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Old 2013-01-16, 11:28   Link #61
Tusjecht
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So I was rewatching episode 19 today, and i realised: is Crimson kingbolt a model figurine otaku? or whatever you call those self-assembly models of gundam fighters.
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:36   Link #62
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
So I was rewatching episode 19 today, and i realised: is Crimson kingbolt a model figurine otaku? or whatever you call those self-assembly models of gundam fighters.
Mega-Machine Awakening has to be one of the dumbest powers ever.

You saw how much scrap metal his girls had to gather for him, and how much time it took them while Black Lotus kept the enemy busy. When Kingbolt is dueling by himself, how is he supposed to find the time to do that?

Balancing the difficulty of the move would require making the robot SO effective that it's practically an I Win button.

Which boils his every fight down to "Can I gather a big enough pile of scrap metal while someone is trying to kill me, and when they will most likely try to scatter whatever pile I create?" If he succeeds, it's a foregone conclusion.
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Old 2013-01-17, 00:05   Link #63
Tusjecht
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Well, considering he had the best longe-range firepower until Scarlet Rain came along, the difficulty in gathering scrap metal is probably the balancing thing. Just like Rain, who is only equipped with a pistol outside of her Immobile fortress mode.

Well, Rain has it easier. Unless Kingbolt teamed up with Orchid Oracle to change the stage to the Weathered stage all the time, he probably had to find some other ways to win. You wrote that about Yellow Radio, right?
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Old 2013-01-17, 06:22   Link #64
Tusjecht
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I was on a spree today; watched the OVA as well, when this came to mind:

Could Megumi have been playing one of the other acceleration-based games? The wand that her avatar is holding is ridiculously Meruru-ish, and the hairstyle is just like that mysterious girl in the OVA.

Furthermore, if KYH and gang can play other acceleration games without much trouble, it's not hard to think the reverse is possible.
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Old 2013-01-17, 15:51   Link #65
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Well, considering he had the best longe-range firepower until Scarlet Rain came along, the difficulty in gathering scrap metal is probably the balancing thing.
Scarlet Rain may have superior firepower (because of her higher level or not), but the Mega-Machine is potentially superior for close-range engagement.

Granted, Rain has never had a reason to move her Fortress or attempt to physically strike someone with its bulk or limbs... And it does have ventral thrusters which are presumably meant for increasing speed... But we've never seen it happen, either.

However (unless I misremember that fight) we do know the Mega-Machine is capable of physically grappling with a Legendary Enemy. I'm willing to imagine the robot is fast, reasonably agile, and capable of delivering powerful blows.

If nothing else, the Mega-Machine can use its hands and greater flexibility to pull off any smaller opponents that grab on.


Quote:
Just like Rain, who is only equipped with a pistol outside of her Immobile fortress mode.
Except there is no special condition required to summon the Fortress.

At the same time, she's two levels higher. But maybe CriKin is punching above his weightclass by hobbling his mecha with such a conditional restriction?
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Old 2013-01-18, 01:10   Link #66
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
However (unless I misremember that fight) we do know the Mega-Machine is capable of physically grappling with a Legendary Enemy. I'm willing to imagine the robot is fast, reasonably agile, and capable of delivering powerful blows.

If nothing else, the Mega-Machine can use its hands and greater flexibility to pull off any smaller opponents that grab on.

At the same time, she's two levels higher. But maybe CriKin is punching above his weightclass by hobbling his mecha with such a conditional restriction?
You probably did. Crikin did not engage SP and his dinosaur in CQC, he just spammed missiles until he got fried by Charcoal Smoke + Scorching Breath.

That said, maybe an alternative idea is that the level of the Mega-Machine Crikin can create is limited by the amount of metal he can gather? Depending on your subber, the line he says is "The amount of metal you can gather determines the outcome of this fight." So perhaps he forms a small machine, a medium machine, and the Mega Machine, increasing his firepower and ability with each form.
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Old 2013-01-28, 22:07   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Actually, according to this post in the LN discussion thread, at least at one point Haru had an option for a ranged attack as a level up bonus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
Which means that Crow did indeed had the option for long range but decided it would be better to be more heavily invested in his flight, as my point on specialization being the best way to win fights pointed out, thus making close combat a preference for him, rather than a restriction, thereby supporting my hypothesis that metallic avatars have flexible attack styles.
Ash Roller is a close-combat type, yet even at Level 2 he had the option of adding long-range weapons to his motorcycle. So, that's not particular to Metallic Colors at all.

