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Old 2013-01-26, 16:11   Link #11841
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
Where did he insinuate that his position was objective?
See what you wrote below, that's just an example.

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Fair enough, since on the internet it's very difficult (if not impossible) to distinguish between majority opinion and vocal minorities. All I know if that I've encountered plenty of people online who hate her, but that may not mean much.
Exactly, unless you've done a poll, or have some omnipotent ability to count who likes what, don't insinuate stuff about the majority. In my opinion, I think it's really just a vocal minority who hate her.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:15   Link #11842
Lupus753
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^That does not answer my question at all. He said that many people shared his opinion, he never said or implied that his opinion was objective.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:18   Link #11843
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
^That does not answer my question at all. He said that many people shared his opinion, he never said or implied that his opinion was objective.
I said that was an example. He doesn't say ti outright, but he insinuates it, through such statements like Nisio writing Medaka to be unlikeable, etc.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:25   Link #11844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
A shallow analysis. When Zenkichi told her that, they were basically strangers. Why do you think she took the words of a stranger to heart so easily? Why do you think an existence as far removed from normal people as Medaka was, accepted a world view that connected her to the people that shunned her so easily? Because she loves people, that's why. Hence, connected.
You seem to be overanalyzing. We as fans can sometimes conject things that are not actually in the story with our speculation.

For instance, you're assuming that she completely loved humanity when she was a child without a purpose, and because of that fact, she'd have taken a liking to Zenkichi's suggestion.
When in reality, that's not really in the manga. And she only adopted Zenkichi's suggestion because he was the first person to actually offer a goal in life.
In turn, Kumagawa gave her his thoughts on the matter, but she found his opinion unsatisfactory because his was a position of negative-affirmation(we have no purpose/goal in life).

Basically, her uncompromising love for humanity was born out of her interaction with people, after helping them via Zenkichi's suggestion of a goal. I personally think it's silly to say Medaka at that age already had a uncompromising love of humans, and not supported in the story.

That's the manga's stated reason for her ideology, so I'm sticking to it. Sure it's just one interpretation, but I think it's by far the best one.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If you say so.
Quite so.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Yes, the result is the same, but the motivation is different. It's still character development, though of a subtler kind than you may be used to.
You could say that.

Though, I'm sure certain people would just call it weak or effortless or just a way for Nishio to shoehorn in development without actually changing the way he writes the charcter.

Which makes it hard for people to feel the development.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Even that would be OK, if you didn't insinuate that your position ix objective truth.
Are you serious?

Do you think I'm some evil mastermind trying to trick you into believing in my opinion or trying to make your's look bad or something?

Here, if it helps any:

Any opinion mentioned thus forth is my complete and abject subjective, personal view, and I'm in no way shape or form trying to supress or discredit the opinions and thoughts of others.

There. I trust you won't be confused now?

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I'm perfectly calm. I do find it amusing how you're insinuating that I'm being overly emotional and irrational in order to discredit what I'm saying.
Well, aren't you?

Here you are, actually stating that I'm trying to objectively prove the truth of my opinion and disprove your's.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I'm perfectly aware that some people don't like Medaka. My problem is the way you use words like 'many' to insinuate that you're in the majority to justify your opinion.
I'm not saying that to justify an opinion.

I'm saying that because of the number I have observed for both sides.

"Many" is not an affirmation of objective truth. Did you not see me using many for both the people who like Medaka and the people who dislike her?

It's just an affirmation of a bi-polar opinion overall. For example, Kumagawa is universally loved, because so little people dislike him.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I never disagreed that Torai could be considered superfluous. My problem is that you assigning unnecessary values to that.
Sure.

I, personally, hate when an author does that to a character.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I would believe that if you weren't doing that exact same thing.
I'm just questioning why you think I'm saying something objectively. It leads me to believe you're insecure of your opinion or something.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:21   Link #11845
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You seem to be overanalyzing. We as fans can sometimes conject things that are not actually in the story with our speculation.

