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Old 2013-01-27, 08:40   Link #5721
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
No it doesn't. We have no idea what effort the politicians went through to even do that much and in the end it was still made an issue by the story. Not even close to a whim.
The only one who made an issue out of it was Cagalli. Yes, I'm sure Uzumi and the others in the government were not happy with it, but in the end they all recognized the value they got out of it.
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Yes but there is no suggestion that they joined the Alliance on the basis that Orb suffered from the Julius Seven incident.
The Alliance was reformed in Destiny because of Junius 7.
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The issue of the sustainability of Orb's ideals has no relevance to my point about how there is leeway in their ideals. We can debate about that too but I'd like to get this point out of the way first.
Well, there are two ways that I can see for there to be leeway:

1. Exceptions and edge cases are somehow codified.

or

2. The 3 claims are not taken literally.

If you take the second approach, that brings us to:
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Certainly. But it's still a very strong false equivalence.
This is where the second approach comes in. If the claim is not taken literally, then it doesn't have to be an actual invasion. It just means that Orb will protect itself from external threats.
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I very much doubt that they would accept the legality of that, especially when that definitely goes against their ideals. Just because AF did it, doesn't mean it's legitimate.
Maybe not legally (although that's debatable as there's no organization like the UN to enforce international laws), but practically, yes, because Orb was powerless and without some of its leaders (who had conveniently just killed themselves).
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But the core ideal is neutrality.
It may be an ideal, but it can never be an end to itself. The end goal is to protect Orb.
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Cagalli's father right after he found out that they were making weapons for AF under his watch.
Oh, him. No, he never resigned.
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But it definitely proves that Cagalli's father wasn't abandoning his ideals. And in the end it didn't really fail their country.
Right, tell that to the people who suddenly saw their country being overtaken by a foreign nation.
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But Cagalli's father as as well as all those politicians thought they were maintaining ideals which is the point. Your point was that they break it at a whim and that this was an example of it but this is definitely not evidence of it. They were not breaking their ideals at a whim.
Why not? Because of a line uttered in defiance? I have no doubt that Uzumi and his colleagues thought they were doing the right thing. But in the end, their actions still reduced Orb's chance of fighting the AF's invasion.
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I never said it wasn't legitimate. I said the show doesn't portray it as even remotely okay and that it was out of character.
No, the show definitely does not portray it as being out of character. The show portrays it as being a different approach toward the end goal of ensuring Orb's safety given their situation. Hence, why Cagalli had no legitimate means of preventing Orb from joining the Alliance.

Just to clarify on something:

When I said "at whim" in an earlier post, I don't actually mean there was no thought behind it or that it was carelessly decided upon. I meant that this wasn't something on the level of adding a new Amendment to the US Constitution. It was more like something that Uzumi could discuss with his cabinet members and then make a decision upon.
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Old 2013-01-27, 12:06   Link #5722
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
The only one who made an issue out of it was Cagalli. Yes, I'm sure Uzumi and the others in the government were not happy with it, but in the end they all recognized the value they got out of it.
And what value did they get out of it? Stolen Gundams and their only space colony destroyed? From what I remember, Uzumi regretted it and Orb didn't continue producing weapons for the Earth Alliance after that.

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The Alliance was reformed in Destiny because of Junius 7.
But Orb did not choose to join the Alliance on that basis. You're arguing that after the treaty forms, Orb can consider PLANT a threat as well. But that's only after Orb joins the Alliance. I'm saying the whole decision to join the Alliance was BS in the first place.

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Well, there are two ways that I can see for there to be leeway:

1. Exceptions and edge cases are somehow codified.

or

2. The 3 claims are not taken literally.

If you take the second approach, that brings us to: This is where the second approach comes in. If the claim is not taken literally, then it doesn't have to be an actual invasion. It just means that Orb will protect itself from external threats.
I never said there's wasn't any leeway there. But it's still false equivalence and on a hypothetical situation that has no bearing to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that the suffering caused to Orb by the Julius Seven incident was not a factor in the Orb deciding to join the Alliance.

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Maybe not legally (although that's debatable as there's no organization like the UN to enforce international laws), but practically, yes, because Orb was powerless and without some of its leaders (who had conveniently just killed themselves).
So what you're saying is that whilst Orb soldiers did fight in the last battle against their occupiers, they did not do so for their country because they were practically powerless. That makes no sense.

