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Old 2013-01-26, 13:02   Link #3281
Kleeyook
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^^ Yeah, but then we should ban people from creating too sentient AI. Trying to accept AI as human is as troublesome as trying to accept a clone as being equal to the original. It's difficult. I want to point out that having something like AI that can be copy and backed up to have equal right as we are is really a difficult thing to accept. I don't want such a thing to happen.

What if I made AI that can do all the jobs you can do and replace them as workforce instead of you?

What if an AI is almost immortal, can create many back ups and copies of itself, having far superior computational than human want to have the same right as human (or more)?

What if Higa decided to be a huge dick and made 100 copies of Kirito as Flunctlight then release them on the real world. What would those copies do (I can't see anyone besides Kayaba and Kirito to be able to accept them being the copy, now I just add 100 of them)? How would Kirito act? Would he still accept all of his copies as being himself?

Souls? I wonder how many people really believe about that. I'm a Buddhist and I believe in reincarnation and souls. My own opinion is that those Flunctlight are equal to human souls, but I don't categorize human souls as humans. The afterlife in SAO is questionable too.

IMHO The Matrix is the prove that humans are retards for creating too sentient AIs. I don't blame them about abusing tools, but sentient beings aren't gonna sit around like that, but it's not like the human is in the wrong either.
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Old 2013-01-26, 13:53   Link #3282
chad001
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Yeah, AI is fundamentally different from us humans, but I've always believed that if it thinks, it is "human". If they're sentient, they can feel pain, and acts can become inhumane. At the very least, Fluctlights should be treated better than animal, even animals have rights nowadays....
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Old 2013-01-26, 14:14   Link #3283
Kleeyook
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Yeah, but people aren't gonna accept that easily. We are able to accept them easily before such a thing happens, but if they were really created, things will be different.

I think that they should reset the flow of the Underworld to be 100x slower than real world so that the AIs wouldn't be too damn advanced than us... It's the best decision to make besides shutting down the whole thing and delete the world if we aren't permitted to do any experiment on them. It's something that should have been done in the first place!

As for animal right, mind you that if we met a bear or tiger in the forest unarmed, we're dead meat. It's another thing if we have firepower.

There is a bunny outbreak in Australia but they always blamed the one who took the rabbit there and government who came up with their elimination method, while the PETA contributed absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:18   Link #3284
Shinon
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http://taptaptaptaptap.wordpress.com...ight/#more-849
vol 11 update thx tap
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:11   Link #3285
Flere821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Well, she said that she began to feel... whatever she's feeling (probably lust ) when she saw Kirito using his black swordsman character IIRC. So you could say she "felt in love" due to his cool factor.

But really, the reason is so shallow that you may as well say she likes him just because he's the protagonist, which is the real reason in the end.
... I'm really starting to wonder if I should go and re-make the WEB 7 Summary parts, include more emotional parts instead of just focusing on the plot. It's NOT just the cool factor, there was also the tons of flags that Kirito raised after they both got blown out of the Cathedral and started the climb outside to the top. Off the top of my head these flags includes:

-Kirito accepting Alice Synthesis Fifty for being who she is, as a whole person and not just a personality created by Administrator filling the gap of where the old Alice was.
-Kirito having a strong sense of justice, trying to correct wrongs allowed by the current church laws that cared more about the strict wording than the benevolence towards others.
-Kirito being a strong swordsman;
-Kirito being his usual flamboyant self (like him 'flirting' with Sinon in GGO);

I'll admit the 'cool factor' plays a part, but you do Alice as a character a great disservice for thinking that she'd be taken in with just that.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:24   Link #3286
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I agree that Kirito believe of AI=Human is silly. then again this japan we talking about where most of them think everything (Animal, Rock, Computer, etc) have soul -_-
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:34   Link #3287
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
I'll admit the 'cool factor' plays a part, but you do Alice as a character a great disservice for thinking that she'd be taken in with just that.
I disagree. Putting your first point aside, all the others are part of his cool factor imo. Besides, she did say that seeing him as the black swordsman was what changed her feeling or whatever.

Anyway, Alice is not much of character to begin with so it's not me who is doing her a disservice but the author himself for portraying her that way.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:45   Link #3288
Flere821
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I disagree. Putting your first point aside, all the others are part of his cool factor imo. Besides, she did say that seeing him as the black swordsman was what changed her feeling or whatever.
When she realized her feelings, not the actual change happened then. Also, I'd argue my second point isn't really 'cool factor' but a moral position. What you call 'cool factor' can stem from this but I don't think this can be shown as something like part of said factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Anyway, Alice is not much of character to begin with so it's not me who is doing her a disservice but the author himself for portraying her that way.
I think we'll have just have to agree to disagree on this part. As much as I'd love to throw this in your face and end the conversation here, it's just petty to completely disregard another's opinion.
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Old 2013-01-26, 19:56   Link #3289
orpheus2
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Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, but people aren't gonna accept that easily. We are able to accept them easily before such a thing happens, but if they were really created, things will be different.

I think that they should reset the flow of the Underworld to be 100x slower than real world so that the AIs wouldn't be too damn advanced than us... It's the best decision to make besides shutting down the whole thing and delete the world if we aren't permitted to do any experiment on them. It's something that should have been done in the first place!

As for animal right, mind you that if we met a bear or tiger in the forest unarmed, we're dead meat. It's another thing if we have firepower.

