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Old 2013-01-27, 03:57   Link #3301
Kleeyook
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^^ That's probably the case, since I think that Kirito's opinion is bias. You remember he even tried to protect less advanced AIs in Aincrad, right (the average NPC in our real world)? That's how he is.

I believe I said something about how AI can make backups and copies of themselves (especially in SAO where the fictional tech enable such thing) while human can't. Humans can't. Cloning and transferring memory to the clone can't be done that easy. Clones already have their own life and souls which make transferring our memory to them like killing them. But Flunclight can be backed up and directly transfer to another machine, heck they don't even have human body.

SAO's Flunclight is fictional, the soul thing is something the author comes up with. I find it very questionable what is soul in SAO, afterlife is really something like oblivion?

The AI lived in rather different environment than humans. There is no war, I wonder if the concept of microorganism and virus exist there. They won't suffer from such thing in real world either, since they don't have the same body as ours. And like humans, they're not all that nice and their world is not really a utopia and dystopian one with people having their actions controlled by Taboo Index. Humans don't have such thing as right eye exploded when going against the law (as well as having it healed in a day, like creating an eyeball out of nothing).

God comes to us and tell us to obey and die? Of course we would not sit around waiting our demise. But if god set our flow of time to be 1000x slower than his world or make sure not to bring us to his realm while giving the power to overthrow him to us, it'd be OK especially if he's smart enough to never inform us. How many people here are atheists btw. It's even possible that god doesn't want to deal with the same dilemma regarding Flunclight that he never interferes with us.

But Kirito wants to bring those Flunclight to the real world. just how would we deal with such a person anyway?
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Old 2013-01-27, 04:16   Link #3302
Tusjecht
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We start by agreeing not to harm each other. The most basic compromise any two factions can settle for.

Quoting Lord Hood from Halo: Glasslands:

Quote:
We can't forgive, and we can't forget. But there's a third option which isn't related to either. It doesn't require us to be friends. We can simply both agree to stop killing each other.

Admiral Lord Hood to Thel 'Vadam, still known as the Arbiter
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Old 2013-01-27, 04:39   Link #3303
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
We start by agreeing not to harm each other. The most basic compromise any two factions can settle for.

Quoting Lord Hood from Halo: Glasslands:
All agreements can be broken...

If we're talking only about Flunclight then it's fine to tell them not to harm us, send all of them back to Underworld, set the time flow to 100x slower than real time and just keep the server running (the cost for keeping the server running without being able to make use of it for their true purpose is already high, but let's think of it as a mild punishment, it's not like Sea Turtle will remain forever).

But they'll ask for more... And Alice is already outside. What if instead of going back to their world, the'll cite bullshit about their human right and remain on our world as our citizens, then they want to procreate and more? What if the Flunclight are so advanced they can hack all military computers and skynet us on a whim?

AIs are developed by military to kill another human beings in wars. Even if the problem with Flunclight created by RATH is solved, another idiot will just make the same situation happened again.

Flunclight are not nice, the only reason they didn't kill each other and go to war is because the limitation we simply give them. But they can always harass each other by loop holes. The Dark Region is different and more of real world than that. They should experience war, natural catastrophes, fear of extinction like us.

The thing with such sentient AIs is very complicated. We created them as tools, but some morons might want them as their waifu... I don't want to hear thing like humanity deserve its destruction by creating advanced AI when in truth a few assholes bring it about.
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Old 2013-01-27, 04:59   Link #3304
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
All agreements can be broken...

If we're talking only about Flunclight then it's fine to tell them not to harm us, send all of them back to Underworld, set the time flow to 100x slower than real time and just keep the server running (the cost for keeping the server running without being able to make use of it for their true purpose is already high, but let's think of it as a mild punishment, it's not like Sea Turtle will remain forever).

But they'll ask for more... And Alice is already outside. What if instead of going back to their world, the'll cite bullshit about their human right and remain on our world as our citizens, then they want to procreate and more? What if the Flunclight are so advanced they can hack all military computers and skynet us on a whim?

