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Old 2012-12-10, 21:48   Link #21
GDB
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I haven't seen anything to indicate Haru's punches and kicks are anything more than mere punches and kicks. The same kind you can simulate from watching a movie, fighting game, or anime.

Taku's fight against Noumi definitely showed the difference that true skill makes. Remember, Kuroyukihime even mentioned that physical fitness in the real world makes you stronger and faster in the Accelerated world. It only stands to reason that skill and muscle memory would further that.
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Old 2012-12-10, 23:11   Link #22
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I haven't seen anything to indicate Haru's punches and kicks are anything more than mere punches and kicks. The same kind you can simulate from watching a movie, fighting game, or anime.
Silver Crow is a lot taller, thinner and more flexible than Haru is. It's a completely different body that he has no experience controlling.

Further, there's no way that Haru could execute a jumping heel-kick, or a spinning roundhouse. Again, it would take more leg-strength and flexibility than he possesses in real life, let alone skill.

The game is obviously making up for his deficiencies in unarmed combat by allowing him to execute various punches and kicks even when he doesn't understand -- on a muscle-memory level -- HOW to do them.


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Taku's fight against Noumi definitely showed the difference that true skill makes.
Dusk Taker doesn't have a sword. He could fake having one with his unnamed Incarnate Skill, but his avatar didn't have "thrust, stab, parry" or whatever the Punch/Kick equivalents would be.

Cyan Pile doesn't have a sword either; his Cyan Blade is also produced by cheating the system. However, his avatar was MEANT to use a close-combat weapon, AND he already had kendo skills before becoming a Burst Linker.

So, Dusk Taker would not have had the training wheels, and Cyan Pile didn't need to have them.


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Remember, Kuroyukihime even mentioned that physical fitness in the real world makes you stronger and faster in the Accelerated world. It only stands to reason that skill and muscle memory would further that.
Not "stronger", no. I doubt that Brain Burst increases your avatar's strength in regards to your real muscle strength.

But I agree with the rest.
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Old 2012-12-10, 23:57   Link #23
judasmartel
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Since time in Accel World runs 1000x faster than in real life, so that 1 second in AW = 16m 40s in real life, one can simply enter the UNF at a high enough level and then train himself in physical combat there, for as long as he wants to.

That said, this feature can become very useful for Haru to train physically (so that when he comes back in Real Life, he's now a fat guy endowed with the reflexes of a karate master) or for Taku to become a weapons master (spear and sword) in Real Life (given that he doesn't use BB to cheat in Kendo tournaments anymore).

We should really take this discussion further in something like a "Duel Avatar Abilities and Techniques thread".
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Old 2012-12-11, 07:40   Link #24
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Since time in Accel World runs 1000x faster than in real life, so that 1 second in AW = 16m 40s in real life, one can simply enter the UNF at a high enough level and then train himself in physical combat there, for as long as he wants to.

That said, this feature can become very useful for Haru to train physically (so that when he comes back in Real Life, he's now a fat guy endowed with the reflexes of a karate master) or for Taku to become a weapons master (spear and sword) in Real Life (given that he doesn't use BB to cheat in Kendo tournaments anymore).
The UNF can be used to gain lots of combat experience, but becoming a master is different from becoming a veteran.

A master is someone who has either scientifically studied how to turn a form of combat into an efficient art, or someone who has studied the teachings of such a master. It's easier to stand on the shoulders of giants.

There's also the problem that, even if one can create new muscle-memories in the Accelerated World, those memories might have been created for a completely different body-type (as with Silver Crow and Haruyuki), and the physical body hasn't become any more fit or flexible than it was before.

After 10 virtual years of Brain Bursting, Haru might become a little more likely to pull of a spinning roundhouse kick in real life, but he's still liable to pull up short on overtight tendons, misjudge the height and angle of his kick, and fall on his butt because of a radically different center of gravity.


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We should really take this discussion further in something like a "Duel Avatar Abilities and Techniques thread".
Maybe such a thread could be used to speculate on the kinds of abilities a Level 1 starting Purple or Yellow avatar might be generated with.

Or which abilities ought to spend SP without actually being Special Moves, like Silver Crow's wings and Ash Roller's Wall Ride.
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Old 2012-12-11, 20:23   Link #25
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Getting back to Taku, I really don't understand why he was on the outs with the Blue Legion, even before they discovered he was using an illegal cheating program.

For the most part, the characters make it sound like he was exiled because he was low on points, but that makes no sense. It's like ostracizing someone when they're weak or injured, or out of money.