There is a bunny outbreak in Australia but they always blamed the one who took the rabbit there and government who came up with their elimination method, while the PETA contributed absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
I agree that Kirito believe of AI=Human is silly. then again this japan we talking about where most of them think everything (Animal, Rock, Computer, etc) have soul -_-
I agree. As much I want to believe equal rights for AI, I am also find it hard to accept them when they become too advanced to the point they might go Skynet on us. I am more in agreement to removing the 1000x time rate and isolate them for the time being. This is in order for us to get used to the idea that Fluctlights deserve some if not equal rights.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:47   Link #3290
Tusjecht
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Well, at least Kleeyook is still arguing only the relevant parts...

I think we're all missing a point here. These FluctLights souls have no idea to begin with that they're actually just recreations of a soul by computers. They've been raised by researchers initially to believe that in their world, gods really do exist amd that's the reason for all magical phenomena.

This brings up a psychological argument. Say, you're in RATH's FullDive machine, with its 100% realistic rendering, and you've lived there your entire life. Unless your 'god' suddenly appeared before you, and informed that this world is a testing ground, how would you know you're simply a soul in a computer. If you're not anyone important, just your regular villager trying to make ends meet, is that even going to come to mind?

How the web novel got to the point of Underworld moving against Real world, I don't know. But this sheer inability to know is what protects the Underworld residents to begin with. We're having all these issues with assigning them status because relative to them, we're gods, and we're debating on whether to grant them equal status.

Can we just consider breaking the barrier between UW and RL moot until more volumes come out?
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Old 2013-01-26, 22:26   Link #3291
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Well, at least Kleeyook is still arguing only the relevant parts...

I think we're all missing a point here. These FluctLights souls have no idea to begin with that they're actually just recreations of a soul by computers. They've been raised by researchers initially to believe that in their world, gods really do exist amd that's the reason for all magical phenomena.

This brings up a psychological argument. Say, you're in RATH's FullDive machine, with its 100% realistic rendering, and you've lived there your entire life. Unless your 'god' suddenly appeared before you, and informed that this world is a testing ground, how would you know you're simply a soul in a computer. If you're not anyone important, just your regular villager trying to make ends meet, is that even going to come to mind?

How the web novel got to the point of Underworld moving against Real world, I don't know. But this sheer inability to know is what protects the Underworld residents to begin with. We're having all these issues with assigning them status because relative to them, we're gods, and we're debating on whether to grant them equal status.

Can we just consider breaking the barrier between UW and RL moot until more volumes come out?
That's a lot like Matrix don't you think. In any case, Alice dealt with it, didn't she?
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Old 2013-01-27, 00:10   Link #3292
Tusjecht
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That's exactly what I'm saying. For the moment this is advantageous to the researchers because there's no risk of 4th wall breaking, so to say.

Alice is still an anomaly though. She's like the One. xD
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Old 2013-01-27, 00:13   Link #3293
orpheus2
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
That's a lot like Matrix don't you think. In any case, Alice dealt with it, didn't she?
What about the others? Remember the Fluctlight of Higa? Don't you think the other Fluctlights will react the same way as F!Higa?

Spoiler for End of Alicization:
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Old 2013-01-27, 00:48   Link #3294
Flere821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
This brings up a psychological argument. Say, you're in RATH's FullDive machine, with its 100% realistic rendering, and you've lived there your entire life. Unless your 'god' suddenly appeared before you, and informed that this world is a testing ground, how would you know you're simply a soul in a computer. If you're not anyone important, just your regular villager trying to make ends meet, is that even going to come to mind?

How the web novel got to the point of Underworld moving against Real world, I don't know. But this sheer inability to know is what protects the Underworld residents to begin with. We're having all these issues with assigning them status because relative to them, we're gods, and we're debating on whether to grant them equal status.
Covered in final WEB chapter of Alicization:
Spoiler for RL & Fluctlights:
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Old 2013-01-27, 00:55   Link #3295
Tusjecht
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Thank you for that.

When you say they sent Alice to the real world, how'd they do it?
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Old 2013-01-27, 01:10   Link #3296
Flere821
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When you say they sent Alice to the real world, how'd they do it?
Chinese translations of WEB 8 haven't got that far yet =/ They've done WEB 7 and last chapter earlier, but not WEB 8
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Old 2013-01-27, 01:27   Link #3297
waffler
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which chapter and part is the part where alice sees kirito as black swordsman did that happen?
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Old 2013-01-27, 01:36   Link #3298
Flere821
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which chapter and part is the part where alice sees kirito as black swordsman did that happen?
WEB 7. The fight scenes at the end was skipped by the guy who summarized it back on page 142-144 of this thread.
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Old 2013-01-27, 02:57   Link #3299
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Covered in final WEB chapter of Alicization:
Spoiler for RL & Fluctlights:
How about we set the time flow in Underworld to 100x slower than us and never bring any of those guys to the real world? The flow rate would be too slow that almost nothing happen and we don't have to be paranoid about how advanced they have become or they go skynet on us.

I don't trust my creation that is as smart as us. Discrimination always exists and they can as hell discriminate us. They want equal right now because they want to save their own ass!

But Kirito... I for once wish I' could have dismember him for trying to bring such a threat to the world. He just does whatever the hell he wants.
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Old 2013-01-27, 03:00   Link #3300
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
How about we set the time flow in Underworld to 100x slower than us and never bring any of those guys to the real world? The flow rate would be too slow that almost nothing happen and we don't have to be paranoid about how advanced they have become or they go skynet on us.

I don't trust my creation that is as smart as us. Discrimination always exists and they can as hell discriminate us. They want equal right now because they want to save their own ass!

But Kirito... I for once wish I' could have dismember him for trying to bring such a threat to the world. He just does whatever the hell he wants.
That's projecting your beliefs and and actions into the SAO universe, otherwise known as Gary Stu.

Could you bring it back to a discussion about AIs if you're still not finished?
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