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Old 2013-01-26, 23:53   Link #11861
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
It's hard to impossible to tell in what ways she's different from humans. Personally, I felt that she had human and understandable reactions and motivations even as a child. Actually, she seems to get less comprehensible the older she gets, though that's probably more because we've seen far more of her as a teen.
As I said earlier, the fact that she was for a purpose at such a young age makes me think she was quite set apart even then.

Quote:
Is satisfying what you mean by "real"? Okay, then.
Yup.

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Just because it didn't happen there doesn't mean it doesn't still happen fairly often. I'm reminded of the Japanese and American reactions to Gundam Seed: Destiny. I'm just saying it sometimes occurs and might have here.
Funnily enough, Gundam Seed Destiny was what I was thinking ofmwhen I mentioned Serial Experments Lain. I just don't think people should fall back on that excuse whenever an anime they dislike is popular.
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Old 2013-01-27, 02:54   Link #11862
telamont
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All this talk about whether Medaka is a horrible character or not... Aren't you guys making it way more complicated than it should be?

As long as we're talking about what each of us believe to be "the majority"...

Then, "the majority" of Medaka's most vocal haters also seem to be vocal Zenkichi fans, ergo...

Except for a rare few instances, Medaka always "tops" Zenkichi, taking away his spotlight, trivializing his accomplishments, and relegating him to the status of her sidekick or, in Zenkichi's own words, her "faithful pitbull." To add insult to injury, Zenkichi's life pretty much revolves around Medaka, but Medaka's life does NOT revolve around Zenkichi.

She does not treat your hero, the guy you're projecting on to and rooting for, with the deference, respect and appreciation you feel he deserves. Therefore, you hate her.

Every "negative" of hers is magnified in your mind. Character development and positive traits are easily dismissed. And you're as vocal about dissing her as you are about defending Zenkichi's honor or praising his accomplishments.

Which is fine, I guess. Loud people will be loud. And Zenkichi does seem to attract the more vocal fans. But let's be honest here. For "the majority" of you, you hate her because she's taking up what you feel is Zenkichi's rightful place. That's the fundamental cause. The rest is just rationalization and confirmation bias. And IN NO WAY am I insinuating or trying to pass off my "observations" as "objective fact."

Last edited by telamont; 2013-01-27 at 03:17.
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Old 2013-01-27, 03:13   Link #11863
Kaisos Erranon
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I dislike her because she does that to every character, not just Zenkichi.
The minute she disappears or drops out of focus for an extended period of time, the other cast members are actually able to do things and the manga's quality skyrockets. Just look at the Treasure Hunt.
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Old 2013-01-27, 03:47   Link #11864
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I dislike her because she does that to every character, not just Zenkichi.
The minute she disappears or drops out of focus for an extended period of time, the other cast members are actually able to do things and the manga's quality skyrockets. Just look at the Treasure Hunt.
this and that she's still not quite as developed as her fans say she is. I was beginning to amend my dislike for her in the jet black wedding arc, but thanks to the current one right now I see that there's little to no change at all.
sure she says now "I want" but she still doesnt seem to have taken in much of what others have said to her, as evident in the latest chapter.

also, I just dont believe she deserves zenkichi. and zenkichi shouldnt be with her, for his own benefit. its more that she abused him and isnt healthy for him rather than stealing his spotlight that makes me dislike her.
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Old 2013-01-27, 11:51   Link #11865
Wolfenstein
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I'm not responding you word for word because the back and forth of "No you were trying to tell me that my opinion is wring in-between the lines!" is completely pointless and it's just one useless statement after the other by both.

As for you wanting me to prove that Medaka didn't uncontrollably love humanity at age 2, a simple examination of the manga will answer:

I was only making an affimation of non-belief, truthfully, the reason for her wanting a finite goal so much are unknown and hinges on her childhood psychology, as Lupus stated. We just know that she wasn't who she is now at age 2.

And you can easily prove that using one single scan:

Spoiler:


"Because you taught me my reason for living, I became me."

I don't think any more words need to be said. But, anyways, just look at the rest of the manga:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


Is this the Medaka that's uncontrollably in-love with humans? When you read "I thought of those around me as fools" you think "I love people!". Can't you see that she's clearly an impressionable child who would accept whatever finite goal she was given out of desperation? Or would the Medaka that loves humans so much stop and consider Kumagawa's reasoning as the best until someone gave her an actual goal?

