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Old 2013-01-27, 12:34   Link #21
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Dunno, he would be still a creepy guy. Just, you know, a pretty one. Creepy bishounen aren't particularly rare...
A liar is still a liar even with a good looking face....
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Old 2013-01-27, 12:37   Link #22
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Right I don't consider Makashima (from Psycho Pass) a hero either and he certainly has a pretty face.
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Old 2013-01-27, 12:43   Link #23
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To be fair, though, I'm sure Yakomaru had more fans if he was pretty. XD But then, he's a bakenezumi, "pretty" is kind of impossible...
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Old 2013-01-27, 14:01   Link #24
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To be fair, though, I'm sure Yakomaru had more fans if he was pretty. XD But then, he's a bakenezumi, "pretty" is kind of impossible...
I am a fan of him as a character, but I can't say I'd want to meet him in real life.

Granted I actually don't like when he shows up in the series but again that is the brilliance of his character as he is supposed to unnerve us. I don't like when he shows up because he makes me so uncomfortable.
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Old 2013-01-27, 15:16   Link #25
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Yakomaru is in no way a hero. I am not saying the humans are treating the queerrats right. I never said the queerats themselves were villains, I also see them as victims.
but that is a separate issue from Yakomaru.

Yakomaru will do anything to get what he wants and not just manipulate the humans but also turn on his own kind. I don't think Yakomaru necessarily cares about the rights of his kind, from what I see he only cares about himself and his own hide. He's despicable in every way.
Even if his reasons are selfish and opportunistic it's undeniable that he had a part in improving the standard of living for his rat people (sans the former queens, now baby makers) and is a frighteningly competent leader.

One side's freedom fighters are the other side's terrorists, I believe is the common saying. I wouldn't be surprised if he is revered as a hero among his own people, that is to say in the people of the robber fly colony, and soon to be feared and hated by the humans for the same reason his people will love him.
The thing is we've been made to empathize with both sides somewhat (the democracy arguement panders to modern day viewers' views). But while the Gods have been consistent in using their authority (a fallacious argument) Yakomaru has taken to the moral high ground. So until they clash and Yakomaru's ideals are contested and his intentions fully unveiled I find it difficult to judge who's the hero and who's the villain.

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To be fair, though, I'm sure Yakomaru had more fans if he was pretty. XD But then, he's a bakenezumi, "pretty" is kind of impossible...
I think Kiroumaru is pretty.
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Old 2013-01-27, 15:44   Link #26
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Yakomaru has taken to the moral high ground.
I am sorry what? You think how Yakomaru manipulated Saki & Satoru to destroy the other tribes was "taking the moral high ground"

Or what Yakomaru did in the last episode to Kiromaru's tribe was "taking the moral high ground".

Yes Yakomaru is a competent but he got by by manipulation, sneaking, and lying. He is so quick to sell out others, what makes you think he wouldn't sell his own tribe if it was to benefit himself?

On another note just because I am saying Yakomaru is not a hero doesn't mean I am saying the humans are "heroes". I am not.

Sometimes there can be no heroes in a story. There might be characters I emphasize with (like Saki & Satoru and perhaps characters like Kiromaru & that queer rat that Saki once saved who helped them out later on). But Yakomaru is certainly not one of those characters.
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:17   Link #27
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Sometimes there can be no heroes in a story. There might be characters I emphasize with (like Saki & Satoru and perhaps characters like Kiromaru & that queer rat that Saki once saved who helped them out later on). But Yakomaru is certainly not one of those characters.
Yep. It's not always about good and bad. Even more so in complicated situations such as the one presented in this story.

Yakomaru is frightfully intelligent and ambitious, and in theory, standing up for the rights of his people wouldn't be a bad thing. The problem is... everything else.
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Old 2013-01-27, 18:20   Link #28
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Although I also said I emphasize with Kiromaru I guess I couldn't call him a hero as I believe it was him who took the baby queerrats from that other tribe and made them slaves (of course Yakomaru also supported this).

Even Saki & Satoru who I think are generally good people don't seem to see an issue in how the humans treat the queer rats.

I can easily argue that there is no perfect character here. Well perhaps Maria, Mamoru & Shun who died or fled when they were so young cannot be judged.


On the other hand Yakomaru standing up for the rights of his tribe is a good thing but again I see it as more that is what Yakomaru wants for himself not his tribe. Of course it's not wrong to want these rights, but with them Yakomaru also gained power & influence over his tribe, hence he certainly gained something besides human rights for his people.
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Old 2013-01-27, 18:20   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am sorry what? You think how Yakomaru manipulated Saki & Satoru to destroy the other tribes was "taking the moral high ground"

Or what Yakomaru did in the last episode to Kiromaru's tribe was "taking the moral high ground".
Of course not, I'm not stupid. It's just that I've come to imagine that Yakomaru has poised his form of meritocratic democracy in opposition to Kiroumaru's militarist feudalistic monarchy and the village's totalitarian Budism inspired technocracy. In theory he places the highest value on individual life and liberty. He even said as much when he was called in for questioning on matter of the Spider Wasps and the Goat Moths. Every time he squeals of democracy and individualism it's as if he daring his gods to challenge him on the implicit notion that he's (and by extension all other queerrats) their equal.