AIs are developed by military to kill another human beings in wars. Even if the problem with Flunclight created by RATH is solved, another idiot will just make the same situation happened again.

Flunclight are not nice, the only reason they didn't kill each other and go to war is because the limitation we simply give them. But they can always harass each other by loop holes. The Dark Region is different and more of real world than that. They should experience war, natural catastrophes, fear of extinction like us.

The thing with such sentient AIs is very complicated. We created them as tools, but some morons might want them as their waifu... I don't want to hear thing like humanity deserve its destruction by creating advanced AI when in truth a few assholes bring it about.
I feel obliged to correct you on several points. You've made them for quite a few times now, so it can't be called typos now:

- It's spelt FluctLight, shorthand for Fluctuating Light.

-Timeflow in Underworld is 1000 times faster than real time.

Also, did you read Flere's spoilers about Cardinal?

Spoiler for What Cardinal had to say about UW's residents:


It's highly unlikely the FluctLights would ever engineer a skynet scenario, all Alice wanted for them was respect as human souls.

If sentient AIs actually reach the level of intelligence as the FluctLights, the least we can do to prevent a future conflict is to offer the olive branch first. Any agreement can be broken, yes, but a mutually respected agreement?
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Old 2013-01-27, 06:27   Link #3305
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
I feel obliged to correct you on several points. You've made them for quite a few times now, so it can't be called typos now:

- It's spelt FluctLight, shorthand for Fluctuating Light.

-Timeflow in Underworld is 1000 times faster than real time.

Also, did you read Flere's spoilers about Cardinal?

Spoiler for What Cardinal had to say about UW's residents:


It's highly unlikely the FluctLights would ever engineer a skynet scenario, all Alice wanted for them was respect as human souls.

If sentient AIs actually reach the level of intelligence as the FluctLights, the least we can do to prevent a future conflict is to offer the olive branch first. Any agreement can be broken, yes, but a mutually respected agreement?
- Sorry, my bad. FluctLight

- Umm, I know that Time Flow in Underworld is 1000x faster than real world, that's why it's bad and should be reset to 1000x slower. Isn't it the very reason the administrator became too powerful that RATH would have no chance in trying to take back Underworld? It's 300 hundreds years in there and their civilization is already so advance, in a world where war and natural catastrophe doesn't exist to stop them. If this keeps up then the FluctLight would be superior than us and they wouldn't categorize us as being equal but lower once they gain control over their own survival.

Spoiler for Negative traits:


FluctLight might be as sentient as us, but they shouldn't be recognized the same as humans because they lack things humans have. Living in such spoiled environment like Underworld will shape their way of life to be too mild (yet they don't seem that nice). Magic exists in their world that overrule physics. Having limitation set on them not to break law. Their very existence will change our current world for better or worse (like having your jobs stolen by AI or having to make up ridiculous bullshit as payment to AIs if they were to want payment they don't seem to need.
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Old 2013-01-27, 10:31   Link #3306
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
FluctLight might be as sentient as us, but they shouldn't be recognized the same as humans because they lack things humans have. Living in such spoiled environment like Underworld will shape their way of life to be too mild (yet they don't seem that nice). Magic exists in their world that overrule physics. Having limitation set on them not to break law. Their very existence will change our current world for better or worse (like having your jobs stolen by AI or having to make up ridiculous bullshit as payment to AIs if they were to want payment they don't seem to need.
I'm pretty tired, but I guess I still have energy to say, others will find it contentious that you claim the Underworld is 'spoiled'. The nobles give the lower classes plenty of hardship already. And, don't we follow rules as well? They're called criminal law, penal code, et cetera ad infinitum. Your point about work isn't much different from a xenophobic argument against foreign labour either.
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Old 2013-01-27, 13:49   Link #3307
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
I'm pretty tired, but I guess I still have energy to say, others will find it contentious that you claim the Underworld is 'spoiled'. The nobles give the lower classes plenty of hardship already. And, don't we follow rules as well? They're called criminal law, penal code, et cetera ad infinitum. Your point about work isn't much different from a xenophobic argument against foreign labour either.
My bad, I forgot to mention about those laws since I was too focused in Taboo Index where your right eye exploded if you broke it... I'm very embarrassed about that.

