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Old 2013-01-25, 22:44   Link #31761
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. We know Ikuko mentioned Rokkenjima to Tohya but we've not the scene about how it went.
Then we know Tohya woke up and found Ikuko reading on the pc some info on Rokkenjima and he started remembering something.
We also know he wrote at least 3/6 books, some of which apparently before Ange disappeared.
It is actually revealed in EP8 that Ikuko was researching Rokkenjima in order to write a story of her own、 though as I can't access the games right now the title eludes me...something along the lines of 黒something島殺人事件.
She must have taken his sudden fits as something productive or she would have unlikely changed her whole concept into writing about Rokkenjima directly, going so far as to write in the style of the message bottles.

This is excatly what would make a Yasu-Ikuko insanely evil, because she'd be simply willfully continuing to torture Battler, exactly in the sense of "this is the torture that will torment you for all eternity", for the sake of her game.
If Ikuko was just a Witch Hunter, she'd be doing it at least only out of curiosity and maybe with some belief that it is better to know than not to. She'd be morally questionable in that she clearly seems fine with letting somebody suffer for the sake of 'her' art, but it would be as much her quest for the truth as Touya's.
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Old 2013-01-25, 23:27   Link #31762
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It is actually revealed in EP8 that Ikuko was researching Rokkenjima in order to write a story of her own、 though as I can't access the games right now the title eludes me...something along the lines of 黒something島殺人事件.
She must have taken his sudden fits as something productive or she would have unlikely changed her whole concept into writing about Rokkenjima directly, going so far as to write in the style of the message bottles.

This is excatly what would make a Yasu-Ikuko insanely evil, because she'd be simply willfully continuing to torture Battler, exactly in the sense of "this is the torture that will torment you for all eternity", for the sake of her game.
If Ikuko was just a Witch Hunter, she'd be doing it at least only out of curiosity and maybe with some belief that it is better to know than not to. She'd be morally questionable in that she clearly seems fine with letting somebody suffer for the sake of 'her' art, but it would be as much her quest for the truth as Touya's.
Hum... I can't find a part saying she wanted to write a story, apparently she was just intrigued/entertained by the forgeries.
And writing copying Maria's style was the premise for the forgeries, if I'm not wrong it as also said in Ep 4.

And we don't know how she reacted to his fits nor if she continued to push Rokkenjima material onto him even if he was unwilling to read it.

Tohya rejected the idea he was Battler so he could have rejected any suggestion of dropping the Rokkenjima argument.

Or he could have written the drafts for the books after he recovered his memory as he's in charge for the drafting. Or while he was trying to deny he wasn't Battler as a way to prove himself he wasn't.

Even if it was Yasu that caused his memory to begin returning... there's no proof she forced him to write regardless from her being Yasu or not. Or that she meant harm to Battler.

And anyway I note that are two the accusations that are moved to Ikuko-Yasu:
One that she hid the truth to him therefore hampering his process of recovering his memory, the other that she tried to make him recover his memory.

In short, whatever she does it's evil.

Also there's plenty of people that manage to recover their memory without having fits that cause them to end up on wheelchairs or worse and I don't think Ikuko had a medical degree or experience with amnesiac patients.

Considering that previously Tohya was trying to recover his memory and we don't know when he stopped due to his headache and if he told Ikuko he didn't want to remember anymore there's also the chance that, if and I'm saying if, she encoraged the return of her memory, she did it under the belief it was what he wanted and that wouldn't cause him harm.

Really, it's entirely possible Ikuko was purely evil regardless of her identity in what she did with Tohya, but it's also possible she didn't have ill intentions toward him and that things simply turned out wrong.