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It may be an ideal, but it can never be an end to itself. The end goal is to protect Orb.
That's the ultimate end goal yes but the end goal of those three ideals is neutrality.

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Oh, him. No, he never resigned.
Yes he did. It says in the Wikia and other places that he resigned as Chief representative and handed that position over to Homura Athha: his younger brother. That seems a little bit too specific to be made up.

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Right, tell that to the people who suddenly saw their country being overtaken by a foreign nation.
And regain their country afterwards, which wouldn't have happened in they joined without a fight. But this is separate point. The point is that regardless of how you might interpret it, what Cagalli's father did does not suggest that he was breaking his ideals. Quite the opposite.

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Why not? Because of a line uttered in defiance? I have no doubt that Uzumi and his colleagues thought they were doing the right thing. But in the end, their actions still reduced Orb's chance of fighting the AF's invasion.
Uzumi believed his actions wasn't handing over Orb to the Earth Alliance. He believed that they were defying the Earth Alliance satisfactory sight until the end. That does not suggest he believed he was breaking his ideals, regardless of what you might think of it's practicality. And in the end what he did allowed Orb to defy the Earth Alliance even further and ultimately allowed them to regain their country which they couldn't have done if they fought to the last man. The fact of the matter is that what Uzumi did was definitely following the ideals at least for his perspective. If you're trying to argue that this is an example which shows they don't consider the ideals to be fundamental then this is not a good example.

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No, the show definitely does not portray it as being out of character. The show portrays it as being a different approach toward the end goal of ensuring Orb's safety given their situation. Hence, why Cagalli had no legitimate means of preventing Orb from joining the Alliance.
That doesn't stop it from being out of character.

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Just to clarify on something:

When I said "at whim" in an earlier post, I don't actually mean there was no thought behind it or that it was carelessly decided upon. I meant that this wasn't something on the level of adding a new Amendment to the US Constitution. It was more like something that Uzumi could discuss with his cabinet members and then make a decision upon.
Believe it or not, the US constitution is infringed upon quite a lot by it's own Government but nobody believe it would completely abandon it. That's the same principle here.
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Old 2013-01-27, 12:10   Link #5723
amaterasu4
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I believe SEED HD simply uses a remastered recording of all dialogs.
Nope, all the actors had to rerecord their lines since they became more experienced with their characters. The most obvious is Kira who many comment he sounds different from the original series (the actor wasn't too experienced by that year and the only big role he had was in Scryed as Kazuya). Happens with all rereleases in Japan just like Metal Gear HD

Last edited by amaterasu4; 2013-01-27 at 14:10.
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:18   Link #5724
Haak
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Episode 34

*Watches Shinn blow up Kira's Gundam*

My Reaction: "Like hell. He didn't die 54 episodes ago and he ain't dying now..."
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Last edited by Haak; 2013-01-28 at 06:22.
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:32   Link #5725
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Nope, all the actors had to rerecord their lines since they became more experienced with their characters. The most obvious is Kira who many comment he sounds different from the original series (the actor wasn't too experienced by that year and the only big role he had was in Scryed as Kazuya). Happens with all rereleases in Japan just like Metal Gear HD
there was no new audio recording for the HD SEED remaster, no new lines was in the HD remaster that wasnt in the original show or the special editions.

The only thing different about the HD remaster is some scenes being rearranged/remastered and some lines being changed with other stock lines, they sound exactly the same as the original, with the only difference being the actual sound quality and some SE edition lines being used aswell. Nothing new was recorded for the HD remaster except new OP/ED's, unlike the 0083 REMASTER where everything was rerecorded.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Episode 34