Indeed, if Scarlet Rain chose to sink all of her bonuses into long-range firepower, which is already the hallmark of her color, that suggests she could have chosen something un-Red-like.


Therefore, Brain Burst allows you to invest in abilities outside of your color's specialty. But those abilities are going to suck unless you invest further bonuses into them.

That only makes sense, right? You can choose to generalize your avatar, but it's an uphill climb. Bonuses that fit your color's specialty may not be any stronger, but they're building upon the foundation that's already there.


So Haruyuki could have chosen to give Silver Crow a ranged attack, but given the game's balancing engine, the darts would have been rather whimpy. Low damage, low accuracy, low rate of fire, poor range...

He could theoretically win a fight by shooting people from the sky, but I bet it would have taken him a long while. Ultimately, no single upgrade would ever be more effective than his default specialty of dive-bombing strikes. The only use for the darts would be to mix up his strategy and be more unpredictable.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:25   Link #68
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Ash Roller is a close-combat type, yet even at Level 2 he had the option of adding long-range weapons to his motorcycle. So, that's not particular to Metallic Colors at all.

Indeed, if Scarlet Rain chose to sink all of her bonuses into long-range firepower, which is already the hallmark of her color, that suggests she could have chosen something un-Red-like.


Therefore, Brain Burst allows you to invest in abilities outside of your color's specialty. But those abilities are going to suck unless you invest further bonuses into them.

That only makes sense, right? You can choose to generalize your avatar, but it's an uphill climb. Bonuses that fit your color's specialty may not be any stronger, but they're building upon the foundation that's already there.


So Haruyuki could have chosen to give Silver Crow a ranged attack, but given the game's balancing engine, the darts would have been rather whimpy. Low damage, low accuracy, low rate of fire, poor range...

He could theoretically win a fight by shooting people from the sky, but I bet it would have taken him a long while. Ultimately, no single upgrade would ever be more effective than his default specialty of dive-bombing strikes. The only use for the darts would be to mix up his strategy and be more unpredictable.
That explains why Taku had so many other moves: Splash Stinger, Spiral Gravity Driver, Lightning Cyan Spike. It's not too difficult to imagine one bonus per level gave him one new move, but in turn compromised the full potential of his pile driver had he concentrated his bonuses on it.

Spoiler for Taku's better-adviced choices:
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Old 2013-01-29, 11:22   Link #69
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Ash Roller is a close-combat type, yet even at Level 2 he had the option of adding long-range weapons to his motorcycle. So, that's not particular to Metallic Colors at all.
That is true, though there is still the extremely faint possibility of it being a result of his colour saturation in relation to black-white, so we can't rule it out 100% for now, though your theory seems to be the most solid one.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Indeed, if Scarlet Rain chose to sink all of her bonuses into long-range firepower, which is already the hallmark of her color, that suggests she could have chosen something un-Red-like.
Don't forget though that Scarlet Rain isn't 100% pure red, a fact that Yellow Radio never fails to remind her of (kukukunowisn'tthatcolourabitcheaplooking...).

According to wikipedia,
Quote:
Scarlet (from the Persian سقرلات saqerlât; see Scarlet (cloth)) is a bright reddish orange color with a hue that is somewhat toward the orange and is redder than vermilion.
So they could be referring to the fact that Rain still has access to yellow/orange bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Therefore, Brain Burst allows you to invest in abilities outside of your color's specialty. But those abilities are going to suck unless you invest further bonuses into them.

That only makes sense, right? You can choose to generalize your avatar, but it's an uphill climb. Bonuses that fit your color's specialty may not be any stronger, but they're building upon the foundation that's already there.
There is one quote in the light novel that goes against this though.

From volume 6, chapter 3,

Quote:
“N-No way… I mean, from my perspective, everybody in that place is above the clouds, but I can’t imagine there was someone there that should make you say that much. I-I mean, you are a level niner like the rest of them, right? Isn’t “same level, same potential” one of the principles of the accelerated world…..?”
If you were to invest your bonus into something your avatar isn't suited for, that would leave you disadvantaged, wouldn't it? In the opening arc of the light novels, Kuroyukihime already established that 'potential' refers to the how powerful an avatar is, so we do know for a fact that 'potential' here does not mean how powerful an avatar can possibly get.