Quote:
`"You've been pretty hooked by that computer lately, Ikuko-san. Did you find an interesting article or something?"`\
`"......It may be a bit juvenile, but it's still pretty interesting. ......You know, that Rokkenjima incident."`\
`"......Rokkenjima.........?"`\
`"I told you about the Rokkenjima mystery a few days ago, remember? It's been really huge on the net lately. The discussions, theories, and even the Forgeries have been quite entertaining. ......Forgeries are stories, all based on the premise that yet another message bottle signed by Ushiromiya Maria existed and drifted to one of the nearby islands......"`\
`Ikuko kept showing off her knowledge of the subject.`
`......However, ......a huge bell was clanging inside my head.`
`The noise was so great that I thought my head would split open.`\
`Unable to tell what was the floor and what was the ceiling, ......I crumpled and clutched at my head...`\
`"Tohya......are you okay...?!"`
`"......My head......hurts............"`
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Old 2013-01-26, 00:42   Link #31763
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Concerning that I find it interesting on the other hand how many people ignore what the actual meta-plotline of Requiem is. This is not a story presented by Ikuko/Touya/Featherine, this is a preparation of pieces presented TO Featherine by Bernkastel.
We already know that Featherine likes to have people read stories she already knows (or even wrote herself) to her. She already knows everything. All she's ever looking for is a new perspective on the same events.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I would agree that EP7 can be inserted into real life events as well, but I would rather assume it to be the general collection of evidence. It is important that the acting characters are NOT the usual cast after all.
Except that, according to the meta-narrative, this "general collection of evidence" was made available specifically by the use of Theatergoing Authority, which itself was depicted as a special, forbidden privilege granted to Will, and only Will, who only accepted it because he was forced to (in fact, Will's involvement was coerced every step of the way). And the answer Will arrives upon is only expressed by a nod and a wink between him and Claire.

So what we have is a person who:
  1. is unrelated and disinterested in the Rokkenjima incident.
  2. is well-versed in the stories about it.
  3. is trapped in a situation where he is made to solve it.
  4. is granted special access to information about it.
  5. keeps his conclusion private.
Who is this person, if not Touya?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We don't know why she happened to mention Rokkenjima the first time, although apparently Tohya wasn't affected by it at all but in the second it seems entirely casual Tohya discovers her at the pc and he's the one showing interest in what she was looking at. When she explains and he starts showing signs of distress she stops.

So where do you see evidence in how she purposely tortured Battler with it?

She even offered him to have brain surgery earlier to stop his headaches and she even supported the idea he should met Ange when Ange asked to met him.
Tohya even went to various hospitals.

If we can claim Ikuko's behaviour toward him wasn't correct as she tried to keep the incident hidden, well, apparently afterward she tried to redeem herself by offering him medical care and trying to help him to reunite with his family.
Yes, I see (Yasu)Ikuko as a very conflicted person when it comes to the whole Touya/Battler issue. By the end she had clearly given up on Battler and had regretted what she had done to Touya. Beatrice's sequence of "deaths" in EP4 and EP5 could be said to account for the emotional process she went through.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
This is excatly what would make a Yasu-Ikuko insanely evil, because she'd be simply willfully continuing to torture Battler, exactly in the sense of "this is the torture that will torment you for all eternity", for the sake of her game.
Just the fact that meta-Battler is exposed to the bottle stories at all suggests that Touya himself became familiar with them. It's hard to imagine Touya having done so not of his own volition (not to mention his part in writing the forgeries). Whoever Ikuko may have been, or what agenda she might have had in her writing, Touya was still the one who decided for himself whether or not to be involved with the stories about Rokkenjima.

In other words, Touya willfully allowed himself to be "tortured", which makes me wonder if it's appropriate to even call it "torture" in the first place.
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Old 2013-01-26, 04:36   Link #31764
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We already know that Featherine likes to have people read stories she already knows (or even wrote herself) to her. She already knows everything. All she's ever looking for is a new perspective on the same events.
False. Featherine's behavior in EP6 ???? and onward is motivated entirely by her wanting to see the truth of what really happened.

Quote:
Except that, according to the meta-narrative, this "general collection of evidence" was made available specifically by the use of Theatergoing Authority, which itself was depicted as a special, forbidden privilege granted to Will, and only Will, who only accepted it because he was forced to (in fact, Will's involvement was coerced every step of the way). And the answer Will arrives upon is only expressed by a nod and a wink between him and Claire.

So what we have is a person who:

is unrelated and disinterested in the Rokkenjima incident.
is well-versed in the stories about it.
is trapped in a situation where he is made to solve it.
is granted special access to information about it.
keeps his conclusion private.

Who is this person, if not Touya?
I'm interested in this Will!Touya idea, but for the sake of argument I'd point out that Will is deliberately drawn as distinct from Battler in Clair's eyes in that "Battler was too late; it doesn't matter who it is, though, as long as someone understands her."