Yeah, Underworld isn't much different from the peaceful country that most labour and middle class people have to work like slaves, fearing about losing jobs, enduring insults from their superior. But at least horrible things like murder rarely happen there. Although the authority of the nobles are just too high and forcing sex on lower class women is common there. But there's no war or natural catastrophes there.

Spoiler for The main differences:


In fantasy setting, I don't count races like elves or dwarves to be the same as humans. They may have their own right but they're definitely not the same.

^^ Well, I feel stupid for citing elves. The hippy race who isn't really that nice. It's quite pathetic. ^^

Let's just say that they should be viewed as human beings in their own world since they can experience things close to humans, but in real world, I'd feel like an idiot trying to give something like food to an AI when they clearly don't need. And digital assets like the weapons and equipments and even food in game hold no value in real world because they aren't the real thing, hence impossible to really treat them as the same as us.

Last edited by Kleeyook; 2013-01-27 at 16:27.
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Old 2013-01-27, 18:33   Link #3308
Flere821
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... Kleeyook, it seems you have a LOT of misconceptions here:
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Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
How about we set the time flow in Underworld to 100x slower than us and never bring any of those guys to the real world? The flow rate would be too slow that almost nothing happen and we don't have to be paranoid about how advanced they have become or they go skynet on us
Not gonna happen, if only for the fact by the end of Alicization UW was locked down but not placed into stasis. They had around 500 years or so of progress after SK!Kirito left, they're roughly modern-day earth setting now complete with space flight (augmented by Incarnation ability, yes, but they had rocket fuel down pat). With your attitude I can't blame UW if they do end up going Skynet on us, faced with a 'them or us' situation >.> (though granted your views at at least marginally more humane than the SAOverse people's solution, some had wanted to just delete UW entirely).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
I believe I said something about how AI can make backups and copies of themselves (especially in SAO where the fictional tech enable such thing) while human can't. Humans can't. Cloning and transferring memory to the clone can't be done that easy. Clones already have their own life and souls which make transferring our memory to them like killing them. But Flunclight can be backed up and directly transfer to another machine, heck they don't even have human body.
Did you not read my previous spoiler? In SAOverse setting Human souls can be copied anyway, just like Fluctlights. This is apparent with LN available material as well, with babies' souls being copied and used as base for the earliest Fluctlights. Then there's also Kirito's mind being copied, unless you want to argue Kirito does not have a human soul >.>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, Underworld isn't much different from the peaceful country that most labour and middle class people have to work like slaves, fearing about losing jobs, enduring insults from their superior. But at least horrible things like murder rarely happen there. Although the authority of the nobles are just too high and forcing sex on lower class women is common there. But there's no war or natural catastrophes there.
... Do remember, Rath had instigated natural disasters within UW many times to see if the Fluctlights there will choose survival over following the rules. Additionally, there was also stuff like plague and famine. War on the other hand, Rath had built the entire UW to eventually end in War, with the collapse of the Walls separating Human Kingdom and Dark Territory. I think you're idolizing the UW situation a tad too much, that's only a good place on a casual glance, while really it's just a petri dish that's doomed to disaster if left unchecked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Let's just say that they should be viewed as human beings in their own world since they can experience things close to humans, but in real world, I'd feel like an idiot trying to give something like food to an AI when they clearly don't need. And digital assets like the weapons and equipments and even food in game hold no value in real world because they aren't the real thing, hence impossible to really treat them as the same as us.
What measure is a non-human, or rather, a person? By only being different to a extent, it is alright for any given group to deny the other the respect or right to exist? I won't bring specific Real Life examples into this, this is just a fictional series after all. Having said that, I think this is a slippery slope; so someone physically different than the numerically dominant group yet mentally equal shall be suppressed? Where do, or should, we draw this line of being alright to abuse the different ones?