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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
That explains why Taku had so many other moves: Splash Stinger, Spiral Gravity Driver, Lightning Cyan Spike.
That's really because according to the light novels, cyan is blue with a slight hint of purple.
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Old 2013-01-29, 11:31   Link #70
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
There is one quote in the light novel that goes against this though.

If you were to invest your bonus into something your avatar isn't suited for, that would leave you disadvantaged, wouldn't it? In the opening arc of the light novels, Kuroyukihime already established that 'potential' refers to the how powerful an avatar is, so we do know for a fact that 'potential' here does not mean how powerful an avatar can possibly get.


That's really because according to the light novels, cyan is blue with a slight hint of purple.
Maybe, KYH means maximum potential. Someone who put their upgrades into close-range for four levels, versus Cyan Pile at Level 4. Without Cyan Blade, I'm more inclined to believe CP has the greater probability of losing.

Edit: However, of course Dusk Taker broke this rule with his OP move. But hopefully he's just an exception.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:35   Link #71
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
That explains why Taku had so many other moves: Splash Stinger, Spiral Gravity Driver, Lightning Cyan Spike. It's not too difficult to imagine one bonus per level gave him one new move, but in turn compromised the full potential of his pile driver had he concentrated his bonuses on it.
It also provides a clue as to why he called Splash Stinger his "level two move". Because it's probably the attack he bought with his bonus for achieving Level 2.

I'd sure like to know what other options he had. Splash Stinger seems pretty solidly useful, but I'd like to know what options he had for upgrading the Pile Driver or Cyan Lightning Spike.

The bonus spent to purchase Spiral Gravity Driver was clearly a mistake, though there's really no reason why an alternate application of his first special attack should be so much worse than his first basic attack.

It's not known what he spent his other two bonuses on before the start of the show. He might have upgraded his avatar's armor or some other parameter, or perhaps reduced the SP cost of his special attacks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
From volume 6, chapter 3,
Your quotation lacks context. I don't know who's talking, or whom he's talking to, or whom he's talking about.


Quote:
If you were to invest your bonus into something your avatar isn't suited for, that would leave you disadvantaged, wouldn't it? In the opening arc of the light novels, Kuroyukihime already established that 'potential' refers to the how powerful an avatar is, so we do know for a fact that 'potential' here does not mean how powerful an avatar can possibly get.
All avatars must start with the same potential, but different Burst Linkers have varying levels of talent for dueling, just as some have better talents for scheming or cheating or gathering followers or effectively leading a legion.

It might be possible to "spec" your avatar in a crappy way, but I'd say it has more to do with how you use what you've got.

But there are definite advantages to specializing in just one thing, especially when you team up with other specialists. I imagine that was Graphite Edge's idea, and it's a good one.

Part of Takumu's problem was trying to depend too much on himself, rather than making friends. So he spread his avatar's potential out, rather than focusing it.


Of course, the other benefit to specializing in just one thing is forcing yourself to get REALLY good at it. Maybe not every problem is a nail, but when all you have is a hammer, you WILL learn how any possible way that a hammer can be used to fix your problems.

And it's going to be the best damn hammer in the world, because of all of the bonuses you've sunk into it. Look at Black Lotus, who forced Yellow Radio to fight in a way that he sucks at because he could NOT risk her getting in one good shot with those blades-of-instant-death.


Quote:
That's really because according to the light novels, cyan is blue with a slight hint of purple.
Tus wasn't talking about the range of Cyan Pile's attacks, but the fact that he had so many different ones. Because he spent two of his four bonuses to buy two more attacks.
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Old 2013-01-29, 21:59   Link #72
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Your quotation lacks context. I don't know who's talking, or whom he's talking to, or whom he's talking about.
That doesn't make the quote any less reliable, however, doesn't it? If you really must know, though, it's Haru talking to Niko after the 2nd King's Summit about Scarlet Rain's ability compared to the other kings.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
All avatars must start with the same potential, but different Burst Linkers have varying levels of talent for dueling, just as some have better talents for scheming or cheating or gathering followers or effectively leading a legion.
That may be true, but I doubt the system will tweak their avatars to compensate for that, so it's a moot point in this case as we're talking about the avatars themselves, not them + their controllers.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
It might be possible to "spec" your avatar in a crappy way, but I'd say it has more to do with how you use what you've got.