Apparently, Battler learning the truth is not sufficient because he did that after Beatrice died (already mirroring Touya's understanding). I would wager that Will represents a well-meaning non-goat who understands Yasu without having any personal connection to her, and all the other stuff is just for the sake of the episode narrative. Toya's not being pinched in the ass, afterall, or was he asked to abandon shit with threats of violence and then stayed involved anyway.

Quote:
having done so not of his own volition (not to mention his part in writing the forgeries). Whoever Ikuko may have been, or what agenda she might have had in her writing, Touya was still the one who decided for himself whether or not to be involved with the stories about Rokkenjima.

In other words, Touya willfully allowed himself to be "tortured", which makes me wonder if it's appropriate to even call it "torture" in the first place.
It is, legally speaking. :P

But Toya's arm WAS twisted. Ikuko exposed him to it and kept prodding him to give it a chance, and once he was involved he was guilt-tripped by recollections of Ange. He even confesses that he spent years trying to remember enough so that he could atleast give Ange a proper apology.

And if Ikuko is Yasu, then she's pretty much a sociopath.
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Old 2013-01-26, 06:43   Link #31765
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Has Ryu07 ever alluded or alluded to the Ikuko=Yasu theory before? I wonder if its just a completely unintentional thing that people are coming up, or if Ryu07 believed that people would theorize this when writing Episode 8.

He seemed to have wanted people to talk about Umineko for a long time, so...
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Old 2013-01-26, 07:51   Link #31766
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Has Ryu07 ever alluded or alluded to the Ikuko=Yasu theory before? I wonder if its just a completely unintentional thing that people are coming up, or if Ryu07 believed that people would theorize this when writing Episode 8.

He seemed to have wanted people to talk about Umineko for a long time, so...
As far as I know he never talked in his interviews about Ikuko... unless there are other interviews I'm missing. So Ikuko=Yasu can be THE solution he planned, one that can be alternative to another solution but still planned by him, a solution that by coincidence can be reached but that Ryukishi didn't plan at all or something that Ryukishi would reject with red truth if he were asked an opinion about it.

Ryukishi didn't gave us solutions for all his misteries and sometimes he deliberately seemed to have fun if readers could come up with more solutions (like the thing about Battler's letter in which he, more or less, let everyone free to come up with his solution).

That's why I'm waiting for more info in Ep 8.
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Old 2013-01-26, 08:01   Link #31767
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Has Ryu07 ever alluded or alluded to the Ikuko=Yasu theory before? I wonder if its just a completely unintentional thing that people are coming up, or if Ryu07 believed that people would theorize this when writing Episode 8.

He seemed to have wanted people to talk about Umineko for a long time, so...
Well there are some similarities between them:

-Both originate from a "rich family"
-Both are authors that feel too embarrassed to show their stories to others directly (only later this changes for Ikuko)
-Both are good at creating an intended effect on others by changing their outward appearance (Yasu's "crossdressing" and Ikuko appearing as if she wouldn't age)


Also I don't understand how people seem to be so fixed on the YasuIkuko=Evil and RandomIkuko=Grey. How do you get such an idea? The reasons for RandomIkuko=Grey seem very weak. "Curiosity"? Well, sorry Bern but curiosity killed the cat.

That aside I agree with jjblue1 about us not being able to judge anyone because we have no idea what happened on Rokkenjima.
For all we know Eva could have caused Battler's "brain damage" by shooting him, by injuring him badly using her CQC, or by her becoming "psycho" and traumatizing Battler with words.. In this case it would be understandable why YasuIkuko does not want Battler to go "back to his family". Of course it is also possible that YasuIkuko did not know everything that happened herself (she could not be everywhere at the same time), so by making Tohya remember his part of the incident she would gain a better understanding of what happened on Rokkenjima. This would make her "just as bad as Ange", or perhaps the "Ange" of EP8 was actually YasuIkuko? Well who knows...