For instance, you're assuming that she completely loved humanity when she was a child without a purpose, and because of that fact, she'd have taken a liking to Zenkichi's suggestion.
When in reality, that's not really in the manga. And she only adopted Zenkichi's suggestion because he was the first person to actually offer a goal in life.
In turn, Kumagawa gave her his thoughts on the matter, but she found his opinion unsatisfactory because his was a position of negative-affirmation(we have no purpose/goal in life).
Firstly, I'm not overanalyzing, though I find it interesting that you think so. I'd think that you're trying to discredit my opinion by painting me as being irrational, but you said you don't do that, right? In any case, I'm not overanalysing, just to be clear.

As for the rest of the post, you have a few things mixed up. Why would Medaka, who has spent her life being an existence apart from human beings, find Kumagawa's thoughts on the matter being unsatisfactory. It should be the opposite, in fact, yet it's not. Why, because Medaka even then loved people.

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Basically, her uncompromising love for humanity was born out of her interaction with people, after helping them via Zenkichi's suggestion of a goal. I personally think it's silly to say Medaka at that age already had a uncompromising love of humans, and not supported in the story.

That's the manga's stated reason for her ideology, so I'm sticking to it. Sure it's just one interpretation, but I think it's by far the best one
Except that doesn't make sense. If it were so, then Medaka wouldn't have found solace and comraderie in fighting her enemies, nor does that explain why accepted Zenkichi's logic instead of going the Kumagawa route.

As for why she has such an amazing love in her, perhaps you missed it, but the manga did mention this hereditary triat of the Kurokami family.

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You could say that.

Though, I'm sure certain people would just call it weak or effortless or just a way for Nishio to shoehorn in development without actually changing the way he writes the charcter.

Which makes it hard for people to feel the development.
And I would disagree with those people, but that's just a matter of opinion. At least don't say Medaka hasn't gone through any character development at all then.


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Are you serious?

Do you think I'm some evil mastermind trying to trick you into believing in my opinion or trying to make your's look bad or something?

Here, if it helps any:

Any opinion mentioned thus forth is my complete and abject subjective, personal view, and I'm in no way shape or form trying to supress or discredit the opinions and thoughts of others.

There. I trust you won't be confused now?

I don't recall calling you an evil mastermind. That's really going a bit far. You just have a bad habit at doing that sort of stuff to justify your opinion, that's all.


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Well, aren't you?
No, I'm not.

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Here you are, actually stating that I'm trying to objectively prove the truth of my opinion and disprove your's.
If you aren't, then why did you mention it in the first place?

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I'm not saying that to justify an opinion.

I'm saying that because of the number I have observed for both sides
So you can provide me a number of how many fans of Medaka Box disike Medaka then?

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"Many" is not an affirmation of objective truth
I never said your use of the word 'many' was an affirmation of objective truth. I said it was you trying to justify your opinion by making it sound like that of the majority.

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Did you not see me using many for both the people who like Medaka and the people who dislike her?
And if you were neutral in this situation, that might make sense.

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Sure.

I, personally, hate when an author does that to a character.
Which is perfectly OK. No need to apply any particular value about it on a character.

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I'm just questioning why you think I'm saying something objectively. It leads me to believe you're insecure of your opinion or something.
And now you make a negative comment on how I think of my opinion. It's because you do stuff like this, in case you didn't know.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:33   Link #11846
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Except that doesn't make sense. If it were so, then Medaka wouldn't have found solace and comraderie in fighting her enemies, nor does that explain why accepted Zenkichi's logic instead of going the Kumagawa route.
I don't know about fighting enemies, but she went with Zenkichi and not Kumagawa because Zen gave her a goal. Kuma said the opposite, that human beings have no purpose in life or reason for being born.


Quote:
I never said your use of the word 'many' was an affirmation of objective truth. I said it was you trying to justify your opinion by making it sound like that of the majority.
No, you said many times that Wolfenstein was using the word 'many' to make his opinion seem objective. One example was in my last response to you.


