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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 30 40.54%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 45.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 9.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.70%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-27, 22:11   Link #121
Triple_R
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It depends on how Sybil was initially sold to the public.

If Sybil was initially sold as this flawless, "Silver Bullet" system that will make the perfect society (and hence this is why we can tolerate its obvious downsides), then Qilin is correct.

If Sybil was initially sold as this imperfect but helpful system that will make a better society (like, say, the modern education system including post-secondary), then Anh_Minh is correct.


I get the impression that Sybil was sold in the flawless, "Silver Bullet" way. One can argue that this might not have been the best way to go about it, but once you do, you're committed to it. There's no turning back once you've made society think that this system is perfect and that's precisely why it should be supported. This is especially true when that system has been in place for two decades.

It would be like "The Party" of Orwell's 1984 admitting "Well, actually, Big Brother can be wrong sometimes. We should support him because he's usually right." There's real doubts that this will fly after you've whipped people up into viewing the system as perfect for decades.
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Old 2013-01-28, 01:09   Link #122
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
So yeah, I'm very disappointed in how people are oblivious to the bystander effect and don't make a statement about today's society and themselves. It's not just pure fiction, it's very real and we're all living factors of it. If I were to believe the Netizens, every single one thinks the other one is a good samaritan Rambo that would intervene. I'll start myself: I'd probably be scared shitless to intervene myself and most I'd do would probably be calling the police if I saw someone getting hammered on the street.
While the the bystander effect is good argument, it isn't what the show was trying to present, nor do I think it's purpose was to draw a comparison to today's world in that respect.

The problem with the crowd is that since they can no longer think of any criminal thoughts, they cannot comprehend that a crime is taking place, especially since the Sybil system has (for most part) removed all crime before it happens (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to your own opinion).
In a weird way, I am reminded of the movie The Invention of Lying.
Anyway, they obviously trust Sybil enough that if it's not sending out any warning signs (as in, a murder is taking place), then nothing is considered wrong.
They weren't thinking someone else might have called the police, they didn't consider anything wrong at all since they've lived in such a safe environment for such a long time.

It really brings back the point of only 'lawful' criminals can fight unlawful criminals, since the rest of society can no longer think of such a thing (or removed early on, etc).
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Old 2013-01-28, 02:05   Link #123
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Well, if they've successfully dealt with such dangerous characters effectively before, then that would in fact justify the nonchalant attitude the higher-ups are taking, wouldn't it?.
Public Enemy Number 1 is still Public Enemy Number 1, even if there were others before, and those others were (eventually) caught. So, no, it doesn't excuse their nonchalance. It doesn't excuse how unequipped they are to deal with the situation, on the contrary.

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That's what makes all the difference here. People have to believe in the system's perfection for it to work,
Nope. Like any other system of governance, people just have to believe it's good enough.

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and the fact is that most of them do. This is a system that nurtures and depends on the ignorance of the public to work,
No, it depends on them being willing to sacrifice freedom for comfort and security. That's not a value judgment, by the way - that's just the trade off they've made.

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so it's not really appropriate to compare it with the democratic governing institutions that we're familiar with.
When did I talk of democracy? It's irrelevant.
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But really, whether or not it was a flawed system to start with doesn't really say much about the intelligence of the people upholding that system. By sheer inertia alone, they are compelled to keep the system going even if they have doubts regarding it.
Yes. But the director's claim that people need to be kept ignorant is a nothing but a self-serving lie. She just doesn't want to explain herself to the masses.
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Old 2013-01-28, 05:26   Link #124
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
If Sybil was initially sold as this flawless, "Silver Bullet" system that will make the perfect society (and hence this is why we can tolerate its obvious downsides), then Qilin is correct.