Quote:
Yes Yakomaru is a competent but he got by by manipulation, sneaking, and lying. He is so quick to sell out others, what makes you think he wouldn't sell his own tribe if it was to benefit himself?

On another note just because I am saying Yakomaru is not a hero doesn't mean I am saying the humans are "heroes". I am not.
I think that is a moot point seeing as there doesn't appear to be a faction that can offer him anything more valuable more than his own rapidly growing power base. As long as Yakomaru is a part on the Robber Fly society and every individual pursues his own self interests it benefits the colony as a whole. His being being selfish does not make his contributions to his society any more or less valuable the size of them the more so. And really we don't know what he wants that one of the things that make him so scary. He might just be taking every opportunity that he sees, it's just that he sees them a lot sooner than all the other players.

As for Yakomaru being a hero a I'm sure a convincing case can be made either way. I'd just like to note that his scheming and manipulating (I have yet to catch him outright lying) don't disqualify him from being a hero they are no less deplorable than the common hero's heroics (e.g. violence and imprisonment).

Quote:
Sometimes there can be no heroes in a story. There might be characters I emphasize with (like Saki & Satoru and perhaps characters like Kiromaru & that queer rat that Saki once saved who helped them out later on). But Yakomaru is certainly not one of those characters.
I agree that this story doesn't have any clear-cut goodies and baddies. It's just a harsh post-apocalyptic world and everyone in it does the best they can to get by.


Wow this got a bit longer than I had expected.
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Old 2013-01-27, 18:28   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju View Post
I think Kiroumaru is pretty.
I find him cool.. He could be mistaken as a god as well.
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Old 2013-01-27, 18:29   Link #31
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Well I see it as Yakomaru is willing to hurt his own species for the benefit of his tribe & himself. And I wouldn't be surprised if he is willing to hurt his tribe for himself in the end.

I am not saying Yakomaru is worse than the humans but he is certainly not better.

Also I believe he did outright lie in this latest episode about what tribes attacked who.
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Old 2013-01-28, 02:21   Link #32
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Yakomaru is definitely a sneaky and untrustworthy fellow. He's machiavellian to be sure.

But perhaps he really does hold to democratic ideals. I mean, I don't see any particular pragmatic benefit to him laying that out the way he did in the most recent episode. If nothing else, it could come across as him thumbing his nose at the humans of SSY since they obviously don't live by anything close to the ideals that Yakomaru was espousing. So since I see no real pragmatic benefit to Yakomaru laying out the democratic ideals that supposedly guide his people, it's at least possible that he really does believe them. In which case, he ironically has the most agreeable philosophy of any major character in this show, imo.


You know, it occurs to me that the humans of SSY really are like gods, to a degree. I mean, cantus empowers some of them in ways reminiscent of the Greek and Roman gods of mythology. And as Tomiko shows, even immortality is possible for some of them.

So imagine a narrative about these gloriously beautiful gods that cull their own young to try to perpetuate their safety and status for hundreds upon hundreds of years. They reap the fruits of human labor, with those humans looking like brute beasts in comparison to the beautiful gods.

But one day a George Washington or a Benjamin Franklin appears, and says to his fellow humans that these gods are not deserving of our respect. These gods look down upon us, even as their societies are crueler and less enlightened than our own! So then that leader organizes humans around democratic ideals, first spreading it across the whole of humanity through defeating tribes of different ideals. Then, with humanity united under democratic ideals, this leader plots a way to escape the yoke of the rulership of these false gods. Suppose this leader triumphs in his quest.

Is this leader not a hero to his people? His methods were often crude, but his results ring true and accomplished a political ideal. And as duplicitous as he was to the gods, he was sincere in the democratic ideals that he espoused.

Imagine you had a story like that, told from the perspective of the leader of this human rebellion against the Greek gods. We'd probably think of him as a hero, wouldn't we?


Just something to think about.
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Old 2013-01-28, 02:36   Link #33
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He could be a hero.... but a very ugly one though... LOls
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Old 2013-01-28, 05:00   Link #34
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Imagine you had a story like that, told from the perspective of the leader of this human rebellion against the Greek gods. We'd probably think of him as a hero, wouldn't we?
But then, one society's hero is another's monster. Third-party observers like us, however, have a clearer picture and can decide how we regard the individuals involved based on our own approach to certain ideas and executions thereof.

So far we have seen much of the good and bad things on both sides, though I think it's not a spoiler to say that we haven't seen everything yet. From both sides.
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Old 2013-01-28, 05:28   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yakomaru is definitely a sneaky and untrustworthy fellow. He's machiavellian to be sure.