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Which is perfectly OK. No need to apply any particular value about it on a character.
It's always fine to apply values to characters based on their role. It's part of examining or deconstructing a creative work.
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Old 2013-01-26, 17:49   Link #11847
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
I don't know about fighting enemies, but she went with Zenkichi and not Kumagawa because Zen gave her a goal. Kuma said the opposite, that human beings have no purpose in life or reason for being born.
And my question is, why did she, an existence far away from humans need a goal to begin with? Why not go the Kumagawa route?

Quote:
No, you said many times that Wolfenstein was using the word 'many' to make his opinion seem objective. One example was in my last response to you.
I think you're confused. I said that Wolfenstein often make insinuations to make his opinionnseem objective. When I mentioned the 'many' issue, I never said that. When I mentioned that to you earlier, I used it as an example.

Quote:
It's always fine to apply values to characters based on their role. It's part of examining or deconstructing a creative work.
Except he didn't do that. He applied a value based on another character.
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Old 2013-01-26, 18:03   Link #11848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Firstly, I'm not overanalyzing, though I find it interesting that you think so. I'd think that you're trying to discredit my opinion by painting me as being irrational, but you said you don't do that, right? In any case, I'm not overanalysing, just to be clear.
You seem to be, people can overanalyze without noticing. It's definitely not unprecedented.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Why would Medaka, who has spent her life being an existence apart from human beings, find Kumagawa's thoughts on the matter being unsatisfactory.
Because Kumagawa gave her no goal at all.

He just said "Humans have no goal/purpose".

Medaka, who was an impressionable child at the time and ripe age of 3, simply dismissed the fact that once again, she couldn't get a goal to strive towards.

Do remember, that's what she wanted as a kid. She was looking for a goal. Even hoping doctors could give it to her.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If it were so, then Medaka wouldn't have found solace and comraderie in fighting her enemies
I fail to see the relevance.

How does she like fightning her enemies mean that when she was 3 yeard old, she was already hopelessly in-love with humanity? Where's the connection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
As for why she has such an amazing love in her, perhaps you missed it, but the manga did mention this hereditary triat of the Kurokami family.
"Love" in general.

Not an inherent love of all humans.

Medaka's genetic trait did eventually aid the construction of her love for humans, though, that much is clear.

Because when Zenkichi told her of her purpose, and she went on to fufill it, she grew to love the people she was around.

Your theory that she was unconditionally in love with humans at age 3 just isn't as likely. Remember that she even proposed to a single human, Zenkichi? When her love for all of humanity abstained her from seeking the wiles of Akune? That was after her experiences in helping people.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And I would disagree with those people, but that's just a matter of opinion. At least don't say Medaka hasn't gone through any character development at all then.
Sure, but I doubt people were thinking in those terms.

Bad/unlikeable character development is often worse than a stagnant character. At least for me.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't recall calling you an evil mastermind. That's really going a bit far. You just have a bad habit at doing that sort of stuff to justify your opinion, that's all.
You just have a bad habit of thinking that people are trying to disprove your opinion, that's all.

This is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If you aren't, then why did you mention it in the first place?
...

The point of a subjective debate is understanding, not proving.

I'm explaining my reasoning to you so you could understand it. But it's clear that you see that as some sort of objective attack to your reasoning.

Please, stop that.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
So you can provide me a number of how many fans of Medaka Box disike Medaka then?
Well, I can link you to several Medaka Box discussion forums, but I doubt that would be relevant.

That's basically what I use as a form of observation. Most people have stated a dislike for the character. Just like many people have done the opposite.

Then again, that's just their personal opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I never said your use of the word 'many' was an affirmation of objective truth. I said it was you trying to justify your opinion by making it sound like that of the majority.
Refer to Lupus's post and your discussion with him.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And if you were neutral in this situation, that might make sense.
What?