If Sybil was initially sold as this imperfect but helpful system that will make a better society (like, say, the modern education system including post-secondary), then Anh_Minh is correct.
Good point. But really. Given current evidence, especially the irrational trust that most people seem to attribute to Sybil, I can't imagine that it could be anything but the former. It's a dystopia under the guise of a utopia.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Public Enemy Number 1 is still Public Enemy Number 1, even if there were others before, and those others were (eventually) caught. So, no, it doesn't excuse their nonchalance. It doesn't excuse how unequipped they are to deal with the situation, on the contrary.
On the contrary, it would indicate that they can reliably deal with such situations despite being unequipped. Given how nobody is aware of any similar incident in the past, I'm left to assume that it was dealt with silently and effectively, assuming such a thing even happened in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Nope. Like any other system of governance, people just have to believe it's good enough.
I'll repeat what I said. It's no good to compare this with the governing systems that we are familiar with. This system is much closer to a form of subtle brainwashing than anything else, and this brainwashing is dependent on the assumption that the Psycho-Pass hues are absolute. The society from Orwell's 1984 is a good comparison in this case.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, it depends on them being willing to sacrifice freedom for comfort and security. That's not a value judgment, by the way - that's just the trade off they've made.
But is that a conscious decision that the people go through in the first place, or a prerogative implanted through socialization and indoctrination?

As you note, if that belief in the security that the system provides is proven to be a sham, the society would disintegrate and crumble due to the loss of trust in the social contract, and that remains to be the worst case scenario that everyone is trying to avoid. I don't see the problem with my reasoning here.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes. But the director's claim that people need to be kept ignorant is a nothing but a self-serving lie. She just doesn't want to explain herself to the masses.
I'd agree with your ideas on governance if this was anything but an authoritarian state. The way things stand, the power of this authoritarian state hinges on the people's unwavering trust in it.
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Old 2013-01-28, 07:05   Link #125
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I'll start myself: I'd probably be scared shitless to intervene myself and most I'd do would probably be calling the police if I saw someone getting hammered on the street.
Umm....that's better than the way the crowd reacted here you know. Here they don't even react at all because they are that deadened
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Old 2013-01-28, 11:57   Link #126
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Right. Well, you won't get a peep from me regarding Sybil being flawed because it most certainly is, but you have to understand that Makishima is an anomaly. Before him, it was utterly unthinkable that anyone could possibly commit a crime without being judged by the Sybil system. To add to that, the idea of having a backup system within the public consciousness wasn't permitted. After all, for Sybil to work, people had to have an absolute, unshakable trust in the system. They had to believe in the perfection of Sybil, even if it wasn't, to the point that any sort of contingency planning would have been viewed as pointless.

There's a lot more at stake here than a few Enforcers' lives if they happen to back out on that philosophy now. It's very intricate really. You have a society tiptoeing over a knife's edge, so it makes sense to struggle and retain your balance even if it seems futile, especially given the alternative.
It's not a backup system, it's a whole system that the viewer can believe. Our group already deals daily with situations that cannot be perceived by Sybil. No scanners, scanner manipulating, immune to scanning etc. When they insist on failing just because they refuse cold hard facts, the show loses all its seriousness and I feel like I'm watching Demolition Man with No Sly and just Wesley Snipes as Makishima. They should go raid a museum or something and grab a Colt Peacemaker! That wouldn't do more damage to people's belief in the system than Makishima is doing on a daily basis already.
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I admit that I also found this somewhat questionable, but I do get the reasoning behind it. Once again, we're not just talking about a few lives anymore. We are in fact talking about adopting practices that would shake the very assumptions that the entire society is based on. Yes, Sybil is flawed, but abandoning it right then and there would have lead to the worst possible outcome, which would be widespread panic and anarchy.
It's not abandoning at all. It's like acting as if he's out of coverage somehow. How does the police handle situations in remote places from big cities anyway? How do they solve a case when some guy murders people in the forest? Too many holes in the system that would be worked around by the government if this system could work in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
While the the bystander effect is good argument, it isn't what the show was trying to present, nor do I think it's purpose was to draw a comparison to today's world in that respect.

The problem with the crowd is that since they can no longer think of any criminal thoughts, they cannot comprehend that a crime is taking place, especially since the Sybil system has (for most part) removed all crime before it happens (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to your own opinion).
In a weird way, I am reminded of the movie The Invention of Lying.
Anyway, they obviously trust Sybil enough that if it's not sending out any warning signs (as in, a murder is taking place), then nothing is considered wrong.
They weren't thinking someone else might have called the police, they didn't consider anything wrong at all since they've lived in such a safe environment for such a long time.