They COULD have been disgusted that he was using Acceleration to cheat at kendo; perhaps the Leonids abhor such a thing. However, they could only know Taku was doing that if they knew Taku was Cyan Pile, and Taku never mentions any idea that lots of powerful enemies know his real identity -- which would be a dangerous liability when he transfered to Haru's school and started hanging out IRL with the Black Legion.

Maybe instead all that they knew was that Cyan Pile was getting greedy for Burst Points. The public status information (or at least the status available during one of your matches) tells people EXACTLY how many BP you have left, so his legion could quickly figure out that he was always running low on points, and therefore spending a lot of them.

Maybe he was bullying weaker players, or begging for thrown fights, or begging for others to help him hunt Enemies for points?

Or maybe someone confronted him about his excessive spending and he blurted out the truth regarding his kendo cheating?
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Old 2012-12-12, 03:19   Link #26
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If the Blue Knight knew all about Pile's activities, I'm not really sure why he spared him for defecting to NN, despite being perfectly capable of doing so (via Judgment Blow).

Maybe Knight just wants to know how Pile can play the game more or less honestly?
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Old 2012-12-12, 03:31   Link #27
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They absolutely did it because he was low on points.

He was initially thought to be a promising Duel Avatar, and yet at the time he was experiencing a shortage of points.

They weren't planning to use Judgement Blow on him for being low on points, but it lowered their image of him.
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Old 2012-12-12, 04:20   Link #28
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Maybe Blue Knight simply prefers Pile to earn more BP so that when the time comes that NN has to fight him, he would wipe out all those BP himself.
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Old 2012-12-12, 23:08   Link #29
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Shelving Blue Knight's reasons for sparing Cyan Pile's virtual life, what about the reasons why Cyan Pile was considered "promising"?

I get this sense that most of the Blue Legion actually have Blue avatars and are kendoka in real life. Since kendoka would tend to produce Blue avatars, and since they would also tend to recruit other kendoka in their Legion's area. Taku's own "parent" was his kendo captain, likely at a school in Leonid territory.

Cobalt Blade and Manganese Blade, the twin sisters who serve Blue Knight, are actually Metal colors. They just happen to be bluish metals, just as copper is reddish and gold is yellowish. But they're avatars also wield swords and bear samurai-esque armor, which hints at practicing kendo.

No doubt, Burst Linkers of other colors could exist in Leonid territory, and might even be part of the Legion. But Blue colors would be more respected, and invited to serve as Vanquish's honorguard.

Even if we think that he should have been a bit on the purplish side, Cyan Pile is a color very near to pure Blue, which automatically gets the Legion's attention.

The other side of "promising" would be having talent. The Accelerated World does a lot to equalize players by eliminating many physical advantages, but most mental advantages still remain.

Actual skill with kendo, tactical and strategic intelligence, a competitive edge and ambition, an agreeable and reasonably obedient attitude...


But for some reason, Takumu was either burning through Burst Points faster than other Blue Legionaires, or wasn't able to acquire points fast enough to offset the expenses. That is to say, either Takumu was using Acceleration more than his compatriots, or he was less successful at winning fights and group-hunting Enemies.

Being low on BP because of a really bad losing streak would make sense as a reason why he lost the respect of the Blue Legion. He can't be a very good honorguard if he's a poor fighter who can't seem to make up for his shortcomings.

But Taku doesn't imply anything like that happened, and aside from one fight where he was psychologically at his worst (against Haruyuki), he's fought well and smart, giving as good or better than he gets. I also think he phrases the problem as "spending a few too many points".

So it goes right back to this idea that no one else in the highest ranks of the Leonids were burning through points as fast. Maybe they generally, as a group, don't rely on Acceleration for sports and tests?

Except the highest ranking avatars are probably Level 6 or so, and the stronger one becomes, the easier it becomes to farm enemies for BP. Even if you can't do it alone, other players are probably more eager to accept a higher level player's invitation to go hunting. So maybe Taku's superiors were being biased?
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Old 2012-12-13, 10:17   Link #30
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But for some reason, Takumu was either burning through Burst Points faster than other Blue Legionaires, or wasn't able to acquire points fast enough to offset the expenses.
For some reason? We know the reason. He cheated at kendo using physical burst. That's 5 points a pop. Assuming each match is best of 3, that's 15 points per match. He'd use it during daily practice, and during tournaments. Assuming 8 rounds or more in a tournament, that'd be at least 120 points right off the bat. He was addicted to using it and couldn't stop.