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Which is perfectly OK. No need to apply any particular value about it on a character.
I feel that is an integral part of my enjoyment of a character. Hence, I'll examine it.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And now you make a negative comment on how I think of my opinion. It's because you do stuff like this, in case you didn't know.
Well, that's what I'm lead to believe when you think all of my personal opinions are objective attacks to your's.
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Old 2013-01-26, 18:39   Link #11849
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You seem to be, people can overanalyze without noticing. It's definitely not unprecedented.
Well, I'm not overanalysing, just so you know. Though I wonder what gives you the impression I am.

Quote:
Because Kumagawa gave her no goal at all.

He just said "Humans have no goal/purpose".

Medaka, who was an impressionable child at the time and ripe age of 3, simply dismissed the fact that once again, she couldn't get a goal to strive towards.

Do remember, that's what she wanted as a kid. She was looking for a goal. Even hoping doctors could give it to her.
And why was someone like Medaka, who could not connect with humanity, looking for a goal in the first place? Why not go the Kumagawa route?



Quote:
I fail to see the relevance.

How does she like fightning her enemies mean that when she was 3 yeard old, she was already hopelessly in-love with humanity? Where's the connection?
Love requires reciprocation. It's because she seeks that reciprocation that she latched onto Zen's goal. That didn't work since people still didn't conect to her, so then she gravitated toward her enemies.


Quote:
"Love" in general.

Not an inherent love of all humans.

Medaka's genetic trait did eventually aid the construction of her love for humans, though, that much is clear.

Because when Zenkichi told her of her purpose, and she went on to fufill it, she grew to love the people she was around.

Your theory that she was unconditionally in love with humans at age 3 just isn't as likely. Remember that she even proposed to a single human, Zenkichi? When her love for all of humanity abstained her from seeking the wiles of Akune? That was after her experiences in helping people
Her genetic 'love' became a love of people because people rejected, so she sought their love. That's probably the most Plus thing about.

As for your Zenkichi example, when she proposed to him, she hadn't started helping people yet. As for Akune, at that point her ambition had already become distorted anyway.

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Sure, but I doubt people were thinking in those terms.

Bad/unlikeable character development is often worse than a stagnant character. At least for me.
Quite fine. If you think it's unlikeable and bad, fine. As I mentioned before, please don't treat it like a fact.

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You just have a bad habit of thinking that people are trying to disprove your opinion, that's all.

This is pointless.
I don't think 'people' do that. I think you have a habit of unfourtunate insinuations.

Quote:
...

The point of a subjective debate is understanding, not proving.

I'm explaining my reasoning to you so you could understand it. But it's clear that you see that as some sort of objective attack to your reasoning.

Please, stop that.
The two of us are having a, for lack of a better word, debate and you make an utterly off topic comment about me being overly emotional. This has no part in the debate, so I can only assume itmis an attack on my reasoning. Get it now.

Quote:
Well, I can link you to several Medaka Box discussion forums, but I doubt that would be relevant.

That's basically what I use as a form of observation. Most people have stated a dislike for the character. Just like many people have done the opposite.

Then again, that's just their personal opinion.
Exactly, forums are the worst to gauge things like popularity, thanks to phenomenons like vocal minorities.

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Refer to Lupus's post and your discussion with him.
OK.

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What?
Since you are clearly biased, your opinion is ineligible, got it now?

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I feel that is an integral part of my enjoyment of a character. Hence, I'll examine it.
As long as you don't paint it as objective fact.

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Well, that's what I'm lead to believe when you think all of my personal opinions are objective attacks to your's.
I don't think that, though again, the fact that you think that is interesting.
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Old 2013-01-26, 18:49   Link #11850
Lupus753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And why was someone like Medaka, who could not connect with humanity, looking for a goal in the first place? Why not go the Kumagawa route?
This is but a guess, but I assume that a purpose - any purpose - is far more influential to a person like child Medaka than nihilism. It seemed to me that Kumagawa was just telling her what she already suspected, so Zenkichi's words were a shock to her system.