Heck, if someone told Medaka at that age, that her purpose was to be a farmer, she'd probably go do it. Because in the end, she was still a child, and that's the point of her child-hood. A child that's misunderstood, or as Medaka puts it "Iniquitous".

Point in case, your theory is unlikely. The closest explanation we have is that she was obssesed with having a goal because that's what her mother's death seemed to be and was told her it was, but I know that her character is not how you describe her at age 2.

Frankly speaking, Medaka's childhood is actually the best part of her character, so I definitely can understand it very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape
You see, since you, by your own admission, are part of those that hate Medaka, obviously you're going to believe that. You focus on those that share your opinion and since it's a vocal minority, it seems like there are more people that support your views.
Sure, why not? Likewise, that applies to every fanbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape
Exactly, Medaka fans can be found in many places, it's just that unlike haters, they don't usually make a spectacle of themselves.
That's really not the point, though.

The point is that when you compare her to someone like Kumagawa, it's obvious that she's nowhere near as loved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
Just because it didn't happen there doesn't mean it doesn't still happen fairly often. I'm reminded of the Japanese and American reactions to Gundam Seed: Destiny. I'm just saying it sometimes occurs and might have here.
Oh, yeah. Undoubtedly.

The Japanese have a much higher rate of approval for Medaka than probably anyone else. (Cause you know, Japan has shit taste, but I'm sure you all must be acquainted with that)

It's the international community that is so culturally different from Japan where she's hated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos
I dislike her because she does that to every character, not just Zenkichi.
The minute she disappears or drops out of focus for an extended period of time, the other cast members are actually able to do things and the manga's quality skyrockets. Just look at the Treasure Hunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover
this and that she's still not quite as developed as her fans say she is. I was beginning to amend my dislike for her in the jet black wedding arc, but thanks to the current one right now I see that there's little to no change at all.
sure she says now "I want" but she still doesnt seem to have taken in much of what others have said to her, as evident in the latest chapter.

also, I just dont believe she deserves zenkichi. and zenkichi shouldnt be with her, for his own benefit. its more that she abused him and isnt healthy for him rather than stealing his spotlight that makes me dislike her.


Bravo, gentlemen. Bravo.
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Old 2013-01-27, 13:15   Link #11866
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I'm not responding you word for word because the back and forth of "No you were trying to tell me that my opinion is wring in-between the lines!" is completely pointless and it's just one useless statement after the other by both.
If you think that what you write about this subject is pointless and useless, that's good for you. I didn't write anything pointless or useless though, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that I did.

Quote:
As for you wanting me to prove that Medaka didn't uncontrollably love humanity at age 2, a simple examination of the manga will answer:

I was only making an affimation of non-belief, truthfully, the reason for her wanting a finite goal so much are unknown and hinges on her childhood psychology, as Lupus stated. We just know that she wasn't who she is now at age 2.

And you can easily prove that using one single scan:

Spoiler:


"Because you taught me my reason for living, I became me"
I'll go over this again, slowly this time. At the age of 2, Medaka was so seperate from people that she almost became a nihlist based on a simple conversation with Kumagawa. After this, she met Zenkichi, who gave her a reason to live. My question is, why would Medaka so easily accept what Zenkichi said? She was already influenced by Kumagawa, if she had simply wanted a goal, why would she accept Kumagawa so easily? If she was in that much despair, she would not have accepted what Zenkichi said so easily. The reason is because even in the midst of the loneliness and despair, she still felt love. Love for the humans that excluded her, which is why she accepted Zenkichi's words so easily

Quote:
I don't think any more words need to be said. But, anyways, just look at the rest of the manga:

Is this the Medaka that's uncontrollably in-love with humans? When you read "I thought of those around me as fools" you think "I love people!"
Since when was loving people and thinking of them as idiots mutually exclusive?

Quote:
Can't you see that she's clearly an impressionable child who would accept whatever finite goal she was given out of desperation? Or would the Medaka that loves humans so much stop and consider Kumagawa's reasoning as the best until someone gave her an actual goal?
And therein lies the flaw in your reasoning. Why would Medaka, someone who has been rejected by humans accept a life goal that would make her live life for people's sakes? That's like someone who is allergic to peanuts, deliberately eating peanuts. No one would do that unless they had a good reason. For Medaka it's because she loves people. She wants to be close to people.