But there are definite advantages to specializing in just one thing, especially when you team up with other specialists. I imagine that was Graphite Edge's idea, and it's a good one.

Part of Takumu's problem was trying to depend too much on himself, rather than making friends. So he spread his avatar's potential out, rather than focusing it.


Of course, the other benefit to specializing in just one thing is forcing yourself to get REALLY good at it. Maybe not every problem is a nail, but when all you have is a hammer, you WILL learn how any possible way that a hammer can be used to fix your problems.

And it's going to be the best damn hammer in the world, because of all of the bonuses you've sunk into it. Look at Black Lotus, who forced Yellow Radio to fight in a way that he sucks at because he could NOT risk her getting in one good shot with those blades-of-instant-death.
While I did say that specialisation might be the easiest way to win duels, I don't think it is the only way, though.

Cyan Pile and his Splash Stinger made me realise that if you plan and carefully select just one, weak bonus that is of a different affinity than what you currently want your avatar to specialise in, you afford yourself a slight versatility, which actually gives you an edge over an avatar that has had pure specialisation in most situations.

If, for example, Pile were to be set up against a pure close-combat avatar, he could spear the guy as he was coming up close to get in range. Having gone through 4-5 levels with his pile driver, he should have decent enough aim to spear most average speed avatars.

Now, if he didn't have Splash Stinger, he would have no choice but to close the range and the opening attack would have simply been just that, an opening attack. However, since he does have Splash Stinger, he can use it and bombard his opponent constantly, smashing a few elements while doing so to keep his gauge up.

Opponent trying to break your spike? Shoot his hands. Opponent pulling himself closer towards you by pulling along your spike? Retract and draw again, this time, pushing your feet off the ground so you use your opponent as an anchor, thus using the pile driver's power to propel yourself out of range.

Yes, the battle might be slow, but Cyan Pile has an almost 100% chance of winning, having forced his opponent out of his comfort zone and rendering him powerless, as in focusing on a single affinity, he has neglected other affinities.

Also, note that this does not take into consideration any of the other moves Pile currently has, and also doesn't count the possible level up bonuses he could have had if he had specialised only on his pile driver and chose Splash Stinger as a contrasting ability.
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Old 2013-01-29, 23:13   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
That doesn't make the quote any less reliable, however, doesn't it?
It makes it less convincing, because I can't be sure exactly what point it's making, or tell how it's trying to make that point.


Quote:
If you really must know, though, it's Haru talking to Niko after the 2nd King's Summit about Scarlet Rain's ability compared to the other kings.
So maybe you should have quoted her words, because that's what I really need to get a feel for her informed opinion on the matter. What good is Haruyuki's barely informed opinion?


Quote:
That may be true, but I doubt the system will tweak their avatars to compensate for that
I'm sure it doesn't. That was my point.

All avatars are equal, and all choices for upgrade are equal, but not all Burst Linkers are equal. Success depends on who you are and how well you can use what you have.


Quote:
Cyan Pile and his Splash Stinger made me realise that if you plan and carefully select just one, weak bonus that is of a different affinity than what you currently want your avatar to specialise in, you afford yourself a slight versatility, which actually gives you an edge over an avatar that has had pure specialisation in most situations.
Silver Crow and his potential ranged attack are a good example. If he had chosen that, he would have had something to fall back on if faced with an opponent he did not dare to punch or kick.

If someone is using tactics specifically designed to defeat his ability to dive-strike from the sky, using a different tactic like sniping from the sky might throw his opponent off. And Crow could switch back and forth between the two strategies to keep his opponent guessing.

But to really make that work, Crow would need to practice and gain experience with using the ranged attack, which is time and effort not spent mastering his flying and strike skills or developing ways to deal with counter-tactics against his dive-bombing.


Quote:
Now, if he didn't have Splash Stinger, he would have no choice but to close the range and the opening attack would have simply been just that, an opening attack.
Alternatively, he can do what Red avatars would do when a normal Blue charges at them: Retreat.

If Pile walks backward (and jumps backward between shots), he increases the time available before his opponent catches him, and therefore also the number of shots he can fire.


Quote:
However, since he does have Splash Stinger, he can use it and bombard his opponent constantly, smashing a few elements while doing so to keep his gauge up.
You're missing two of the most important advantages of Splash Stinger: Area-of-effect, and fire-and-forget.