Quote:
Quite fine. If you think it's unlikeable and bad, fine. As I mentioned before, please don't treat it like a fact.
No one does and no one did. At most, Wolf claimed his belief to be more widespread than he could prove. That is an entirely different matter.

Quote:
Since you are clearly biased, your opinion is ineligible, got it now?
Oh, I've believed for a long time that it is impossible for a human being to be totally biased without experiencing God Itself. But this is probably semantics or misunderstanding what you wrote. But I do know that it does not make an opinion ineligible.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:18   Link #11851
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
This is but a guess, but I assume that a purpose - any purpose - is far more influential to a person like child Medaka than nihilism. It seemed to me that Kumagawa was just telling her what she already suspected, so Zenkichi's words were a shock to her system.
If Medaka was a normal child, I might agree. But Medaka was a monster child who even at that age was seperate from normal humans. For someone like that, why would having a purpose be better than nihlism, unless there was an external factor?

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No one does and no one did. At most, Wolf claimed his belief to be more widespread than he could prove. That is an entirely different matter.
Except he was treating it as if it was a flaw in Nisio's writing, not an opinion.


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Oh, I've believed for a long time that it is impossible for a human being to be totally biased without experiencing God Itself. But this is probably semantics or misunderstanding what you wrote. But I do know that it does not make an opinion ineligible.
Generally speaking, you'd be right. Within the confines of the discussion is another matter.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:35   Link #11852
Lupus753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If Medaka was a normal child, I might agree. But Medaka was a monster child who even at that age was seperate from normal humans. For someone like that, why would having a purpose be better than nihlism, unless there was an external factor?
This depends on if Medaka was seperate enough, monstrous enough for a purpose to not be better than nihilism. I don't think she was, though I can understand if you think she was.

Quote:
Except he was treating it as if it was a flaw in Nisio's writing, not an opinion.
It was his opinion that it was a flaw in Nisio's writing. "Flaw" is another thing that is (at least usually) subjective.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:52   Link #11853
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
This depends on if Medaka was seperate enough, monstrous enough for a purpose to not be better than nihilism. I don't think she was, though I can understand if you think she was.
To me, the fact that she was searching for a purpose at the age of 2 leads me to believe she was that monstrous.

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It was his opinion that it was a flaw in Nisio's writing. "Flaw" is another thing that is (at least usually) subjective.
That is a bit of,tricky wording. If he had said he personally felt it unlikeable, that would one thing. But bringing in stuff like how Nisiomwrites is another thing.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:09   Link #11854
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Well, I'm not overanalysing, just so you know. Though I wonder what gives you the impression I am.
Simple.

You're saying that Medaka was hopelessly in-love with humanity at age 3, and that's why she followed Zenkichi's mission for her.

When the simpler and more probable explanation would be that she was simply looking for her purpose in life, you know, as an impressionable child that she was. She was so naive that she even proposed to Zenkichi.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And why was someone like Medaka, who could not connect with humanity, looking for a goal in the first place? Why not go the Kumagawa route?
Maybe because she wants a goal?

Being detached from humanity dosen't mean you can't have or crave purpose in life. She specifically said that she wanted something to live for, and was desperate for a reason to continue her life, a purpose.

Part of that desperation is because she was detached from humankind. Actually fits in neatly when you think about, hehe.

You're especially going to question your purpose in life if you're a monster compared to your peers.

Zenkichi gave her a finite purpose; "Help others". Something that she did and just ended up alienating her even more.

So, obviously, when Kumagawa is all like "Hey, chill. There is no purpose whatsoever". She's not gonna run with it.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty much banking on this being what Nishio intended. Just an honest opinion.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Love requires reciprocation.
No. It dosen't.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrequited_love

This also dosen't indicate, at all, for either side, that she was or was not uncontrollably in-love with humanity at that age(3). So the rest of the point, I'll consider moot.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Her genetic 'love' became a love of people because people rejected, so she sought their love.
No-one rejected her at age 3. She barely had met anyone at that age.