*Watches Shinn blow up Kira's Gundam*

My Reaction: "Like hell. He didn't die 44 episodes ago and he ain't dying now..."
Well, atleast you see/get a better explanation to why he survived this time
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:33   Link #5726
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And what value did they get out of it?
The Astrays.
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I'm saying the whole decision to join the Alliance was BS in the first place.
Of course, but it doesn't matter. What matters is if they could justify it, and they did.
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I never said there's wasn't any leeway there. But it's still false equivalence and on a hypothetical situation that has no bearing to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that the suffering caused to Orb by the Julius Seven incident was not a factor in the Orb deciding to join the Alliance.
The point is the Junius 7 incident was still a factor in Orb joining the Alliance.
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So what you're saying is that whilst Orb soldiers did fight in the last battle against their occupiers, they did not do so for their country because they were practically powerless. That makes no sense.
What? I'm talking about after Uzumi killed himself. The AF did annex Orb after that.
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That's the ultimate end goal yes but the end goal of those three ideals is neutrality.
Again, not just neutrality. In fact, the first point is about non-aggression and the second point is about sovereignty. It is only the third point that talks directly about non-intereference and neutrality.
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Yes he did. It says in the Wikia and other places that he resigned as Chief representative and handed that position over to Homura Athha: his younger brother. That seems a little bit too specific to be made up.
Well, that has never been shown in the anime. The fact is that Uzumi still had power and influence over the government.
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And regain their country afterwards, which wouldn't have happened in they joined without a fight.
Yeah, lucky them. Who'd ever thought that 2 ships could so majorly affected the war in such a way. But a lucky ending doesn't justify Uzumi's decision to give up on fighting the AF's invasion at that point.
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But this is separate point. The point is that regardless of how you might interpret it, what Cagalli's father did does not suggest that he was breaking his ideals. Quite the opposite.
What Uzumi thinks is irrelevant because he died without having to face the consequence of his decision.
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Uzumi believed...
He may believe whatever he wants, but the consequence of his actions still says otherwise.
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Believe it or not, the US constitution is infringed upon quite a lot by it's own Government but nobody believe it would completely abandon it. That's the same principle here.
Well, if it is, it must be in subtle ways. When your ideals involve keeping your sovereignty, and you failed to do that, that's not something people can just overlook or feign ignorance.

The fact is, that joining the Alliance for Orb meant gaining an ally rather than an enemy which they could not defeat. It's a valid attempt at ensuring the safety of Orb and cannot be said to be out of character, especially when there are new people running the country.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Episode 34

*Watches Shinn blow up Kira's Gundam*

My Reaction: "Like hell. He didn't die 44 episodes ago and he ain't dying now..."
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:36   Link #5727
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The fact is, that joining the Alliance for Orb meant gaining ally rather than an enemy which they could not defeat. It's a valid attempt at ensuring the safety of Orb and cannot be said to be out of character, especially when there are new people running the country.
See, that's one of the big " Meh " moments of Destiny, we know they joined the alliance. But we don't see how it affected the civilians, at all, we don't see any EF personel stationed at ORB, Yuna was still clearly in power, i don't see how it affected them in any way except them having to do combined military missions with the Earth Forces, something to give us a grander view would've been nice.

Unless they had mass coordinator lynchings going on in the background. lol
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:43   Link #5728
monster
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
See, that's one of the big " Meh " moments of Destiny, we know they joined the alliance. But we don't see how it affected the civilians, at all, we don't see any EF personel stationed at ORB, Yuna was still clearly in power, i don't see how it affected them in any way except them having to do combined military missions with the Earth Forces, something to give us a grander view would've been nice.

Unless they had mass coordinator lynchings going on in the background. lol
Well, that's the point. They're forming an alliance with other nations this time instead of being invaded.
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:58   Link #5729
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
See, that's one of the big " Meh " moments of Destiny, we know they joined the alliance. But we don't see how it affected the civilians, at all, we don't see any EF personel stationed at ORB, Yuna was still clearly in power, i don't see how it affected them in any way except them having to do combined military missions with the Earth Forces, something to give us a grander view would've been nice.

Unless they had mass coordinator lynchings going on in the background. lol
Unfortunately, it's also something we lack visual footage in a number of anime series. When a political decision of such magnitude is taken, we don't see much of a reaction from civilians considering known previous history.

I was hoping we'd see footage of the civilians starting riots and broadcasters announcing that martial law has been proclaimed (kind of stuff you see in movies). In normal time, Yuna should not going outside of his ivory tower after such an outrageous decision because this decision of aligning with the EF is material to spark a civil war.
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Old 2013-01-27, 17:53   Link #5730
Haak
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Spoiler for @ monster:


Episode 35

Bwahahahahaha, that's hilarious. They just totally anticlimactically cut to scene with Kira in it like its freaking nothing. Not even small attempt to get a surprise from the audience. Didn't even bother this time.