While the Pile Driver's extending strike is fast (and its range may be unexpected), if the opponent properly anticipates and dodges it, Cyan Pile is vulnerable until the spike retracts, and unable to fire another shot until it does.

Cyan Pile can recover his defense faster after using Splash Stinger, whether to fire another volley, or to close up his chest plates and either retreat, dodge, block or fire off the Pile Driver.

Splash Stinger's volley of spikes is also more likely to hit a target, making it a good weapon against small, agile targets like Silver Crow. Meanwhile, the Pile Driver remains the better weapon to use against large, heavily-armored targets like himself.

Really, if there could have possibly been a better choice for Cyan Pile than Splash Stinger, I'd love to hear it.

But it would really help him out if he could swap out Spiral Gravity Hammer for a normal sword, or some other method of improving his face-to-face combat ability.
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Old 2013-01-29, 23:36   Link #74
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
So maybe you should have quoted her words, because that's what I really need to get a feel for her informed opinion on the matter. What good is Haruyuki's barely informed opinion?
Quote:
“…It’s that “there are exceptions to every rule” thing. Listen here, level 9 is, in reality, the “cap” for brain burst. 'Cause no matter how many points you earn, you can’t go to the next level. The path to become level 10 is hunting down five other level 9s… meaning making five other people lose all their points. On the flip side…”
Lowering her eyes again, Niko whispered quietly:
“That means when you become level 9, nobody else can figure out how much time you spent on the accelerated world, and how much experience you gained. On that I thought I ain’t losing to the rest of the king crowd. In the accelerated world, I thought I had the power to not have what I lost in the real world taken away again. But… I was naïve. They… the Originators, have long ago overcome the wounds I’m clinging to. Those… What would you call them, if not monsters?”
As you can see, there wasn't much of a point in me doing so, as the context doesn't alter my point, which was that Brain Burst is built on the concept of "same level, same potential".

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I'm sure it doesn't. That was my point.

All avatars are equal, and all choices for upgrade are equal, but not all Burst Linkers are equal. Success depends on who you are and how well you can use what you have.
I take it then, that you agree that based on that concept, it would not be possible for a chromatic avatar to select an ability that is out of its spectrum of affinity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Silver Crow and his potential ranged attack are a good example. If he had chosen that, he would have had something to fall back on if faced with an opponent he did not dare to punch or kick.

If someone is using tactics specifically designed to defeat his ability to dive-strike from the sky, using a different tactic like sniping from the sky might throw his opponent off. And Crow could switch back and forth between the two strategies to keep his opponent guessing.

But to really make that work, Crow would need to practice and gain experience with using the ranged attack, which is time and effort not spent mastering his flying and strike skills or developing ways to deal with counter-tactics against his dive-bombing.
But as Niko said, when you're at endgame, the only thing that is going to rank you against other level 9 avatars is the amount of time you have played the game. If Crow took the versatility, it does give him a slightly heightened chance of surviving to level 9 as compared to having to constantly rely on his flight. Once he gets to level 9 he can have all the time in the (Accelerated) world to improve his flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
You're missing two of the most important advantages of Splash Stinger: Area-of-effect, and fire-and-forget.

While the Pile Driver's extending strike is fast (and its range may be unexpected), if the opponent properly anticipates and dodges it, Cyan Pile is vulnerable until the spike retracts, and unable to fire another shot until it does.
What's stopping him from using Splash Stinger when his spike is out? The resulting distraction will give him the time he needs to recover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But it would really help him out if he could swap out Spiral Gravity Hammer for a normal sword, or some other method of improving his face-to-face combat ability.
I doubt that option would be available to him, though, as I think the system wanted his avatar to be centered around his pile driver. This is the fact that Pile had been banking on which prevented Taker from stealing his pile driver. Giving him another weapon would be like giving Roller another ride.
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Old 2013-01-30, 06:22   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
I take it then, that you agree that based on that concept, it would not be possible for a chromatic avatar to select an ability that is out of its spectrum of affinity?
I don't agree at all.


Quote:
If Crow took the versatility, it does give him a slightly heightened chance of surviving to level 9 as compared to having to constantly rely on his flight.
Not really.


Quote:
Once he gets to level 9 he can have all the time in the (Accelerated) world to improve his flight.
His skill at flying, yes. But not its basic power. There are no more level up bonuses once you hit Level 9.