It really brings back the point of only 'lawful' criminals can fight unlawful criminals, since the rest of society can no longer think of such a thing (or removed early on, etc).
The show merely shows what would a society further down the road do but what's bone-chilling is that situations exactly like that already occurred until now. Check out these:
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In April 2010 Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed to death in New York City after coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a robber. Yax was on the sidewalk for more than an hour before firefighters arrived. Almost twenty-five people walked by while he lay dying on a sidewalk in Queens, several stared at Yax; one of them took pictures, however none of them helped or called emergency services.
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On June 16, 2008, on a country road outside Turlock, California, friends, family and strangers, including a volunteer fire chief, stood by as Sergio Aguiar methodically stomped his two-year-old son Axel Casian to death,[24] explaining in a calm voice that he "had to get the demons out" of the boy. He stopped at one point to turn on the hazard lights on his truck. No one moved to take the child or attack Aguiar. Witnesses said they were all afraid to intervene because Aguiar "might have something in his pocket", although some people looked for rocks or boards hoping to find something to subdue him. The fire chief's fiancee called 911.[25] Police officer Jerry Ramar arrived by helicopter and told Aguiar to stop. Aguiar gave Ramar the finger and Ramar shot him in the head.[26] Police officers and psychologists later explained that the inaction of the crowd was justified in that "ordinary people aren't going to tackle a psychotic," that they were not "psychologically prepared" to intervene, and that being frozen in indecision and fear is a normal reaction.
Suddenly the scene isn't that far-fetched now, is it? It's something that could literally happen tomorrow somewhere if the crowd didn't have somebody with extraordinary courage, initiative and feeling of responsibility in it.

However the show presented this as a case of dingo vs dodo, when it wasn't exactly that. The extreme feeling of safety and incomprehension would just reduce the chances of intervention but not eliminate it completely by itself.
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Umm....that's better than the way the crowd reacted here you know. Here they don't even react at all because they are that deadened
The thing is that there are so many people out there that's already deadened with no Sybil to talk of, so that examples like the ones I wrote above can happen. When there's such facts, I find it highly contradictory to see this many people on the Net that act like anyone could tackle a psychopath with a hammer and just shift all blame to a fictitious plot element.
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Old 2013-01-28, 15:09   Link #127
kakakka
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Suddenly the scene isn't that far-fetched now, is it? It's something that could literally happen tomorrow somewhere if the crowd didn't have somebody with extraordinary courage, initiative and feeling of responsibility in it.
I know by-stander effect is common, but the way the show (from what I remember) handled it really disturbed me. It said there was no sign of (even a bit) anxiety among the bystanders. Then the fact that all stopped and looked, and nothing of what I saw said anything of concern. No one walked away after stopping and taking a glance at the scene.

I guess some details are just missing...
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Old 2013-01-28, 17:17   Link #128
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
It's not a backup system, it's a whole system that the viewer can believe. Our group already deals daily with situations that cannot be perceived by Sybil. No scanners, scanner manipulating, immune to scanning etc. When they insist on failing just because they refuse cold hard facts, the show loses all its seriousness and I feel like I'm watching Demolition Man with No Sly and just Wesley Snipes as Makishima. They should go raid a museum or something and grab a Colt Peacemaker! That wouldn't do more damage to people's belief in the system than Makishima is doing on a daily basis already.
I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about everyday incidents that "cannot be perceived by Sybil" since Makishima is clearly presented as an unprecedented anomaly in the system. On the contrary, Makishima hasn't done much to shake the average person's faith in the system. He's simply using that very faith as a tool for him to do whatever he wants. The illusion that most go by only shatters once the assumption of personal security is disputed. Aside from that, they remain utterly desensitized of the affairs of other people as long as it doesn't threaten their safety. Sybil is an important component of the perceived safety.

The thing about using a real gun is that it's no different from giving up on the system, and very few people want to make that leap. Especially in a society where the majority grew up under the influence and guidance of Sybil, many can no longer imagine life without it.

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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
It's not abandoning at all. It's like acting as if he's out of coverage somehow. How does the police handle situations in remote places from big cities anyway? How do they solve a case when some guy murders people in the forest? Too many holes in the system that would be worked around by the government if this system could work in the first place.
To take matters into your own hands, while ignoring Sybil's judgment, is practically abandoning the system right there and then, regardless of how ostensibly stupid such a judgment might be. I've already noted the consequences of abandoning the system. Now you may understand how some people choose to stay on a sinking ship if the alternative is swimming in the ice-cold water below. This is somewhat similar.