Lots of speculation from everyone
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Old 2013-01-26, 08:21   Link #31768
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
False. Featherine's behavior in EP6 ???? and onward is motivated entirely by her wanting to see the truth of what really happened.
Hm, I guess that is how it's portrayed, at least in that ????.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm interested in this Will!Touya idea, but for the sake of argument I'd point out that Will is deliberately drawn as distinct from Battler in Clair's eyes in that "Battler was too late; it doesn't matter who it is, though, as long as someone understands her."
Touya isn't Battler, so there's nothing strange about it.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Apparently, Battler learning the truth is not sufficient because he did that after Beatrice died (already mirroring Touya's understanding).
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. Is it that it's weird that Will was "in time" even though Battler wasn't?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Toya's not being pinched in the ass, afterall
Of course he is. It happens all the time at his badminton club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Has Ryu07 ever alluded or alluded to the Ikuko=Yasu theory before? I wonder if its just a completely unintentional thing that people are coming up, or if Ryu07 believed that people would theorize this when writing Episode 8.

He seemed to have wanted people to talk about Umineko for a long time, so...
I don't know of any time he referred to it in an interview or anything, but that doesn't mean much. He hardly even confirms ShKanon outside the game. I've seen Ikuko=Yasu theories on Japanese sites, though.

But if nothing else, the number-pun between Ikuko and Yasu had to be intentional on Ryukishi's part, so I really doubt that he would be surprised at the existence of Ikuko=Yasu theories. I don't mean to say that the number-pun absolutely means that Ikuko=Yasu, though, since there are a few explanations for it that don't involve them being the same person. Still, unless it's just a lolredherring, some kind of connection is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Also I don't understand how people seem to be so fixed on the YasuIkuko=Evil and RandomIkuko=Grey. How do you get such an idea?
Completely agree. I don't get it either.
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Old 2013-01-26, 10:19   Link #31769
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Touya isn't Battler, so there's nothing strange about it.
An interesting thing about Will and Battler is also they shouldn't appear together or so it was said in a tip.

It reminds me of ShKanontrice and Lion where Lion shouldn't exist in a world where there's ShKanontrice.

So my usual interpretation is that Will is the detective's alterego of Tohya... however, had Battler never turned into Tohya Will could end up being never created...
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Old 2013-01-26, 15:32   Link #31770
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Note that Will and Battler do in fact meet at the party in ep8:
Quote:
bfly1 0
bg Mhal_1aN,22
ld c,WIL_nayamuA1,23
`"Willard's the name.`@` I'm just a passing stranger who got caught up in a game you know nothing about."`\

ld l,DlA_defA2,23
`"He is an Inquisitor of Heresy of the Great Court, like MYSELF.`@` A truly great one, though he is now RETIRED."`@

ld r,BUT_FutekiA5,24
`"I see. If you're Dlanor's friend, you can't be anyone bad.`@` Please, make yourself at home."`\
Although this is one of the only times they're ever displayed on the same screen at the same time. But they act as if they do not know each other on at least the meta-level.
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Old 2013-01-26, 16:21   Link #31771
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Also I don't understand how people seem to be so fixed on the YasuIkuko=Evil and RandomIkuko=Grey. How do you get such an idea? The reasons for RandomIkuko=Grey seem very weak. "Curiosity"? Well, sorry Bern but curiosity killed the cat.
Because if Ikuko is Yasu then she's fucking with an amnesiac person to uncover memories she herself already has, and he's not even the person she wants him to be. She's basically taking a third person and forcing them to adopt the selfhood of this stranger she used to like.

Meanwhile Ikuko as a random bystander is basically trying to help an amnesiac person she found, and her harm done to him is pretty much entirely unintentional because she has no clue what he's at risk of remembering.

Yasu!Ikuko has a nasty ulterior motive based around lying to, manipulating, and essentially brainwashing him. Random!Ikuko has no ulterior motive by definition.

Quote:
Touya isn't Battler, so there's nothing strange about it.
Except he has his memories by the time the first six episodes are written.

Quote:
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. Is it that it's weird that Will was "in time" even though Battler wasn't?
The metaphor here is that by the time Toya could possibly remember, Yasu is dead in every meaningful way. But to someone like Will reading things for the first time, Yasu is 'alive' until he finishes reading. Will figured it out 'in time'.

Quote:
Of course he is. It happens all the time at his badminton club.
You can totally get your ass pinched and play badminton in a wheelchair.