Quote:
What's stopping him from using Splash Stinger when his spike is out? The resulting distraction will give him the time he needs to recover.
His arms, pile driver and stake will be in front of his chest. Splash Stinger will inflict damage on himself. He needs to pull his arms out wide and away from his chest before using that move.


Quote:
I doubt that option would be available to him, though, as I think the system wanted his avatar to be centered around his pile driver.
Quote:
Giving him another weapon would be like giving Roller another ride.
I said "a normal sword". Doesn't do anything but cut and parry. Not the equal of the Pile Driver.

Besides, Scarlet Rain has two weapons. She presumably started with that sidearm, and then invested bonuses into building the Immobile Fortress.
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Old 2013-01-30, 07:07   Link #76
Orange Duke
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I don't agree at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
All avatars must start with the same potential, but different Burst Linkers have varying levels of talent for dueling, just as some have better talents for scheming or cheating or gathering followers or effectively leading a legion.
Yet your comment here doesn't talk anything about the avatar itself, but rather its controller. When you wrote that comment in reply to my point, I had assumed that this was your rebuttal, thus I pointed it out as being a moot point in that context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Not really.
But you yourself said that Splash Stinger, an move that affords Cyan Pile considerable versatility, was the best level up bonus Pile could have chosen. While the darts for Silver Crow, for example, might have taken quite a while to finish the opponent, it still offers the advantage of having a higher certainty of bagging the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
His skill at flying, yes. But not its basic power. There are no more level up bonuses once you hit Level 9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But to really make that work, Crow would need to practice and gain experience with using the ranged attack, which is time and effort not spent mastering his flying and strike skills or developing ways to deal with counter-tactics against his dive-bombing.
I was replying to this quote, where nothing was said about the power of his flight but rather the time spent to master it. If you want to talk about the power of flight, then you have to weight that against having the versatility of switching out attacks in a pinch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
His arms, pile driver and stake will be in front of his chest. Splash Stinger will inflict damage on himself. He needs to pull his arms out wide and away from his chest before using that move.
Erm, as far as I can see, only his arm, which was used to brace the pile driver when it fires, is across his torso. Whether it was across his chest, I cannot say for certain but what IS certain is that he can move his bracing arm away while the pile driver is retracting, so he can still shoot his Splash Stinger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I said "a normal sword". Doesn't do anything but cut and parry. Not the equal of the Pile Driver.

Besides, Scarlet Rain has two weapons. She presumably started with that sidearm, and then invested bonuses into building the Immobile Fortress.
Then he can simply find one in the Unlimited Field as an Enhanced Armament. No need to waste a level-up bonus on that.

Rain's gun is probably an Enhanced Armament that she found. Her name refers to the rain of death and destruction that she fires from her Immobile Fortress, which is also in line with her desire of trying to protect herself from the world. Nothing says "Go away." like a giant fortress raining bullet hell on you. The system has no control over which direction your avatar develops, so there is definitely a reason why she was named that in the first place.
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Old 2013-01-30, 15:28   Link #77
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
Yet your comment here...
I think you've been misunderstanding me for a while now.

I have been saying that Duel Avatars can be generalized by choosing bonuses which do not fit inside the specialty of the avatar's color.

AND I have been saying that it's not necesssarily better or worse to do so. There are clear advantages and disavantages to both paths.

AND I have been saying that specialization within your specialty is (generally) the better path when you are teaming up with other specialists, like the Elements of the Black Legion did with each other and Kuroyukihime.

Possibly also what the Seven Kings of Pure Color did before they hit Level 9. They might have teamed up together to crawl the UNF's various dungeons.

Finally, I have ALSO been saying that one of the things which determines the success of a generalist or specialist is the Burst Linker.



Quote:
But you yourself said that Splash Stinger, an move that affords Cyan Pile considerable versatility, was the best level up bonus Pile could have chosen.
Nope. Wrong on two counts.

I said that it was a great choice, and that I would really like to know what his other choices were and how they could be better. Maybe Splash Stinger IS specializing in his chosen strategy (mid-range piercing attacks) rather than a deviation.

And that's the other mistake: While Splash Stinger is different from Extending Jab, it's not THAT different. It's still a mid-range piercing attack.

A truly diversifying bonus would have been the sword I mentioned.



Quote:
Erm, as far as I can see, only his arm, which was used to brace the pile driver when it fires, is across his torso. Whether it was across his chest, I cannot say for certain but what IS certain is that he can move his bracing arm away while the pile driver is retracting, so he can still shoot his Splash Stinger.
But the spikes will still strike his Pile Driver, its stake and the arm holding them up.