And Shinn and Rey sure are proving to be giant hypocrites. So the enemy is what ZAFT tells you is the enemy huh? Funny I don't recall that quite applying to Stellar. Can't believe Athrun missed out on such a golden opportunity.

And I can't say I'm getting behind the whole "It's all LOGOS's fault". One group can not be the sole reason why wars happen and are prolonged. People's long time grievances also play a massive part. Let's think of the current situation with America and Iran. The animosity between the two goes back decades and isn't just going to clear up between the two. I thought Destiny did well to demonstrate this when those terrorists caused the Julius Seven incident so maybe this is an example of the Chairman's darker side but now it's starting to look like that Julius Seven incident was rigged and I certainly hope not.

When I look at today's conflict it seems to me to be more focused on the masses, with things like nation-building, COIN operations and the effect of drone use. But maybe this is narrow-minded. Those are conflicts are about powerful western nations verses weak insurgencies whilst this is about two equally strong sides. But I guess it just shows that any war anime that centres on ace pilots is not going to be totally with the times. Of course since the setting is the future, maybe it doesn't have to be but I can't help but find it a little ironic that a distant future war is modelled after our past. For an anime that does actually use media manipulation, PR and propaganda, I think it could do a little better.
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Old 2013-01-27, 23:18   Link #5731
Znozzy
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Well, that's the point. They're forming an alliance with other nations this time instead of being invaded.
Yeah, i know. But seeing how the people they alliance with kind of want to exterminate half their country's population, it seems like they should show something about coordinators in ORB's nation being treated badly, unless nothing happened to them, that would make the show worse than it already is, lol

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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Unfortunately, it's also something we lack visual footage in a number of anime series. When a political decision of such magnitude is taken, we don't see much of a reaction from civilians considering known previous history.

I was hoping we'd see footage of the civilians starting riots and broadcasters announcing that martial law has been proclaimed (kind of stuff you see in movies). In normal time, Yuna should not going outside of his ivory tower after such an outrageous decision because this decision of aligning with the EF is material to spark a civil war.
Agreed, i wanted any sort of reaction from the Orb population, hell, a riot, coordinators being driven away by EF personel, anything, you know? i do know they showed riots when it came to the EF population, but not ORB.
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Old 2013-01-28, 00:00   Link #5732
monster
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I'm guessing that's something in a side story. But still, the impression i got when I watched SEED was the opposite.
It's in a side story, but it's also in the anime. That's how Orb got the technology to build mobile suits.
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My point is that they need a justification before the damn treaty.
My point is that Junius 7 is a valid justification IF they wanted to claim they're still trying to keep Orb's ideals. HOWEVER, they could also choose to say that they're abandoning those ideals because it is not working for Orb in the current global situation. Either way, they have a justification for joining the Alliance. I'm sorry if this caused any confusion.
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Non-aggression because of neutrality.
Neutrality is about not interfering in the conflicts of other nations. Non-aggression, in this context, is about not attacking other nations for one's own purpose, such as colonization or imperialism. They're two different things.
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And if someone is to blame that means something was done wrong. The story made an obvious point about how what they did was done behind closed doors and how they knew what they were doing went against their ideals. It was definitely portrayed as something along the lines of the US Government secretly infringing its own constitution, not something they discussed out in the open.
I never said these ideals are not important. There are many things that governments do that are important, things that are done in secret, and even things that could affect the head of the government if known to the public. That doesn't mean they're all on the same level as the US government infringing the US Constitution.
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So please explain to me how the fact that he failed to uphold those ideals proves that those ideals were not integral after all. Because that was your original point.
That the fact that he failed to uphold these ideals ultimately did not matter. It did not change Orb fundamentally as a country.
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I thought Destiny did well to demonstrate this when those terrorists caused the Julius Seven incident so maybe this is an example of the Chairman's darker side but now it's starting to look like that Julius Seven incident was rigged and I certainly hope not.
It's Junius, not Julius.
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Yeah, i know. But seeing how the people they alliance with kind of want to exterminate half their country's population, it seems like they should show something about coordinators in ORB's nation being treated badly, unless nothing happened to them, that would make the show worse than it already is, lol
You have to understand that, while the Seirans and probably many in the higher ups of EA do not care for Coordinators, not all of them are extremists like Blue Cosmos that actually want all Coordinators dead. There was that conversation between Azrael and the EA leaders in SEED about this.