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Sure, why not? Likewise, that applies to every fanbase.
That's fine, however you as a part of that minority can't make an objective judgement on how the minority affects the whole.


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That's really not the point, though.

The point is that when you compare her to someone like Kumagawa, it's obvious that she's nowhere near as loved.
The point is that you cannot know that, at least by using forums as a frame of reference. While it's true that people like Kumagawa, how can you tell, juging from a forum, whether it's really a large amount of the majority that like Kumagawa, or a small minority that's really vocal about how much they like him?

In any case, people that discuss stuff on forums make up a small percentage of fans. There are lots of people who read the manga and never come near a forum. For all you know, the majority of fans could hate Kumagawa and love Medaka.

Quote:
Oh, yeah. Undoubtedly.

The Japanese have a much higher rate of approval for Medaka than probably anyone else. (Cause you know, Japan has shit taste, but I'm sure you all must be acquainted with that)

It's the international community that is so culturally different from Japan where she's hated.
Because it's so sensible that insult the taste of a whole country...
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Old 2013-01-27, 14:00   Link #11867
Lupus753
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I should stay out of this argument that I've already invested far too much time in. It's clearly not leading anywhere, as everyone (myself included) has just repeated the same main points over and over with minor alterations.
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Old 2013-01-27, 14:10   Link #11868
telamont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
The Japanese have a much higher rate of approval for Medaka than probably anyone else. (Cause you know, Japan has shit taste, but I'm sure you all must be acquainted with that)

It's the international community that is so culturally different from Japan where she's hated.


I know that tastes vary. And there's that saying "Opinions are like arseholes..." But you do realize that you're posting (and quite frequently too, if the past few pages are any indication) on an Anime and Manga forum, looking down your nose on Japan's so called "shit taste" right?

Anywhere else and I'll just shrug. And accept that tastes vary, bigots exist. But here? Sorry. Just can't take that quote seriously. Thanks for the laugh though.
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Old 2013-01-27, 16:05   Link #11869
DawnEmperor
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As a bit of deviation from this discussion, does Kumagawa count as the tritagonist of the series? Or is he more just a main protagonist?
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Old 2013-01-28, 03:13   Link #11870
Viridian
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To me he came off as a major supporting character after his arc ended.
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Old 2013-01-28, 23:06   Link #11871
silvercover
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then became more or less an MC replacing akune.
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Old 2013-01-29, 01:56   Link #11872
Clarste
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I would call Medaka, Zenkichi and Kumagawa the main trio right now. Medaka is Medaka, for better or worse, but Kumagawa is being treated as roughly equivalent to Zenkichi in importance. For example, that chapter where they were both having important dreams at the same time (which ended with Medaka picking them up as if no one else was important). So I'd put them all in the same "main character" group.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:31   Link #11873
DawnEmperor
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I would call Medaka, Zenkichi and Kumagawa the main trio right now. Medaka is Medaka, for better or worse, but Kumagawa is being treated as roughly equivalent to Zenkichi in importance. For example, that chapter where they were both having important dreams at the same time (which ended with Medaka picking them up as if no one else was important). So I'd put them all in the same "main character" group.
Alright, guess I'll concede on this point(someone else was arguing that Kumagawa was the tritagonist ever since his heel face turn, while I leaned more to simply "main cast", but not literally third most important. Semantics I guess). He obviously still had a role, but I never really felt there was a third main character specifically; just major characters who had their backstory fleshed out.

But how does one define Deuteragonist and Tritagonist, as opposed to a sidekick, lancer, or just being in the main cast?
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Old 2013-01-29, 12:12   Link #11874
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
But how does one define Deuteragonist and Tritagonist, as opposed to a sidekick, lancer, or just being in the main cast?
I think it depends on amount of focus and relevance to the story.
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Old 2013-01-29, 12:57   Link #11875
Guernsey
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That kind of happened in Dragonball in regards to the characters to the point where Goku became the only character doing any fighting in GT.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:32   Link #11876
maplehurry
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Spoiler for 180:
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:43   Link #11877
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Spoiler for 180:
Thanks for the spoilers.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:50   Link #11878
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Spoiler:
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:56   Link #11879
K. Shiruto
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I bet you anything this spoiler will please Wolfenstein, a lot.
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:02   Link #11880
maplehurry
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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