as a betrayal to their values. This does not suggest their ideals meant nothing.

Quote:
Because they chose to abandon their ideals.

That was just a reason that they could've chosen if they wanted to pretend that they're still upholding their ideals.
Then what point are you making? I'm talking about how the complete abandonment of their ideals doesn't make sense.

Quote:
That indeterminate attack still affected Orb.
Yes but obviously not in the same way as a complete invasion. It's false equivalence. Saying that Orb going against PLANT if it's an indirect victim of a terrorist attack of an unknown party is definitely not on the same level of Orb going against the Earth Alliance after the Earth Alliance invaded them.

Quote:
Yes, but that's not what I said. I said form a relationship, and that happens the moment they joined the Alliance.
My point still stand: It was the other way around. Them taking sides is what lead to them forming that relationship.

Quote:
No, I'm talking about when they interfered in the battle between EA and ZAFT. Orb was not part of that battle.
I was talking about how Orb kept on fighting the Earth alliance after it invaded them. I don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Of course, it does. Part of their ideal is that they will prevent anybody from invading them. If they had fought and lost, that would be one thing. But Uzumi chose to give up before they were even defeated and reduced his military strength.
For the sake of retreating and fighting again thus upholding that ideal even further.

Not a violation.

It's only a violation if you interpret it as ridiculously strictly as possible without taking into account it's purpose for upholding the core ideal. In the end SEED never made a point that Cagalli's father was breaking those ideals. On contrary, it was portraying him as someone who was still upholding those ideals.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:38   Link #5712
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
My point still stands. Just because he broke the rules doesn't automatically mean those rules meant nothing. It was a point of contention and something that was done in secrecy and obviously something that was portrayed as a betrayal to their values. This does not suggest their ideals meant nothing.
Of course the rules meant something, but that doesn't mean it means the same thing for everyone.
Quote:
Then what point are you making? I'm talking about how the complete abandonment of their ideals doesn't make sense.
My point is that those ideals do not stand up well to the current global situation that Orb is facing.
Quote:
Yes but obviously not in the same way as a complete invasion. It's false equivalence. Saying that Orb going against PLANT if it's an indirect victim of a terrorist attack of an unknown party is definitely not on the same level of Orb going against the Earth Alliance after the Earth Alliance invaded them.
The point is that it's not by an unknown party, but by Coordinators which the EA has claimed is on the order of ZAFT. After a war where a weapon like GENESIS was used and now the Junius 7 incident, do you think it'll be hard to make the people suspicious of ZAFT? (Of course, we the audience knew better.)
Quote:
My point still stand: It was the other way around. Them taking sides is what lead to them forming that relationship.
Alright.
Quote:
I was talking about how Orb kept on fighting the Earth alliance after it invaded them. I don't know what you're talking about.
I was talking about Kusanagi in a hypothetical situation if they were still considered Orb. But I don't, so I'll drop this.
Quote:
For the sake of retreating and fighting again thus upholding that ideal even further.

Not a violation.
Except that decreased Orb's chance of defending itself. So no, their ideal has already been broken.
Quote:
It's only a violation if you interpret it as ridiculously strictly as possible without taking into account it's purpose for upholding the core ideal. In the end SEED never made a point that Cagalli's father was breaking those ideals.
SEED made a point of the three claims. If it was just a simple concept of neutrality, then fine. The fact that they bothered to emphasize those three claims meant that those three claims actually meant something as stated. And it also means something when they're violated.
Quote:
On contrary, it was portraying him as someone who was still upholding those ideals
No, it portrayed him as someone who recognized the balance between pure idealism and practicality. That's why he went through with Astray production even though it's a product of helping the EA building weapons to fight against ZAFT.

That's why, when it comes to Destiny, this conflict between ideals and practicality appears again and the current government chose joining the EA rather than risk having to fight of an invasion on its own again.