Quote:
Then he can simply find one in the Unlimited Field as an Enhanced Armament. No need to waste a level-up bonus on that.
Yeah, that's a real bummer.

What about Blue Knight's original sword? How many bonuses did he sink into that before he got the Impulse?

How do you think the game handles this? Do you just have to take the risk that you'll never simply FIND a better weapon?


Quote:
Rain's gun is probably an Enhanced Armament that she found. Her name refers to the rain of death and destruction that she fires from her Immobile Fortress
I highly doubt she started with the Immobile Fortress. Her sidearm is more likely her starting weapon, and if it's particularly powerful, that's probably because it's the vector for her original Special Attack* and also the focus of a bonus or two.

*Perhaps a more modest form of Heat Blast Saturation?

Even as a Level 1, Rain might have rained down fire on her enemies through rapidfire shots or an orignal special attack that enabled rapid fire.
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Old 2013-01-30, 20:55   Link #78
Orange Duke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I think you've been misunderstanding me for a while now.
Righty o. I guess I'd better double check with you then, because your choices of words means that sometimes your points come out as rather ambiguous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I have been saying that Duel Avatars can be generalized by choosing bonuses which do not fit inside the specialty of the avatar's color.
By "do not fit inside the specialty of the avatar's color", do you mean outside of what the avatar has chose to specialise himself in but still within the affinities of his colour, like how Cyan Pile is heavily invested in multi-ranged attacks but can also invest in close range attacks? Or do you mean OUTSIDE of those affinities, eg. Red having a melee bonus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
AND I have been saying that it's not necesssarily better or worse to do so. There are clear advantages and disavantages to both paths.

AND I have been saying that specialization within your specialty is (generally) the better path when you are teaming up with other specialists, like the Elements of the Black Legion did with each other and Kuroyukihime.

Possibly also what the Seven Kings of Pure Color did before they hit Level 9. They might have teamed up together to crawl the UNF's various dungeons.

Finally, I have ALSO been saying that one of the things which determines the success of a generalist or specialist is the Burst Linker.
These points I did not misunderstand, but they are separate points from our original discussion about whether or not chromatic avatars have access to bonuses outside their affinities, whereas these points cover how effective the avatar actually will be.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Nope. Wrong on two counts.

I said that it was a great choice, and that I would really like to know what his other choices were and how they could be better.
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Really, if there could have possibly been a better choice for Cyan Pile than Splash Stinger, I'd love to hear it.
I'm sure you can see how I would've misunderstood your point due to your choice of words.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Maybe Splash Stinger IS specializing in his chosen strategy (mid-range piercing attacks) rather than a deviation.
That is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
A truly diversifying bonus would have been the sword I mentioned.
And when you consider how much of an advantage it can give him, it does support my point about how having a slight deviation from a singular specialty can make you more powerful than an avatar that has been purely focusing on a singular specialty due to the versatility. Duels are now a much more important source of points than ever, as avatar hunting in the Unlimited Field has become a dying sport thanks to the peace treaty, so while the "specialise as a group and make up for each other's weaknesses" was a viable tactic in the past, it has lost a bit of its efficiency. Dungeon clearing isn't as rewarding when you consider how little points enemies drop compared to how much effort it takes to bring one down. Most avatars clear dungeons for the loot at the end, like one of the Seven Arcs for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But the spikes will still strike his Pile Driver, its stake and the arm holding them up.
Bracing hand won't be needed when the spike is retracting. The following scenes from the anime show that his pile driver is fired from the side, giving full clearance for Splash Stinger, which comes from his chest.

Spoiler for :


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
What about Blue Knight's original sword? How many bonuses did he sink into that before he got the Impulse?

How do you think the game handles this? Do you just have to take the risk that you'll never simply FIND a better weapon?
In this case, it isn't how the game handles it but rather the player. In a normal grinding RPG, you plan your route for endgame equipment, eg. what sword to use at level 30, what helmet at level 50 etc. Some games gives you the option of enhancing or upgrading your equipment and some players do that to weapons which they plan on disposing in order to increase the efficiency of grinding while others keep the weapons clean in order to save up the in-game currency. This is almost the same for Brain Burst, except that what you're spending is precious level-up bonuses which is an extremely finite resource, not in-game currency that you can simply grind more of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I highly doubt she started with the Immobile Fortress. Her sidearm is more likely her starting weapon, and if it's particularly powerful, that's probably because it's the vector for her original Special Attack* and also the focus of a bonus or two.