Quote:
But if nothing else, the number-pun between Ikuko and Yasu had to be intentional on Ryukishi's part, so I really doubt that he would be surprised at the existence of Ikuko=Yasu theories. I don't mean to say that the number-pun absolutely means that Ikuko=Yasu, though, since there are a few explanations for it that don't involve them being the same person. Still, unless it's just a lolredherring, some kind of connection is there.

But if nothing else, the number-pun between Ikuko and Asumu had to be intentional on Ryukishi's part, so I really doubt that he would be surprised at the existence of Ikuko=Asumu theories. I don't mean to say that the number-pun absolutely means that Ikuko=Asumu, though, since there are a few explanations for it that don't involve them being the same person. Still, unless it's just a lolredherring, some kind of connection is there.

Quote:
An interesting thing about Will and Battler is also they shouldn't appear together or so it was said in a tip.
Context is important. In the TIP you're referring to, 'Will and Battler shouldn't appear together' because one overshadows the other. Either Will is the significantly more competent detective or Battler is the God Mode with all the answers. They're separated to maintain dramatic tension, not to hint at their true natures.

Also Williard killed like a thousand witches and is a former Inquisitor of Heresy. How does this convert to Toya?
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Old 2013-01-26, 19:03   Link #31772
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Except he has his memories by the time the first six episodes are written.
Yeah, but not of Rokkenjima, 1986. Unless he lied to Yukari about not being able to remember, which is also quite possible.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But if nothing else, the number-pun between Ikuko and Asumu had to be intentional on Ryukishi's part...
I get your sarcasm, but I don't get your point. As far as my Japanese knowledge goes, there's nothing even close to a number-pun that could be made to link Asumu to Ikuko.
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Old 2013-01-26, 19:34   Link #31773
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Note that Will and Battler do in fact meet at the party in ep8:

Although this is one of the only times they're ever displayed on the same screen at the same time. But they act as if they do not know each other on at least the meta-level.
Yes and the same applies for Beato and Lion.
And Kinzo who should be dead. And Ange who shouldn't be there. And also there are two gameboards open at the same time... and everything is rather messy...
Ep 8 seems a rather special episode, similar to Ep 7 that crammed together two universes so that in Lion's words people would tell fact that happened in a world where Lion didn't exist.

Of course, as we don't know why Will and Battler shouldn't show up together (and I can't find anymore the point in which it was said... -_-), it's entirely possible for everyone to come up with a different theory.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:21   Link #31774
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because if Ikuko is Yasu then she's fucking with an amnesiac person to uncover memories she herself already has, and he's not even the person she wants him to be. She's basically taking a third person and forcing them to adopt the selfhood of this stranger she used to like.
You know that from..... where? The forgeries? Or did you perhaps get a glimpse of RokkenjimaPrime?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Meanwhile Ikuko as a random bystander is basically trying to help an amnesiac person she found, and her harm done to him is pretty much entirely unintentional because she has no clue what he's at risk of remembering.

Yasu!Ikuko has a nasty ulterior motive based around lying to, manipulating, and essentially brainwashing him. Random!Ikuko has no ulterior motive by definition.
Again, you base that from your knowledge about the forgeries.

I show you what you essentially do: Let's assume Eva went Psycho and killed everyone:



If Ikuko is a random stranger then she's fucking with an amnesiac person to selfishly compensate for her loneliness and inferiority complex, by having him as her private "talk-buddy-slave" and then she realizes that she can use him to make money and start a great novelist career by using his knowledge from the Rokkenjima incident that he feels uncomfortable about! She's basically taking a traumatized survivor from Rokkenjima and forces memories out of him that cleary hurt him to remember, just so she can have a great and successful career!

Meanwhile Ikuko as Yasu is taking care of him and even though overchallenged with this task, trying her best, and her harm done to him is pretty much entirely unintentional because she was convinced that he was hurting because he did only partially remember and because of that tried to made him remember so he can fully remember and "close that case and move on".

Random!Ikuko has a nasty ulterior motive based around abducting a random defenseless person, manipulating him, making him her fulltime roommate (and possibly her "boyfried") and essentially just using him as a cash cow. Yasu!Ikuko has no ulterior motive because she was just protecting him from Eva.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:36   Link #31775
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Ikuko was in fact that one who hit him, no matter how many times she says she didn't. This is because Ikuko=Yasu and Tohya=Will His nerves haven't been absoutely and completely gone, and it causes a stinging sensation in his butt. So when Lion pinches Will's butt, it's really a symbol for the feeling that may or may not be returning to Tohya's legs.