Humans in SAOverse had created life in a sense, IMO they should take responsibility for it. Just erasing them because it's inconvenient or because they're no longer wanted is as petty as a kid wanting a pet, changed his mind after a week taking care of it, and decided to just kill said pet in a tantrum as it's too much hassle to continue taking care of it.
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Old 2013-01-27, 20:53   Link #3309
Tusjecht
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Grabbed a couple hours of sleep, wanna add on to Flere's point about humanity:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysalids#section_1

Great story, much lighter than a light novel, and most importantly, contained many of the same settings and arguments put forward in the last bits of Alicization.

Kleeyook, all your points about AI seem to stem from a fear of them getting too powerful. In other words, you're intrinsically recognising that a sentient AI is just as clever - or devious - as some of the worst men to have lived in history.

You say they can be both good and bad, but all you've said is that you think they can do good. That could barely count as balanced argument.

The root of this is whether we should view their souls as the same as ours. SAO speaking, there's no difference, so could one call them the same? Remember what I wrote in the PM, the whole SAO series can be thought of as an argument to say virtual reality will eventually become the same as reality. The people in who live in the former will therefore, by this logic, be the same as people who live in reality.
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Old 2013-01-27, 22:52   Link #3310
CNine
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Grabbed a couple hours of sleep, wanna add on to Flere's point about humanity:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysalids#section_1

Great story, much lighter than a light novel, and most importantly, contained many of the same settings and arguments put forward in the last bits of Alicization.

Kleeyook, all your points about AI seem to stem from a fear of them getting too powerful. In other words, you're intrinsically recognising that a sentient AI is just as clever - or devious - as some of the worst men to have lived in history.

You say they can be both good and bad, but all you've said is that you think they can do good. That could barely count as balanced argument.

The root of this is whether we should view their souls as the same as ours. SAO speaking, there's no difference, so could one call them the same? Remember what I wrote in the PM, the whole SAO series can be thought of as an argument to say virtual reality will eventually become the same as reality. The people in who live in the former will therefore, by this logic, be the same as people who live in reality.
if AI make a revolt in our world just reset the internet all over the world and problem solved
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:28   Link #3311
Chibikiwi
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....wow I just came back and all I see is this huge debate on whether the AIs should be treated with the same rights as regular people...
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Old 2013-01-28, 03:03   Link #3312
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNine View Post
if AI make a revolt in our world just reset the internet all over the world and problem solved
Tell John Connor that, three films and an underground bunker later, "WTF?!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chibikiwi View Post
....wow I just came back and all I see is this huge debate on whether the AIs should be treated with the same rights as regular people...
Well at least the debate still managed to stay mildly relevant, AIs were only a minor point in the post that started it all.

>.> ----> Kleeyook
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Old 2013-01-28, 07:15   Link #3313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Tell John Connor that, three films and an underground bunker later, "WTF?!"



Well at least the debate still managed to stay mildly relevant, AIs were only a minor point in the post that started it all.

>.> ----> Kleeyook

Yeah at one point I wanted to jump in too but I had no idea what the whole debate was about so I went back to read all the posts but in the end it was too much for my brain to process so I only understood the part about the AIs

oh yeah so that's who it was...O_o

Last edited by Chibikiwi; 2013-01-28 at 07:18. Reason: add more
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Old 2013-01-28, 07:22   Link #3314
Netto Azure
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Well I think this is the debate that the author was trying to invoke when writing this. Still my views on this is more in line with the more inclusive side of things. It's like taking a child from a developing country and raising them in a developed one. Just because they grew up in a different environment does it mean they are not like us and therefore not human?
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Old 2013-01-28, 07:50   Link #3315
orpheus2
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Not gonna happen, if only for the fact by the end of Alicization UW was locked down but not placed into stasis. They had around 500 years or so of progress after SK!Kirito left, they're roughly modern-day earth setting now complete with space flight (augmented by Incarnation ability, yes, but they had rocket fuel down pat). With your attitude I can't blame UW if they do end up going Skynet on us, faced with a 'them or us' situation >.> (though granted your views at at least marginally more humane than the SAOverse people's solution, some had wanted to just delete UW entirely).