That's why it makes sense for them to abandon these ideals when it doesn't reflect the current global situation. (That doesn't mean I agree with it.)
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:09   Link #5713
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Of course the rules meant something, but that doesn't mean it means the same thing for everyone.
But it doesn't show that those ideals are not integral to Orb which was the original point.

Quote:
My point is that those ideals do not stand up well to the current global situation that Orb is facing.
That's basically fanwanking at this point though. It wasn't even something that came up and I doubt it's something the writers even considered.

My original point to this is that there is some leeway in their rules as long as the core ideal of neutrality is maintained. In that hypothetical situation then yes I concede there is a small degree of leeway there as well but how that proves there is no leeway at all, I'm not certain on.

Quote:
The point is that it's not by an unknown party, but by Coordinators which the EA has claimed is on the order of ZAFT. After a war where a weapon like GENESIS was used and now the Junius 7 incident, do you think it'll be hard to make the people suspicious of ZAFT? (Of course, we the audience knew better.)
Suspicions are hardly on the level of a direct invasion.

But again, I think this whole point is moot to begin with.

Quote:
Except that decreased Orb's chance of defending itself. So no, their ideal has already been broken.
Unless they continue to fight afterwards.

Quote:
SEED made a point of the three claims. If it was just a simple concept of neutrality, then fine. The fact that they bothered to emphasize those three claims meant that those three claims actually meant something as stated. And it also means something when they're violated.
No, that doesn't have to mean they have to be taken absolutely literally without any sense. The show also made clear that the core dieal was to maintain neutrality at any cost.

Quote:
No, it portrayed him as someone who recognized the balance between pure idealism and practicality. That's why he went through with Astray production even though it's a product of helping the EA building weapons to fight against ZAFT.
I thought he decided to resign?

And way, I think it's clear from the episode that he was maintaining his ideals

Episode 40
"We won't let Orb fall into their hands!" - Cagalli's father seconds before he blows himself up

Quote:
That's why, when it comes to Destiny, this conflict between ideals and practicality appears again and the current government chose joining the EA rather than risk having to fight of an invasion on its own again.

That's why it makes sense for them to abandon these ideals when it doesn't reflect the current global situation. (That doesn't mean I agree with it.)
The story doesn't even remotely portray Orb's abandonment of it's ideals in Seed Destiny as an okay thing. All those who argue the position are protrayed as as corrupt misogynist cowards with no sense.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:40   Link #5714
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But it doesn't show that those ideals are not integral to Orb which was the original point.
It does show when they can conveniently violate it at whim when it suits them.
Quote:
That's basically fanwanking at this point though. It wasn't even something that came up and I doubt it's something the writers even considered.
How so? Orb joined the Alliance, didn't they?
Quote:
My original point to this is that there is some leeway in their rules as long as the core ideal of neutrality is maintained. In that hypothetical situation then yes I concede there is a small degree of leeway there as well but how that proves there is no leeway at all, I'm not certain on.
My point is that the core ideal of neutrality is not sustainable unless Orb is powerful enough to fend off an invasion on its own. SEED proved it wasn't.
Quote:
Suspicions are hardly on the level of a direct invasion.
Suspicion makes it easier for the people to accept when the government decides to join the Alliance.
Quote:
Unless they continue to fight afterwards.
They didn't. Orb was annexed by the AF.
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No, that doesn't have to mean they have to be taken absolutely literally without any sense. The show also made clear that the core dieal was to maintain neutrality at any cost.
It's also about maintaining sovereignty, which is the point of the second claim.
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I thought he decided to resign?
Who resigned?
Quote:
And way, I think it's clear from the episode that he was maintaining his ideals
That's debatable. Certainly not all people may think so. At any case, even if he did, like I said, that doesn't mean everybody would feel the same way about these ideals, especially after it has failed their country.
Quote:
Episode 40
"We won't let Orb fall into their hands!" - Cagalli's father seconds before he blows himself up
But it did.
Quote:
The story doesn't even remotely portray Orb's abandonment of it's ideals in Seed Destiny as an okay thing. All those who argue the position are protrayed as as corrupt misogynist cowards with no sense.
That's the true for the characters themselves being corrupt, and of course the audience knew about the AF. But the way they joined the Alliance was through legitimate means.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:01   Link #5715
amaterasu4
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
No, but it's a SEED/DESTINY related, which was morosawas work, Naomi said she wouldnt work with anything SEED/Morosawa related again after Destiny, which she hasnt until recently i belive
Fake since Shindo had to redub all her lines in Destiny Special Edition, Rengou vs Zaft II Plus and SEED HD.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:16   Link #5716
rvb
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Cagallis father resigned as chief representative when he took responsibility for the creation of the gundams while he had nothing to do with them.