GreyZone, your theory only works in that instance, but what if it wasn't Eva who killed everyone? What if Yasu had let the bomb explode as she planned and written about in her bottles? Now what is she doing with Tohya?

Quote:
Also Williard killed like a thousand witches and is a former Inquisitor of Heresy
This goes back to genious Battler theory. How well read is he supposed to be, especially in the mystery genre? What happens if you rip out the confession out of "And then there was none"? UN Owen becomes a 400 year old witch, according to Yasu. Battler was supposed to be well read and really good at solving mystery novels. All those witches that he killed, or rather books that he finished.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:36   Link #31776
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
You know that from..... where? The forgeries? Or did you perhaps get a glimpse of RokkenjimaPrime?



Again, you base that from your knowledge about the forgeries.

I show you what you essentially do: Let's assume Eva went Psycho and killed everyone:



If Ikuko is a random stranger then she's fucking with an amnesiac person to selfishly compensate for her loneliness and inferiority complex, by having him as her private "talk-buddy-slave" and then she realizes that she can use him to make money and start a great novelist career by using his knowledge from the Rokkenjima incident that he feels uncomfortable about! She's basically taking a traumatized survivor from Rokkenjima and forces memories out of him that cleary hurt him to remember, just so she can have a great and successful career!

Meanwhile Ikuko as Yasu is taking care of him and even though overchallenged with this task, trying her best, and her harm done to him is pretty much entirely unintentional because she was convinced that he was hurting because he did only partially remember and because of that tried to made him remember so he can fully remember and "close that case and move on".

Random!Ikuko has a nasty ulterior motive based around abducting a random defenseless person, manipulating him, making him her fulltime roommate (and possibly her "boyfried") and essentially just using him as a cash cow. Yasu!Ikuko has no ulterior motive because she was just protecting him from Eva.
You are pretty wrong here. If Eva went psycho and Ikuko is Yasu then she's even worse of a person in this scenario. Because she's now willingly letting a deranged murderer take care of a small child.

The first thing you'd do would be to try to get some form of justice so that she doesn't harm Ange. Not take up a different life, seclude yourself and then pick up an amnesiac Battler to do whatever she wanted to do with him. See it all comes back to her being slightly/fully insane.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:44   Link #31777
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
You are pretty wrong here. If Eva went psycho and Ikuko is Yasu then she's even worse of a person in this scenario. Because she's now willingly letting a deranged murderer take care of a small child.

The first thing you'd do would be to try to get some form of justice so that she doesn't harm Ange. Not take up a different life, seclude yourself and then pick up an amnesiac Battler to do whatever she wanted to do with him. See it all comes back to her being slightly/fully insane.
Ahh don't worry about that. If I take enough time I can work out a perfect solid solution to prove my theories by inserting even more assumptions. I think a fitting revision would be:

YasuIkuko was not aware that Eva killed everyone, so she made him remember to clear Eva's name if she is innocent, or get Ange into safety after confirming Eva's guilt. But Eva died before Battler fully remembered, or he didn't remember that aspect at all.

And as I said. Given enough time and assumptions I can go on like this. Blue truths are unlimited after all.
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Old 2013-01-26, 20:55   Link #31778
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Ahh don't worry about that.
I think this what RK07 thought every time a reader tripped on one of his plot holes.
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Old 2013-01-26, 21:46   Link #31779
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
You are pretty wrong here. If Eva went psycho and Ikuko is Yasu then she's even worse of a person in this scenario. Because she's now willingly letting a deranged murderer take care of a small child.

The first thing you'd do would be to try to get some form of justice so that she doesn't harm Ange. Not take up a different life, seclude yourself and then pick up an amnesiac Battler to do whatever she wanted to do with him. See it all comes back to her being slightly/fully insane.
If we go for this what if scenario I think Yasu should have proofs to accuse Eva and be believed. What if it's just her words against Eva's? (Battler in the beginning had no memory so she can't count on him to confirm her version)

They both would have a motive for killing everyone, the ineritance as they're both Kinzo's kids... however while Eva might be suspicious due to her economical problems she's Kinzo's legittimate child, loving aunt, wife and mother to some victims.
Yasu would be the illegittimate child born from incest who was first placed in a orphanage and then used as a servant by the Ushiromiya, who was an accomplice in hiding Kinzo's death and that got his money in 'illegittimate' ways.
Even if she tries to hide some things (and we don't know if this is possible as Eva might know them... everything depends on what had happened on Rokkenjima), let's face it, I would think it's more unlikely that Eva is the culprit than Yasu.