*Perhaps a more modest form of Heat Blast Saturation?

Even as a Level 1, Rain might have rained down fire on her enemies through rapidfire shots or an orignal special attack that enabled rapid fire.
That seems possible, but rain suggests projectiles coming down from an elevated position. Given Rain's size, that wouldn't be possible without some help.

Last edited by Orange Duke; 2013-02-10 at 12:24.
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Old 2013-01-31, 08:11   Link #79
Sunder the Gold
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If my words have been ambiguous or unclear, I apologize. I have been trying to be clear.


I disagree that generalizing or specializing impacts the efficacy of the avatar. All avatars and bonuses are equal. It's the users and situations that imbalance the odds.

Spiral Gravity Driver sucks because of author error. As I've said in Taku's thread, an attack like that should be Instant Death.


Cyan Pile muddies the issue about choosing bonuses outside of one's color specialty, since his initial abilities seem somewhat outside of it. One can pretend he's on the purple side of Blue, but his official position (and the color cyan) are on the green side.

But yes, just as Silver Crow could choose a ranged attack, I believe Scarlet Rain could have improved her close combat ability in some way. Perhaps a mecha more like the Mega-Machine, which has hands and therefore fists.


If you look at those pictures of Cyan Pile, you will notice that his stance is different. In the first, he is leaning forward, turning his chest away from the Pile Driver. In the second picture, he is leaning back, bracing the Driver against his chest.

Likely, the first stance is risky, reducing balance and accuracy to extend his range. Since it's for the basic attack, he can better afford to miss, and the range is not so long that another foot of reach would be pointless.

Likely, the second stance is intended to control the recoil of the Cyan Lightning Spike, retaining balance and accuracy for a shot that already leaves him vulnerable and absolutely needs to hit.

Either way, he can't use the Splash Stinger. The first stance would fire off target. Though, if an enemy happens to be approaching from that angle...


Given your fair point about Rain, it is possible that her original special attack was some more modest form of Hailstorm Domination. Perhaps she always had some form of missile launcher, but one that needed SP to use?

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2013-01-31 at 08:21.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:19   Link #80
Orange Duke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I disagree that generalizing or specializing impacts the efficacy of the avatar. All avatars and bonuses are equal. It's the users and situations that imbalance the odds.
But that's not what we're discussing. O.O We're discussing the possibility of metal avatars having access to a wide variety of level up bonuses while chromatic avatars are limited by their affinities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But yes, just as Silver Crow could choose a ranged attack, I believe Scarlet Rain could have improved her close combat ability in some way. Perhaps a mecha more like the Mega-Machine, which has hands and therefore fists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson

Quote:
It originally meant the color of the Kermes dye produced from a scale insect, Kermes vermilio, but the name is now also used as a generic term for slightly reddish-blue colors that are between red and rose
So that would explain why Mega-Machine Awakening had limbs that allowed it to perform close combat attacks.

Unfortunately, that also means it does not prove your point.

Comparing Crow to Rain also makes your point invalid, as the distinction we are discussing is between metal and chromatic avatars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
If you look at those pictures of Cyan Pile, you will notice that his stance is different. In the first, he is leaning forward, turning his chest away from the Pile Driver. In the second picture, he is leaning back, bracing the Driver against his chest.

Likely, the first stance is risky, reducing balance and accuracy to extend his range. Since it's for the basic attack, he can better afford to miss, and the range is not so long that another foot of reach would be pointless.
He was in the Purgatory stage, in the enclosed corridors of the hospital. Why in the world would he need longer range???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Likely, the second stance is intended to control the recoil of the Cyan Lightning Spike, retaining balance and accuracy for a shot that already leaves him vulnerable and absolutely needs to hit.

Either way, he can't use the Splash Stinger. The first stance would fire off target. Though, if an enemy happens to be approaching from that angle...
He could spear a moving bug on the wall with his pile driver. Without looking at it. That should say a lot about his accuracy with his pile driver.

It could just be that he has a habit of varying his stances or he uses the first stance in an enclosed space, while the second in an open area. This also means he could learn to get used to the first stance so that he is able to use Splash Stinger simultaneously.
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