Remember, you're arguing that she loved all of humanity, to the point that she does now, right off the bat.

So that you can claim that she only took Zenkichi's suggestion because she was uncontrollably in-love with humanity at age 3.

But, that just isn't as likely as my theory. Not to say that your's is inconpreheensible, just not nearly as likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
As for your Zenkichi example, when she proposed to him, she hadn't started helping people yet.
That's the point.

Because her love for people spawned from her interaction with humanity.

Which spawned form her goal.

Which spawned from her interaction with Zenkichi.

Hence, why she was willing to fully give herself to Zenkichi at that time.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
uite fine. If you think it's unlikeable and bad, fine. As I mentioned before, please don't treat it like a fact.
Erm.

You're the one who thinks I've been treating subjective opinions as facts.

Seriously, I pretty much stated that this is all my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't think 'people' do that. I think you have a habit of unfourtunate insinuations.
Insinuations?

So you admit that I'm not really stating my opinion is fact, you just believe I'm saying that in-between-the-lines, correct?

Bear with me, this is important.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The two of us are having a, for lack of a better word, debate and you make an utterly off topic comment about me being overly emotional.
Well, that's kinda because you were acting like that.

Since, out of the blue, you start going on about how I'm trying to pass off my opinion as fact.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Exactly, forums are the worst to gauge things like popularity, thanks to phenomenons like vocal minorities.
Indeed, but with Medaka, It's stranger. Nearly because almost everyone I've met online hates her guts. This is probably the most neutral forum towards her that I've seen, and it's pretty much divided 50/50. I don't know if those observations would reflect overall, but I don't particularly care for people outside of forums.

I mean, such things don't happen with a guy like Misogi. He's loved by 99% of the people I meet(including me).

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Since you are clearly biased, your opinion is ineligible, got it now?
Pffthehehehe.



Yes, clearly so. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
As long as you don't paint it as objective fact.
Refer to one of the above points or Lupus's posts.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't think that, though again, the fact that you think that is interesting.
You pretty much stated that I'm trying to paint my opinion as objective fact.

They go hand-in-hand, and could explain why you're acting so defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
This depends on if Medaka was seperate enough, monstrous enough for a purpose to not be better than nihilism. I don't think she was, though I can understand if you think she was.
Indeed. It's not as if his opinion is incompreheensible, just not as likely in our eyes.

For instance Medaka was excited for a purpose to be given to her by her doctors. She was clearly impressionable and looking for one. Someone telling her that there is none probably wouldn't sit very well.

You could even argue that such was bolstered by her disconnection with humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
It was his opinion that it was a flaw in Nisio's writing. "Flaw" is another thing that is (at least usually) subjective.
I am glad to see someone understands. How fresh.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:24   Link #11855
Wolfenstein
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Just for the purposes of illustration, I hope everyone forgives the double post, but take a look at this:

Spoiler:

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As you can see, Medaka did, indeed, consider not having a reason to live as a credible option, because it made her feel better.

Only, when she was given an actual finite goal, that made her feel even better.

So yeah, this definitely does not seem like the Kurokami which was hopelessly in-love with humanity at age 2. She was just a kid trying to feel better.

Notice how she became "her" after Zenkichi gave her a goal.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:46   Link #11856
Lupus753
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@Wolf: Your images aren't working again. I know the pages you're talking about, but it would be good to fix the links for other people here.
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Old 2013-01-26, 22:51   Link #11857
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Simple.

You're saying that Medaka was hopelessly in-love with humanity at age 3, and that's why she followed Zenkichi's mission for her.

When the simpler and more probable explanation would be that she was simply looking for her purpose in life, you know, as an impressionable child that she was. She was so naive that she even proposed to Zenkichi.
So because you believe your opinion is more likely than mine, I'm overanalysing. Rather than resorting to quasi personal attacks, why don't you try and convince me why ypur idea is more likely than mine?