He only retreated the archangel and the freedom/justice when they already lost orb btw
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:19   Link #5717
monster
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
SEED HD.
I believe SEED HD simply uses a remastered recording of all dialogs.
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Old 2013-01-26, 22:40   Link #5718
Soaring Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Fake since Shindo had to redub all her lines in Destiny Special Edition, Rengou vs Zaft II Plus and SEED HD.
Didn't she also voice Cagalli in the recent G Gen game (Overworld)?
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Old 2013-01-27, 03:41   Link #5719
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Fake since Shindo had to redub all her lines in Destiny Special Edition, Rengou vs Zaft II Plus and SEED HD.
Fake? you do know they had Sayla's character voiced with stock-lines from the library in the zeta movies, right? if you havent noticed, she hasnt done any voice work since after destiny, but they still have the old recordings, those have been used in other media such as games and the SE's.

Didn't bandai even go out and said they wouldnt re-record anything for the remasters?

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Didn't she also voice Cagalli in the recent G Gen game (Overworld)?
that's possible, i heard something on /m/ from 2ch regarding her burying the hatchet recently.
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Old 2013-01-27, 07:42   Link #5720
Haak
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It does show when they can conveniently violate it at whim when it suits them.
No it doesn't. We have no idea what effort the politicians went through to even do that much and in the end it was still made an issue by the story. Not even close to a whim.

Quote:
How so? Orb joined the Alliance, didn't they?
Yes but there is no suggestion that they joined the Alliance on the basis that Orb suffered from the Julius Seven incident.

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My point is that the core ideal of neutrality is not sustainable unless Orb is powerful enough to fend off an invasion on its own. SEED proved it wasn't.
The issue of the sustainability of Orb's ideals has no relevance to my point about how there is leeway in their ideals. We can debate about that too but I'd like to get this point out of the way first.

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Suspicion makes it easier for the people to accept when the government decides to join the Alliance.
Certainly. But it's still a very strong false equivalence.

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They didn't. Orb was annexed by the AF.
I very much doubt that they would accept the legality of that, especially when that definitely goes against their ideals. Just because AF did it, doesn't mean it's legitimate.

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It's also about maintaining sovereignty, which is the point of the second claim.
But the core ideal is neutrality.

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Who resigned?
Cagalli's father right after he found out that they were making weapons for AF under his watch.

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That's debatable. Certainly not all people may think so. At any case, even if he did, like I said, that doesn't mean everybody would feel the same way about these ideals, especially after it has failed their country.
But it definitely proves that Cagalli's father wasn't abandoning his ideals. And in the end it didn't really fail their country.

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But it did.
But Cagalli's father as as well as all those politicians thought they were maintaining ideals which is the point. Your point was that they break it at a whim and that this was an example of it but this is definitely not evidence of it. They were not breaking their ideals at a whim.

Quote:
That's the true for the characters themselves being corrupt, and of course the audience knew about the AF. But the way they joined the Alliance was through legitimate means.
I never said it wasn't legitimate. I said the show doesn't portray it as even remotely okay and that it was out of character.
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