I'm curious though, how would such remote incidents even serve as a gap in the system in the first place? All they have to do is point their Dominators at random people until they find someone with a high crime coefficient.
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Old 2013-01-28, 19:12   Link #129
Anh_Minh
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Good point. But really. Given current evidence, especially the irrational trust that most people seem to attribute to Sybil, I can't imagine that it could be anything but the former. It's a dystopia under the guise of a utopia.


On the contrary, it would indicate that they can reliably deal with such situations despite being unequipped. Given how nobody is aware of any similar incident in the past, I'm left to assume that it was dealt with silently and effectively, assuming such a thing even happened in the first place.
It means their information control is better than their police work. Otherwise, they wouldn't consider putting a team of ignorant bumblers on the case to be a reliable way to deal with the threat.


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I'll repeat what I said. It's no good to compare this with the governing systems that we are familiar with. This system is much closer to a form of subtle brainwashing than anything else, and this brainwashing is dependent on the assumption that the Psycho-Pass hues are absolute. The society from Orwell's 1984 is a good comparison in this case.

But is that a conscious decision that the people go through in the first place, or a prerogative implanted through socialization and indoctrination?

As you note, if that belief in the security that the system provides is proven to be a sham, the society would disintegrate and crumble due to the loss of trust in the social contract, and that remains to be the worst case scenario that everyone is trying to avoid. I don't see the problem with my reasoning here.


I'd agree with your ideas on governance if this was anything but an authoritarian state. The way things stand, the power of this authoritarian state hinges on the people's unwavering trust in it.
And here we are. We disagree on what's necessary because we disagree on what things are necessary for. What you're saying is, basically, "people must have absolute trust in Sibyl because otherwise, they won't trust it absolutely (and accept to live under a totalitarian regime)". It's circular. All you get out of it is a totalitarian society, as if that was the endgoal. And maybe it is, for the rulers.

What I'm saying is, it would be perfectly possible to base a society around Sibyl, and reap most or all of the benefits, without demanding such absolute trust you have to cripple your ability to deal with violent freaks.
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Old 2013-01-28, 19:22   Link #130
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It means their information control is better than their police work. Otherwise, they wouldn't consider putting a team of ignorant bumblers on the case to be a reliable way to deal with the threat.
Fair enough. Information control pretty much is the end goal the higher-ups have in mind in the first place. If the situation can somehow be dealt with without the public becoming aware of what happening, then it's a victory for them.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What I'm saying is, it would be perfectly possible to base a society around Sibyl, and reap most or all of the benefits, without demanding such absolute trust you have to cripple your ability to deal with violent freaks.
And what I'm saying is that it is much too late for such a transition given the current state of affairs. I'm not denying that it's possible for things to not have gone this far, but at this point, it's no longer a feasible option.
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:46   Link #131
Ultramarinus
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I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about everyday incidents that "cannot be perceived by Sybil" since Makishima is clearly presented as an unprecedented anomaly in the system. On the contrary, Makishima hasn't done much to shake the average person's faith in the system. He's simply using that very faith as a tool for him to do whatever he wants. The illusion that most go by only shatters once the assumption of personal security is disputed. Aside from that, they remain utterly desensitized of the affairs of other people as long as it doesn't threaten their safety. Sybil is an important component of the perceived safety.

The thing about using a real gun is that it's no different from giving up on the system, and very few people want to make that leap. Especially in a society where the majority grew up under the influence and guidance of Sybil, many can no longer imagine life without it.
We have witnessed many cases where the suspects just avoid the scanners and keep killing, pretty much whole show was about them until the anomalies. Many places don't have a scanner and you have like free pass as long as you know your way around the patchwork scanner coverage.

Makishima has already threw a wrench in the system and that trunkload of masks will be enough to topple the ministry if all they have is dominators in its defense. If we're to believe the OP, our guys will use firearms later on anyway. I guess it'll be a do or die situation before our guys come to their senses.

You can't save face if somebody is melting it.
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To take matters into your own hands, while ignoring Sybil's judgment, is practically abandoning the system right there and then, regardless of how ostensibly stupid such a judgment might be. I've already noted the consequences of abandoning the system. Now you may understand how some people choose to stay on a sinking ship if the alternative is swimming in the ice-cold water below. This is somewhat similar.