Quote:
Maybe because she wants a goal?

Being detached from humanity dosen't mean you can't have or crave purpose in life. She specifically said that she wanted something to live for, and was desperate for a reason to continue her life, a purpose.

Part of that desperation is because she was detached from humankind. Actually fits in neatly when you think about, hehe.

You're especially going to question your purpose in life if you're a monster compared to your peers.

Zenkichi gave her a finite purpose; "Help others". Something that she did and just ended up alienating her even more.

So, obviously, when Kumagawa is all like "Hey, chill. There is no purpose whatsoever". She's not gonna run with it.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty much banking on this being what Nishio intended. Just an honest opinion.
You still haven't answered my question. Why would Medaka want a goal, rather than nothing, especially after meeting Kumagawa?

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No. It dosen't.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrequited_love

This also dosen't indicate, at all, for either side, that she was or was not uncontrollably in-love with humanity at that age(3). So the rest of the point, I'll consider moot
Perhaps I should be clearer. Real love is reciprocated. We have an example of what unrequited love becomes, thanks to Fukurou
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No-one rejected her at age 3. She barely had met anyone at that age.
As one of those pages you linked below mentioned, at that age, people told her that birth caused her mother to die. Plus, the fact a child that young is thinking seriously about their purpose in life is another red flag

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Remember, you're arguing that she loved all of humanity, to the point that she does now, right off the bat.

So that you can claim that she only took Zenkichi's suggestion because she was uncontrollably in-love with humanity at age 3.

But, that just isn't as likely as my theory. Not to say that your's is inconpreheensible, just not nearly as likely
If you think your theory is more likely, then prove it.

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That's the point.

Because her love for people spawned from her interaction with humanity.

Which spawned form her goal.

Which spawned from her interaction with Zenkichi.

Hence, why she was willing to fully give herself to Zenkichi at that time
Or she was always filled with love, which is why she gravitated towards Zenkichi's goal rather than Kumagawa's and that's the reason whe she was going to give herself to Zenkichi, because he created the path necessary for her love to start.


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Erm.

You're the one who thinks I've been treating subjective opinions as facts.

Seriously, I pretty much stated that this is all my opinion.
If you say so.


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Insinuations?

So you admit that I'm not really stating my opinion is fact, you just believe I'm saying that in-between-the-lines, correct?

Bear with me, this is important
If you weren't doing it on purpose, it'd be OK

Quote:
Well, that's kinda because you were acting like that.

Since, out of the blue, you start going on about how I'm trying to pass off my opinion as fact.
I didn't do anything out of the blue, since I gave my reasons why. In any case, you haven't told me what that has to do with our little debate here.

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Indeed, but with Medaka, It's stranger. Nearly because almost everyone I've met online hates her guts. This is probably the most neutral forum towards her that I've seen, and it's pretty much divided 50/50. I don't know if those observations would reflect overall, but I don't particularly care for people outside of forums
You see, since you, by your own admission, are part of those that hate Medaka, obviously you're going to believe that. You focus on those that share your opinion and since it's a vocal minority, it seems like there are more people that support your views.

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Pffthehehehe.



Yes, clearly so. My bad.
As long as you get it.

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You pretty much stated that I'm trying to paint my opinion as objective fact.

They go hand-in-hand, and could explain why you're acting so defensively.
Again, I don't think everything you do is some kind of personal attack, and I've stated that. The fact that you ignore that and post something incorrect is somethng I think of as a quasi personal attack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Just for the purposes of illustration, I hope everyone forgives the double post, but take a look at this:

As you can see, Medaka did, indeed, consider not having a reason to live as a credible option, because it made her feel better.

Only, when she was given an actual finite goal, that made her feel even better.

So yeah, this definitely does not seem like the Kurokami which was hopelessly in-love with humanity at age 2. She was just a kid trying to feel better.