Did you not read my previous spoiler? In SAOverse setting Human souls can be copied anyway, just like Fluctlights. This is apparent with LN available material as well, with babies' souls being copied and used as base for the earliest Fluctlights. Then there's also Kirito's mind being copied, unless you want to argue Kirito does not have a human soul >.>

... Do remember, Rath had instigated natural disasters within UW many times to see if the Fluctlights there will choose survival over following the rules. Additionally, there was also stuff like plague and famine. War on the other hand, Rath had built the entire UW to eventually end in War, with the collapse of the Walls separating Human Kingdom and Dark Territory. I think you're idolizing the UW situation a tad too much, that's only a good place on a casual glance, while really it's just a petri dish that's doomed to disaster if left unchecked.

What measure is a non-human, or rather, a person? By only being different to a extent, it is alright for any given group to deny the other the respect or right to exist? I won't bring specific Real Life examples into this, this is just a fictional series after all. Having said that, I think this is a slippery slope; so someone physically different than the numerically dominant group yet mentally equal shall be suppressed? Where do, or should, we draw this line of being alright to abuse the different ones?

Humans in SAOverse had created life in a sense, IMO they should take responsibility for it. Just erasing them because it's inconvenient or because they're no longer wanted is as petty as a kid wanting a pet, changed his mind after a week taking care of it, and decided to just kill said pet in a tantrum as it's too much hassle to continue taking care of it.
Thank you for your enlightening explanation. It is always appreciated

Now then since Fluctlights=Human Souls, we're looking at quite a moral dilemma. Since in SAO verse, we can copy souls now. Reminds me of GitS:SAC episode 7 Idolatry – IDOLATOR... Yeah... That is not good.

I have to agree that humanity needs to take responsibility especially Higa. However, how to do so that beneficial to both parties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Grabbed a couple hours of sleep, wanna add on to Flere's point about humanity:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysalids#section_1

Great story, much lighter than a light novel, and most importantly, contained many of the same settings and arguments put forward in the last bits of Alicization.

Kleeyook, all your points about AI seem to stem from a fear of them getting too powerful. In other words, you're intrinsically recognising that a sentient AI is just as clever - or devious - as some of the worst men to have lived in history.

You say they can be both good and bad, but all you've said is that you think they can do good. That could barely count as balanced argument.

The root of this is whether we should view their souls as the same as ours. SAO speaking, there's no difference, so could one call them the same? Remember what I wrote in the PM, the whole SAO series can be thought of as an argument to say virtual reality will eventually become the same as reality. The people in who live in the former will therefore, by this logic, be the same as people who live in reality.
I have to rethink my position now. We have to some form of agreement or understanding first. For starters, they agree on both sides that they will NOT replicate more FluctLights(Human Soul) artificially or rather to be specific cloning the same FluctLight. At least, we can minimize both humans and FluctLights fighting one another.

In a way, Kayaba truly got his wish. Higa and co. have essentially made VR an alternate reality that could almost stand on its own.

The reason I have a reservation is because of SK!Kirito wanting to bring FluctLights without considering the RW. It would have been fine if FL!Asuna was still alive however... I am more afraid that SK!Kirito will go extreme in his methods to fulfill that goal.
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Old 2013-01-28, 12:51   Link #3316
Kleeyook
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I'm sorry for bothering you guys so much. This'll be my last post about AI.

If AI like FluctLight that live in their own world, wouldn't it be fine to let them stay there and never interfere with them? The differences are there, between digital copy and physical copy. We only need to worry about digital storage for digital assets, but physical assets are totally different, it's different.