But perhaps he really does hold to democratic ideals. I mean, I don't see any particular pragmatic benefit to him laying that out the way he did in the most recent episode. If nothing else, it could come across as him thumbing his nose at the humans of SSY since they obviously don't live by anything close to the ideals that Yakomaru was espousing. So since I see no real pragmatic benefit to Yakomaru laying out the democratic ideals that supposedly guide his people, it's at least possible that he really does believe them. In which case, he ironically has the most agreeable philosophy of any major character in this show, imo.


You know, it occurs to me that the humans of SSY really are like gods, to a degree. I mean, cantus empowers some of them in ways reminiscent of the Greek and Roman gods of mythology. And as Tomiko shows, even immortality is possible for some of them.

So imagine a narrative about these gloriously beautiful gods that cull their own young to try to perpetuate their safety and status for hundreds upon hundreds of years. They reap the fruits of human labor, with those humans looking like brute beasts in comparison to the beautiful gods.

But one day a George Washington or a Benjamin Franklin appears, and says to his fellow humans that these gods are not deserving of our respect. These gods look down upon us, even as their societies are crueler and less enlightened than our own! So then that leader organizes humans around democratic ideals, first spreading it across the whole of humanity through defeating tribes of different ideals. Then, with humanity united under democratic ideals, this leader plots a way to escape the yoke of the rulership of these false gods. Suppose this leader triumphs in his quest.

Is this leader not a hero to his people? His methods were often crude, but his results ring true and accomplished a political ideal. And as duplicitous as he was to the gods, he was sincere in the democratic ideals that he espoused.

Imagine you had a story like that, told from the perspective of the leader of this human rebellion against the Greek gods. We'd probably think of him as a hero, wouldn't we?


Just something to think about.
Legends are generally bad news; there's not that much difference between heroes and madmen. -Solid Snake
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Old 2013-01-28, 07:21   Link #36
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Old 2013-01-28, 08:08   Link #37
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^This is great. xDDD
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Old 2013-01-28, 08:49   Link #38
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What I find odd is that people keep saying Squealer is a hero for his people against the humans and yet Squealer is actually responsible for the death of more of the Queerrats then probably anyone in the story so far.
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Old 2013-01-28, 10:05   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Legends are generally bad news; there's not that much difference between heroes and madmen. -Solid Snake
Yakomaru may be many things, but he doesn't strike me as a madman. Quite the contrary - He strikes me as very sane and with a keen sense of self-preservation (he demonstrated this way back when he first met Saki and Satoru).

If Yakomaru strikes you as a madman, I'd be curious to know why.


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But then, one society's hero is another's monster. Third-party observers like us, however, have a clearer picture and can decide how we regard the individuals involved based on our own approach to certain ideas and executions thereof.
There's some truth to this. But I think it's important to remember that this narrative is told in a way that may bias us against Yakomaru:

1. All the major protagonists are humans. The story is told from the perspective of a few of those humans, and primarily Saki (who is totally creeped out by Yakomaru).

2. We ourselves are humans while Yakomaru is some ugly looking creature. The Queerats in general are not exactly easy on the eyes.


I think it's good to be cognizant of how these things may bias us, and so it might be good to try to strip them away as much as possible in order to get a fuller picture of what exactly is going on here. So I tried to think of a scenario that captures how your average Queerat in this world might see things, and then relate that to us in a way that we'd understand.

Now, like I wrote, there's no question that Yakomaru is a sneaky and untrustworthy fellow. He's very manipulative and machiavellian. There's little doubt that his own personal empowerment motivates him some.

Nonetheless, the ideals he espouses are ones that I'm sure many would find great value in. Is Yakomaru using those ideals purely as propaganda in some world domination quest? Maybe. But there's reason to think that he himself might value those ideals for their own sake.
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Old 2013-01-28, 11:59   Link #40
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Also I believe he did outright lie in this latest episode about what tribes attacked who.
The defection of the Spider Wasps all but proves Yakomaru's 'theory' on the attack being enscenated. He did implicate the Giant Hornets in the set-up, but that's all it was an implication. No he's got his tail coverd, lying would get him killed for certain.

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What I find odd is that people keep saying Squealer is a hero for his people against the humans and yet Squealer is actually responsible for the death of more of the Queerrats then probably anyone in the story so far.
Responsibility is a tricky thing, especially in matters of state. Is he responsible for the deaths ofall the Ground Spiders Satoru killed during the first war arc? Is he responsible for the deaths of the mole rats under him that gave their lives to protect Saturu and Saki then? Is he responsible for the deaths of the forward striving ministers his Queen killed? Is he responsible for the current mental states of all the Queens in the colonies allied with him? Is he responsible for the deaths of his allies who fel fighting Kiroumaru? Is he responsible for the defeated Giant Hornet soldiers? Is he responisble for the molerats killed by the Pest Control Department? Is he responsible for any death of any sentient being? More importantly, wat does this responsibility entail? I for one daren't answer any of these questions.
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