Notice how she became "her" after Zenkichi gave her a goal.
Again, you miss the point. Why would having no reason to live make her feel better, rather than feel nothing? If she was already that far, it should have been all the same. Why did getting a goal make her feel better, rather than nothing at all? The reason Zenkichi's goal made her feel better is because it is a way for her to be close to the humans she loves.
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Old 2013-01-26, 23:02   Link #11858
Lupus753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You still haven't answered my question. Why would Medaka want a goal, rather than nothing, especially after meeting Kumagawa?
Perhaps it is human nature - especially as children - to prefer goals, even subconsciously. However, this is personal philosophy and there's no telling if Isin believes that.

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Perhaps I should be clearer. Real love is reciprocated. We have an example of what unrequited love becomes, thanks to Fukurou.
Love is no less real or heartfelt simply because it is not mutual.

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If you think your theory is more likely, then prove it.
I wouldn't say proof, just evidence. But I'm not sure if you consider those two to be quite different.


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If you say so.
You've never brought up a good example of him stating his opinion to be objective.

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You see, since you, by your own admission, are part of those that hate Medaka, obviously you're going to believe that. You focus on those that share your opinion and since it's a vocal minority, it seems like there are more people that support your views.
I kind of agree here, as I've found Medaka fans on GameFAQs and myanimelist. Besides, one should look at the character polls held by Shonen Jump. It's still possible that support for her differs by age or nationality.
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Old 2013-01-26, 23:19   Link #11859
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
Perhaps it is human nature - especially as children - to prefer goals, even subconsciously. However, this is personal philosophy and there's no telling if Isin believes that.
As I said before, I would believe that if we weren't talking about Medaka. Why would a child so far apart from people prefer a goal over nothing.

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Love is no less real or heartfelt simply because it is not mutual
True, but unrequited love is surely less satisfying than mutual love. She wants to love people and for them to love her back.



Quote:
I wouldn't say proof, just evidence. But I'm not sure if you consider those two to be quite different.
Depending on the situation...

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You've never brought up a good example of him stating his opinion to be objective.
As I said he insinuates.


I kind of agree here, as I've found Medaka fans on GameFAQs and myanimelist. Besides, one should look at the character polls held by Shonen Jump. It's still possible that support for her differs by age or nationality.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, Medaka fans can be found in many places, it's just that unlike haters, they don't usually make a spectacle of themselves.


As for differences in nationality, I hear this come up a lot whenever Japanese fans like stuff that some American fans don't. At times likes that, I'm reminded of Serial Experiments Lain. To cut a long story short, that show was written so that Japanese and Western viewers would differing views, but both sides had the same reaction. We really aren't all that different than them.
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Old 2013-01-26, 23:36   Link #11860
Lupus753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
As I said before, I would believe that if we weren't talking about Medaka. Why would a child so far apart from people prefer a goal over nothing.
It's hard to impossible to tell in what ways she's different from humans. Personally, I felt that she had human and understandable reactions and motivations even as a child. Actually, she seems to get less comprehensible the older she gets, though that's probably more because we've seen far more of her as a teen.

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True, but unrequited love is surely less satisfying than mutual love. She wants to love people and for them to love her back.

Is satisfying what you mean by "real"? Okay, then.

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I kind of agree here, as I've found Medaka fans on GameFAQs and myanimelist. Besides, one should look at the character polls held by Shonen Jump. It's still possible that support for her differs by age or nationality.

Exactly, Medaka fans can be found in many places, it's just that unlike haters, they don't usually make a spectacle of themselves.


As for differences in nationality, I hear this come up a lot whenever Japanese fans like stuff that some American fans don't. At times likes that, I'm reminded of Serial Experiments Lain. To cut a long story short, that show was written so that Japanese and Western viewers would differing views, but both sides had the same reaction. We really aren't all that different than them.
Just because it didn't happen there doesn't mean it doesn't still happen fairly often. I'm reminded of the Japanese and American reactions to Gundam Seed: Destiny. I'm just saying it sometimes occurs and might have here.
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