I'm curious though, how would such remote incidents even serve as a gap in the system in the first place? All they have to do is point their Dominators at random people until they find someone with a high crime coefficient.
Sybil has no judgment on the matter, the director woman clearly stated that the inspectors are there for a reason: Otherwise they'd hand dominators to drones and be done with it. They have to fill in the cracks in it. They won't admit the cracks to the public but they also won't let them be. Especially when the opponent is so dangerous.

Yeah well, you can't really do that. Just recall the incident in the factory. You can't really pull a dominator on everyone till you find the guy.
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:49   Link #132
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<snip>
I could never actually understand those...just a quick phone call to the police...If you are too worried about trouble and want to leave fine, just make an emergency call first then get out of there. How hard is it..
Nowadays, there's Caller ID. So when you make that phone call, they have your cell number and then they proceed to get the rest of your contact info. Being anonymous when making an emergency call is a thing of the past now. It also means you're on Sibyl's hit list now too.
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:55   Link #133
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I could never actually understand those...just a quick phone call to the police...If you are too worried about trouble and want to leave fine, just make an emergency call first then get out of there. How hard is it..
Basicly the more people there are the more people figure somebody else will do it.

Is there even a police emergency number in this future?
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Old 2013-01-29, 00:15   Link #134
monir
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Few months ago, I helped out a guy who was trying to push his pick-up truck after it died in the middle of the bridge. I was tired after a 12-hour shift, and I was going to be another motorist who was going to go around the guy and keep on moving. For some reason, I decided to pull up behind his truck, put my flasher on, and was going to help him push his truck to the nearest shoulder. When I approached him, he was panicking badly as the traffic behind him slowly started to pile up. Turns out he was running low on gas and thought he could make it to the gas station before he ran out. So I gave him a gallon worth of gas from my fuel-can I usually carry just in case. All in all, it took about 4-5 minutes worth of time, but I still felt pretty good about it as I was the only one who didn't go around his truck that day.

After watching this episode, I just had to ask myself if I saw something as gruesome as someone getting killed in the middle of the road with a hammer, would I have stopped to intervene in anyway? The answer is: no, I probably wouldn't have stopped. I would be fearful for my own safety. I would have called the police, but it still probably wouldn't be enough considering the person who is dying would benefit the most with an immediate intervention. The conundrum here is am I a bad person if my failure to take immediate action cost someone his/her life because I fear for my own safety? Regardless of whatever I decide to do, whether I'm driving away or stopping to help, I am making a choice. I would have made that choice after fully understanding the situation that was unfolding before my eyes.

Obviously the most disturbing thing about that murder was how everyone (except one guy) appeared not to understand what was taking place. It's like trying to distinguish accent and dialect shortly after being introduced to a new language. They didn't need to make any choice.

But then... I just had to wonder how could that be? The Sybil System isn't without problem. The very existence of the Enforcers is the proof. So then, why those witnesses didn't feel horror, fear, nauseous, and etc? When the male pharmacist was stabbed, the female didn't start panicking immediately. She was startled by the loud noise when the killer slammed the male on the table and then she started panicking once it set in something amiss here. All our emotions are primal and innate. Our survival instinct are honed based on those set of emotions. So what surprised me that how any of those people didn't appear to feel any kind of emotion. They can't be desensitized, or unable to feel those extreme emotions. There has been enough episodes to hammer the point in (no pun intended) that even under the system, people are still able to retain those primal and innate emotions we are born with even though the system is designed to actively suppress extreme set of emotions. Then why those people didn't react in any way? Was this just mere plot device to make a point against the Sybil System? If that's the case then it instantaneously makes this episode the weakest one of all thus far which went against the established order and understanding of the very nature of this world.

While we are all fascinated with Makishima and how his mental make up allows him to circumvent the very nature of the system, we probably aren't giving Akane her due credit. She is managing her Crime Coefficient and Psycho Pass in a rather interesting way too. Like most people, as the show pointed out several time thus far, Akane shouldn't have been able to manage her PP, and CC. In fact, they all feared her CC would be compromised when she agreed for that vivid reenactment/re-living of her memories. And yet, there she is, able to suppress all those extreme emotions as a result of her traumatic experience which lead Sybil System to render unfavorable verdict against anyone. Were all those people who witnessed that murder shared similar trait to Akane who knew how to control their emotions? I don't believe so. While I don't think Akane isn't unique in her mindset, her type of mental make-up still should be rare. Akane is the fruit of the intended design of this system, but I don't think the system has run its course long enough to turn more and more people like Akane. As far as we understand, Sybil System has been in place no longer than 2-4 decades. That's not enough time to turn up product like Akane in a frequent basis. So once again plot device comes to mind to explain this curious reaction of the crowd. But then the reaction of the victim herself when he took out the hammer suggested she was starting to grasp that she was in danger. So why those people didn't react to what was transpiring in front of them.