The object of the Alliance, right now, is about fighting the PLANTs. And since Orb maintained its independence, the status quo for the people living in Orb remains.
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Old 2013-01-28, 00:43   Link #5733
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The object of the Alliance, right now, is about fighting the PLANTs. And since Orb maintained its independence, the status quo for the people living in Orb remains.
Hmm,while they did regain their independence after cagalli returned in the Akatsuki, i'd like to know if it affected the country at all, if it didnt (Minus ORB's military being deployed against the Minerva) then it wasnt a bad deal, totally against their ideal's their country was built on, but it wasnt a bad deal. lol
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:02   Link #5734
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Concerning the whole Astray thing, I'll just put this up for reference: ORB built the Gundams because of collaboration between the EA and a rogue faction within ORB's governing structure: the Sahaku family. The Sahaku family mainly did it so they could steal the data and use it to build their own mobile suits: the five Gundam Astray Frames. The Sahaku family did this to gain power and did NOT harbor the overall ideals of ORB's other ruling families.
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:21   Link #5735
monster
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Hmm,while they did regain their independence after cagalli returned in the Akatsuki, i'd like to know if it affected the country at all, if it didnt (Minus ORB's military being deployed against the Minerva) then it wasnt a bad deal, totally against their ideal's their country was built on, but it wasnt a bad deal. lol
Well, technically, they've been independent since the end of the last war. Joining EA simply commits them to join in the war effort against the PLANTs.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Concerning the whole Astray thing, I'll just put this up for reference: ORB built the Gundams because of collaboration between the EA and a rogue faction within ORB's governing structure: the Sahaku family. The Sahaku family mainly did it so they could steal the data and use it to build their own mobile suits: the five Gundam Astray Frames. The Sahaku family did this to gain power and did NOT harbor the overall ideals of ORB's other ruling families.
That power is also necessary to protect Orb, as Uzumi himself admitted.
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:29   Link #5736
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Not denying that. I'm just putting it up for everyone else's reference.
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:49   Link #5737
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Sure, I'm just clarifying that, while it wasn't officially sanctioned, it was still done for Orb and the government still makes use of the resulting knowledge.
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Old 2013-01-28, 02:23   Link #5738
Znozzy
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Well, technically, they've been independent since the end of the last war. Joining EA simply commits them to join in the war effort against the PLANTs. That power is also necessary to protect Orb, as Uzumi himself admitted.
True, but in Destiny, the EA seemed pretty dedicated in exterminating the coordinators with their first attack being a fullout nuclear strike against the PLANTS.

it does seem silly they'd let ORB join with their coordinator population, seeing how the grunts in the first strike shouted heil blue cosmos to put it short.

i guess its just another thing Destiny pooped out without thinking about it too much
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Old 2013-01-28, 03:17   Link #5739
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True, but in Destiny, the EA seemed pretty dedicated in exterminating the coordinators with their first attack being a fullout nuclear strike against the PLANTS.

it does seem silly they'd let ORB join with their coordinator population, seeing how the grunts in the first strike shouted heil blue cosmos to put it short.

i guess its just another thing Destiny pooped out without thinking about it too much
Well, it just shows that there are different goals in these war. Some fight because they genuinely feel threatened and others fight due to hate and still others fight for power and greed.

It's also possible that many Coordinators who left Orb back during SEED simply never returned, like Shinn and those other engineers that Cagalli was accusing ZAFT of using to make use of Orb technology at the beginning of Destiny.
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Old 2013-01-28, 05:02   Link #5740
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Well, it just shows that there are different goals in these war. Some fight because they genuinely feel threatened and others fight due to hate and still others fight for power and greed.

It's also possible that many Coordinators who left Orb back during SEED simply never returned, like Shinn and those other engineers that Cagalli was accusing ZAFT of using to make use of Orb technology at the beginning of Destiny.
Honestly, it's hard to talk about ORB and it's coordinators since the only ones we've seen is Kira, Shinn & Co and " those engineers " i'll just leave it at that for the Orb discussion.

the EA has always been shown as selfish and evil, none of the higher ups in SEED objected to exterminating the coordinators, they simply said they should focus on the energy crisis on earth instead of launching a full-scale attack against Zaft after obtaining the N-jammer canceller data
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