Now, how would you treat them as equal like us here if they aren't humans, have no physical body. Do we need to create physical body for them at their demand to satisfy them and let them sightseeing the real world when it's a waste of money, for pointless reason? What if the entire Underworld populations want to take a tour in our world and we have to manufactured millions robots to become their physical body when we can create digital copy of our real world and put in their world? What if they somehow want to have their own territory in our world when they can do fine living in their own world?

I forgot about HOW they want to be treated. Seriously, I have no idea what kind of treatment can satisfy them because they can't enjoy real food if they're digital data, even if they have soul, just like how ghosts can't enjoy anything physical and we have to burn something fake for them to use in the afterlife (if they existed). And if they want to eat real food, I'll feel sorry for real people having to waste their needed supply for seemingly pointless reason.

I find no point why would they try to become real humans, having human body, just to enjoy our food, if they're originally digital data. Resource is limited in this world. It might be their incomprehensible, illogical wish. I can't understand that, I can't help but worry about what would happen if AIs start to do something like that.

In The Matrix, the Machine created virtual world and make humans living there. Everything there can be generated as their wish, while the real world is wasteland without sun, and seemingly no hope to restore to be as good as the one we have now. I'm wondering why the hell doesn't the Machine living in virtual world in the first place, but maybe they are obsessed about having their physical body in the real world that they were created with (like OS installed).

We are born with our physical body, but they are born without.

We would freak out if someone clone us and somehow want the clone to replace us.

We would freak out if someone copy our soul into FluctLight, then replace that copy with our current one (no idea about Kirito). It's the same for FluctLight imo, but if humans don't make digital copy of themselves in the first place, this risk can be discarded.

^^ Come to think of it, being easily copied and backed up is a downside if you aren't freaks who want to live forever and not worried about who you will become next.

The differences are there.

Flare, if someone secretly raised a school of piranha with no one detecting, tired and dropped them in the river, would you blame everyone including you there for not noticing and preventing it? It's outright illegal to raise such things, same as what RATH is doing their real project as top secret.

Netto, umm, I hardly find someone raised in different environment but still in the same world to be as different as digital data and flesh human. The comparison is too close, maybe I was too vague about comparing the difference between RL and Underworld.

Conversation between human and AI, the worst possible outcome:

Quote:
Human: Can you work for us? We'll give your payment as digital assets e.g. gil.

AI: No! We want your real money. Pay me in yen!

Human: ... How about you keep living in your own world, never to interfere with us. We promise we won't mess with you. We'll expand your world if needed, keep the server running forever.

AI: No! We want to live like human, treated like one, with our own territory, in your world!

Human: Fuck!

Last edited by Kleeyook; 2013-01-28 at 13:10.
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Old 2013-01-28, 17:07   Link #3317
Flere821
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@Kleeyook: Agreed on the fact segregation is the best option. I'm pretty sure most of the Fluctlights don't give a damn about reality anyway, barring that they could be erased by RL if some people wanted to. Alice fought for the right to exist and to be seen as equals, not for the right to be Japanese citizens and living in the same world.

As you say, let's drop this line of discussion. Chinese translations have done a new part of WEB 8 recently, I'll post a summary of it soon and we can talk about that instead.
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Old 2013-01-28, 17:41   Link #3318
Tusjecht
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Yay for relevant topics ^_^"
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All possibilities till now are just on the other side of the Light, only Fluctuating slightly. Only Fluctuating slightly...
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Old 2013-01-28, 18:03   Link #3319
Flere821
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Alicization WEB 8 Pt 30 summary below. The translator had enough of what he called "badly written fight scenes" and skipped half of part 28 and all of Part 29, reasoning the current part can tell you what happened in the previous ones anyway.

Spoiler for WEB 8 Pt30:
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Old 2013-01-28, 18:14   Link #3320
Tusjecht
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 19
Somehow, Accel World ED1 comes to mind...

Quote:
Wake up your mind
Flash in the sky~
It's a burst of sensation
They knew!
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All possibilities till now are just on the other side of the Light, only Fluctuating slightly. Only Fluctuating slightly...
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