My own conclusion is that I should wait for more episodes before I can make up my mind. I also hope sincerely this wasn't just a cheap way to make a point against the system in a simple shock-and-awe fashion. There were few very hard to miss Tarantino movie like exaggeration in at least couple of the violence. I also find it hard to believe that if someone is dying in these streets for any non-violent reason those bots would just come to gauge that person's distress level. Surely there would be some kind of medical override to intervene to keep someone from dying? I also can't accept the ascribed explanation that these people didn't feel anything or react negatively because they are too used to peace. It was pointed out in the episode how the stress level in the surrounding vicinity immediately went up when the video of the killing surfaced, so I would rather like to think that even if murder was an alien concept for those people, they just wouldn't go home and wouldn't think about it later even for a second. Finally, I have to say that as I watched this episode, I immediately thought about the mass killing incident in Norway and couldn't help but wonder how that event will shape the people of that country in the coming years. Norway is probably one of the safest place to live in the planet as far as crime goes.

Btw, Makishima was reading something interesting, wasn't he?



Very much looking forward to how this series is going to shape up from here on.
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Old 2013-01-29, 01:29   Link #135
Ultramarinus
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In fact, the crowd was still reacting to the killing, that's how Kougami was able to figure out how the mask works. The copied person's coefficient was making spikes as the blows landed. Also there's the fact that whole area stress increased rapidly to warrant investigation.

As for Akane, she was getting to a good point as a character but then ep11 happened with its idiot ball ex machina. She was sacrificed by the author vs the character who had absolute plot armor at that point and was sacrificed so Makishima would look like a badass manipulator while she looked like a complete weakling. I doubt that the author would be able to recover her prestige even if he wanted this late in the story. Merely maintaining a carefree state isn't cool by itself, people won't cheer for it. They will cheer for the guy who bashes skulls in with baseball bats 1vs3 even if he eats babies alive after this point, as they're doing.
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Old 2013-01-29, 02:09   Link #136
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Makishima has already threw a wrench in the system and that trunkload of masks will be enough to topple the ministry if all they have is dominators in its defense. If we're to believe the OP, our guys will use firearms later on anyway. I guess it'll be a do or die situation before our guys come to their senses.
Well, yes. I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is that expecting them to react on a moment's notice is unreasonable. All sorts of interests are at stake here, as well as the fact that the use of actual firearms is unprecedented within the setting.

I'm fairly certain that our protagonists will resort to firearms eventually, but calling characters stupid for not doing so immediately seems a bit shortsighted in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Sybil has no judgment on the matter, the director woman clearly stated that the inspectors are there for a reason: Otherwise they'd hand dominators to drones and be done with it. They have to fill in the cracks in it. They won't admit the cracks to the public but they also won't let them be. Especially when the opponent is so dangerous.
Let me correct you there. Sybil does indeed have judgment on the matter, rather, Sybil is the only one allowed to judge on any matter. That is the meaning behind giving Enforcers the Dominators as weapons. Enforcers are only there to enforce Sybil's judgment. Sybil is the mind that judges and the Enforcers are the arms that punish. If we take that system in mind, abandoning Sybil's judgment is the same as rebellion against the system.

Yes, the system is growing obsolete thanks to Makishima's interference, but it is completely understandable that most would be reluctant to let go of the system so suddenly.
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Old 2013-01-29, 02:50   Link #137
Dengar
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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I'm not saying the current Sibyl system is "ideal". However, I don't see how it's "obviously flawed" when the only actual flaw that can be called an actual flaw happened two episodes ago, with no one knowing about it beforehand.

And I'm just getting annoyed by people blaming a lifeless objects for the actions of people.