So yes, if she believes Eva is the culprit she shouldn't let Ange in her care... but if she can't prove Eva is the culprit... how many chances there are she would be believed? And would she be willing to risk everything for a chance to save Ange?

But the real problem is I think we're making assumptions based only on many theories.

Assuming Yasu is Ikuko:

Does Yasu know what happened in Rokkenjima or not?
Does she believe to know when in truth it was a misunderstanding (example: she saw Eva shooting at Kyrie but didn't know it was in self defence)?
Does Yasu believe Eva is the culprit or not?
Is Yasu taking care of Battler with Eva's approvation or not?
Did Yasu realize remembering might be too painful for Battler or not?
Did Yasu force him to remember or not?
If she did, was it because she thought it would be better for him or for herself?
Did Yasu force Battler to write those drafts or he decided to write them on his own, for his own reasons?
Did Battler recover his memory decently enough after the second time he heard about Rokkenjima but was in denial for a while or that time was just a tiny glimpse and it took him a lot of time to get an understandable picture?
Was Yasu on Rokkenjima or she had left already?
Did Yasu ever set in motion what lead to the tragedy or the siblings digged their graves by themselves?
And I guess more questions can be done...

For each answer you choose the scenario changes turning Yasu into a good or bad person.

The only thing we know for sure is:
Ikuko bribed the doctor to keep silent about Battler's incident.
There must be a reason for this.
If Ikuko is a stranger why is she doing this?
Either because she caused the incident or because she knew who Battler was and didn't want other people to discover it.

If she caused the incident and wanted to keep it hidden she's not that nice of a person, though we can say she tried to make up to it by taking care of Battler.

If she knew who Battler was... she's hiding the truth from him without an apparent reason. If she believes it was an incident she has no reason to keep him parted from his family, if she believes it wasn't an incident she has no way to know who was the culprit among Battler, Eva and the other Ushiromiya so it's weird she would risk to take in her house someone who could have killed all his family, included his nine years old cousin.

If she didn't cause the incident and didn't know who Battler was... why to bribe the doctor and take care of Battler?

For Yasu is easy to find explanations about why she would bribe the doctor and some of them can be nice while others definitely are not but for Ikuko... it gets harder to find nice logical explanations.

So, all in all, Yasu!Ikuko depending on how you build up her backstory has a 50% of being a jerk and a 50% of not being one but handing things messily and possibly in the wrong way while Stranger!Ikuko is in a worse situation.

So, have you a nice explanation on why Ikuko would bribe a doctor and then 'adopt' Tohya to balance things?

And after all this is said and done can we prove which theory is the right one or are we just running in circles?

Because in the end we can't prove who's Ikuko or her motive for acting nor if she actively tried to make Battler remember due to ill will or due to the belief it would be better for him so even if I enjoy making and reading theories... can we really prove 1 of them is true? Or are we merely creating more opposite solutions like it was done in Ep 5, basically allowing the solution 'a witch did it' exist as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I think this what RK07 thought every time a reader tripped on one of his plot holes.
LOL I wonder if that's the answer we would get were we to ask him about Ikuko and why she bribed the doctor and everything else...

Don't worry about Ikuko, she's just a plot contrivance as well as Tohya's amnesia and the whole thing about how he recovers his memory... anyway you can't solve Prime so don't think too hard about it or you'll only get a headache...
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Old 2013-01-26, 23:56   Link #31780
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Yeah, but not of Rokkenjima, 1986. Unless he lied to Yukari about not being able to remember, which is also quite possible.
Cool, but EP7 couldn't possibly have existed in 1986 so it's irrelevant?

Regardless, making Will represent Toya is redundant; Sorcerer Battler already embodies Toya. That's the entire point of his ascension as the Territory Lord.

Quote:
I get your sarcasm, but I don't get your point. As far as my Japanese knowledge goes, there's nothing even close to a number-pun that could be made to link Asumu to Ikuko.
Someone around here posted a pretty damn good one somewhere.

Not that it really matters; isn't the main number pun more to do with the "Toya Hachijou" name? The Toya was pretty important and 'Ikuko' isn't all that special, if I recall.

And of course, the entire number pun = 18 = Toya anyway.

Quote:
You know that from..... where? The forgeries? Or did you perhaps get a glimpse of RokkenjimaPrime?
Because Ikuko doesn't have amnesia, so if she's Yasu, then she knows what happened on Rokkenjima. She was there.

Quote:
Again, you base that from your knowledge about the forgeries.
The Forgeries have nothing to do with my reasoning, it's simple deductive logic.

Quote:
I show you what you essentially do: Let's assume Eva went Psycho and killed everyone:



If Ikuko is a random stranger then she's fucking with an amnesiac person to selfishly compensate for her loneliness and inferiority complex, by having him as her private "talk-buddy-slave" and then she realizes that she can use him to make money and start a great novelist career by using his knowledge from the Rokkenjima incident that he feels uncomfortable about! She's basically taking a traumatized survivor from Rokkenjima and forces memories out of him that cleary hurt him to remember, just so she can have a great and successful career!

Meanwhile Ikuko as Yasu is taking care of him and even though overchallenged with this task, trying her best, and her harm done to him is pretty much entirely unintentional because she was convinced that he was hurting because he did only partially remember and because of that tried to made him remember so he can fully remember and "close that case and move on".

Random!Ikuko has a nasty ulterior motive based around abducting a random defenseless person, manipulating him, making him her fulltime roommate (and possibly her "boyfried") and essentially just using him as a cash cow. Yasu!Ikuko has no ulterior motive because she was just protecting him from Eva.
This is stupid, and you KNOW it's stupid. Ikuko as a stranger doesn't entertain the idea of having Toya write with her until they've been living together for a considerable amount of time, meanwhile trying to get him healthy and recollecting his memories with no clear benefit to herself.

Also, there's no indication that the Hachijous are profiting off the Rokkenjima Forgeries since they...you know...post them on internet forums.

Meanwhile Yasu!Ikuko is willingly withholding information from Toya no matter how you slice it, and this is unethical because the uncertainty of everything is giving him extreme emotional trauma for literally over a decade.

Yasu!Ikuko has the means of easing Toya's self-torture in every possible situation, and does nothing about it. Random!Ikuko never has the means of ending it, and is thus absolved of responsibility.

Quote:
This goes back to genious Battler theory. How well read is he supposed to be, especially in the mystery genre? What happens if you rip out the confession out of "And then there was none"? UN Owen becomes a 400 year old witch, according to Yasu. Battler was supposed to be well read and really good at solving mystery novels. All those witches that he killed, or rather books that he finished.
Except even as a child Battler believes in the 'heart' of the mystery, and Will is specifically explained as having heartlessly killed those witches and acquired that appreciation for the 'heart' near the end of his career.

Quote:
Ahh don't worry about that. If I take enough time I can work out a perfect solid solution to prove my theories by inserting even more assumptions.
This is exactly why your rebuttal to me is bullshit. You had to make assumptions, while I only used the facts available. Check and mate.

Quote:
The only thing we know for sure is:
Ikuko bribed the doctor to keep silent about Battler's incident.
There must be a reason for this.
If Ikuko is a stranger why is she doing this?
Either because she caused the incident or because she knew who Battler was and didn't want other people to discover it.
None of the above. Battler is quite clearly the survivor of the Rokkenjima Incident because the faces of the 'victims', including Battler, are probably plastered all over the goddamn news and if Toya saw a doctor, his status as a living person, even as an amnesiac, has to be legally reported by the hospital, meaning that Toya will then be harassed by the paparazzi like Eva was and that's probably not good for a brain-damaged amnesiac with PTSD and severe emotional baggage and identity issues.

Quote:
For Yasu is easy to find explanations about why she would bribe the doctor and some of them can be nice while others definitely are not but for Ikuko... it gets harder to find nice logical explanations.
Ikuko is only difficult to explain if you forget that there's totally a world outside of Rokkenjima.
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