Just because people are too retarded to think for themselves doesn't mean they don't have any responsibility. It's their own fault for being so retarded.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:41   Link #138
Cosmic Eagle
宿命に全てを奪われた少女
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 宿命と時間の巻きに
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
The thing is that there are so many people out there that's already deadened with no Sybil to talk of, so that examples like the ones I wrote above can happen. When there's such facts, I find it highly contradictory to see this many people on the Net that act like anyone could tackle a psychopath with a hammer and just shift all blame to a fictitious plot element.
A normal crowd doesn't show zero reaction, not even any physiological signs even if there is bystander effect. They may not move to aid or even call for aid but not even exhibiting any physical sign of reaction is not usual. That's what I meant by "deadened." It's far more extreme

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm not saying the current Sibyl system is "ideal". However, I don't see how it's "obviously flawed" when the only actual flaw that can be called an actual flaw happened two episodes ago, with no one knowing about it beforehand.
Do you consider executing people on the say so of a "lifeless object" as you say, a part of the system? Is Sibyl even a "lifeless object?" It would be nothing without the people that run and enable it. Ultimately humans are responsible for this system.

To change it would require such drastic changes to its use, the cymatic scan is just reduced to a mere tool, the way polygraphs are today

Quote:
After watching this episode, I just had to ask myself if I saw something as gruesome as someone getting killed in the middle of the road with a hammer, would I have stopped to intervene in anyway? The answer is: no, I probably wouldn't have stopped. I would be fearful for my own safety. I would have called the police, but it still probably wouldn't be enough considering the person who is dying would benefit the most with an immediate intervention. The conundrum here is am I a bad person if my failure to take immediate action cost someone his/her life because I fear for my own safety? Regardless of whatever I decide to do, whether I'm driving away or stopping to help, I am making a choice. I would have made that choice after fully understanding the situation that was unfolding before my eyes.
An entirely understandable response. Although honestly speaking if the attacker were busy stripping and bashing the victim while crouched on top unaware of the crowd like in that scene, one could conceivably charge up and get a good kick in to the neck. It's a more helpless situation if it were a guy standing and running around with a knife or something
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Old 2013-01-29, 11:03   Link #139
Cosmic Eagle
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Location: 宿命と時間の巻きに
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Nowadays, there's Caller ID. So when you make that phone call, they have your cell number and then they proceed to get the rest of your contact info. Being anonymous when making an emergency call is a thing of the past now. It also means you're on Sibyl's hit list now too.
I'm talking about real life....Yeah they will have your contact info, but it's emergency services. They sure as hell can get your contact info somehow if they want even without ID, so what's the problem?
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Old 2013-01-29, 12:40   Link #140
Ultramarinus
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Well, yes. I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is that expecting them to react on a moment's notice is unreasonable. All sorts of interests are at stake here, as well as the fact that the use of actual firearms is unprecedented within the setting.

I'm fairly certain that our protagonists will resort to firearms eventually, but calling characters stupid for not doing so immediately seems a bit shortsighted in my opinion.
They are warned, they not just only have the report of Akane but also the director's confirmation that it's not a bogey. It's like how Agent Scully tries to stubbornly refuse the obvious until an UFO hits her in the face. Heck, in this case there's no room for doubt left. Dominators don't work, time to resort to alternate methods.

If they really want to keep on with the dominators, they could ask for bypassing the minimum threshold to use stun gun mode. See masked guys or Makishima? Just stun them. Nobody sees them using firearms, everyone's cool.
Quote:
Let me correct you there. Sybil does indeed have judgment on the matter, rather, Sybil is the only one allowed to judge on any matter. That is the meaning behind giving Enforcers the Dominators as weapons. Enforcers are only there to enforce Sybil's judgment. Sybil is the mind that judges and the Enforcers are the arms that punish. If we take that system in mind, abandoning Sybil's judgment is the same as rebellion against the system.

Yes, the system is growing obsolete thanks to Makishima's interference, but it is completely understandable that most would be reluctant to let go of the system so suddenly.
Sybil is merely a measuring tool. How you subdue a suspect is up to you. If the target warrants an execution, they can go Judge Dredd on it, but it's still up to them to decide. Not Sybil. Enter ep1, Akane intervenes and the woman's saved. She would normally die. Yet Akane isn't fired or even punished. Which should have been the case if it was open rebellion as you claimed it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
A normal crowd doesn't show zero reaction, not even any physiological signs even if there is bystander effect. They may not move to aid or even call for aid but not even exhibiting any physical sign of reaction is not usual. That's what I meant by "deadened." It's far more extreme
I think that was more of due to animation budget restrictions than an intended effect.
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