I have a feeling that other legionnaires didn't abuse physical burst like he did.
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Old 2012-12-14, 12:35   Link #31
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I agree with the majority of your point, but I doubt he would bother to use Physical Burst during daily practice. Maybe a couple of times, to get used to the opportunites afforded by Physical Burst, but not daily.

If Taku was truly addicted to Brain Burst's power that he was using it just to show off, like Noumi did, then he couldn't simply stop doing that after starting over again with Haruyuki. The problem would run too deep.

Chiyuri provided the answer when she pointed out that Taku's reasons for using Acceleration were different from Noumi's. Noumi did it to feel superior to everyone around him, but Taku used it because his victories made Chiyuri happy.

This helped justify, at least in Taku's mind, why he put the backdoor program in Chiyu's linker. Since he was using Brain Burst so much for her sake, and it was putting him in a desperate situation, it was only fair that she help him out, even unwittingly.

It also explains why Taku could so easily stop abusing Brain Burst. Once Chiyu knew about it, she wouldn't be happy anymore if he kept using it to cheat. She would instead be happier to know that he was giving his best while playing fair.

Takumu didn't need Brain Burst to feel better about himself anymore, since he had finally mended his relationships with his best friends.
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Old 2012-12-14, 12:45   Link #32
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I think he'd have to use it daily if he wanted to truly have people believe he was the best. Be quite odd to be just good enough to get into the tournaments, and then completely obliterate everyone.

His reasons may have been different than Noumi's, but it doesn't mean he was abusing it any less.
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Old 2012-12-14, 13:34   Link #33
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I think he'd have to use it daily if he wanted to truly have people believe he was the best. Be quite odd to be just good enough to get into the tournaments, and then completely obliterate everyone.

His reasons may have been different than Noumi's, but it doesn't mean he was abusing it any less.
I doubt Takumu would have smarted off to people so much that they would throw a shinnai at his head, or that he would have used Physical Burst (or Burst Link) just to catch that shinai without having to physically look at it.

Noumi wanted to make everyone around him feel inferior to him. Takumu was not so bad.

Even when Taku was haboring a grudge against Haru, Taku never bullied him for it, in word or deed. Rather than try to make Haru feel inferior, Takumu just tried to make himself look superior.
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Old 2012-12-14, 23:14   Link #34
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Huh.

In episode 7, Black Lotus says that she asked an envoy of the Blue Legion (Leonids) about Cyan Pile, and they were able to tell her that Takumu dropped out of a kendo tournament.

Unless there's some mistranslation or misunderstanding here, that would mean the Blue Legion, or at least its leaders, know exactly who he is.

Why the hell would Black Lotus continue associating with him, when hanging out with her could give away her real identity? And Haru's.
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Old 2013-01-14, 08:57   Link #35
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I can only guess KYH decided to forgive him. Remember they duelled while KYH was still in hospital? KYH got him to refocus his energy into something more productive than gicing up on himself, and earned his respect for her too. Taku wouldn't betray KYH afetr that...I believe
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Old 2013-01-14, 09:46   Link #36
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I can only guess KYH decided to forgive him.
Forgiving a plague victim doesn't make them any less contagious.

If the Leonids KNOW who Takumu is, they only need to watch who he hangs out with.

KYH wasn't very discrete with her Swallowtail Butterfly dummy avatar when she made her return appearance. None of the observing Burst Linkers went to their school, so none would have seen the avatar in her school's network, but anyone who investigates their school and asks questions about the peopel Takumu hangs out with will eventually learn of the Swallowtail Butterfly.

There's also the fact that she looks black and everyone calls her Black. Poor evidence, yes, but hasty decisions have been made on such, and in this case it's true.


Oh, and she started dating this short, fat, unpopular, younger guy on the very same day that Silver Crow made his first appearance.
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:56   Link #37
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Supposing there was a method by which a Burst Linker could pay Burst Points to re-spec their avatar... that is, void out all the choices they made for their level up bonuses and pick new ones...

What do you think Taku ought to do with Cyan Pile?

Given that Cyan Pile is level 5, Taku has chosen four bonuses. The obvious ones are the Splash Stinger normal move and the Spiral Gravity Driver special move. He might have put other bonuses into upgrading Cyan Lightning Spike or his basic extending jab attack, or perhaps his armor.


The extending jab and the Splash Stinger are both solid, dependable, useful moves. While slightly redundant in that both are (somewhat) long-range attacks, they are otherwise different enough to have specialized uses.

What Cyan Pile could use is some method of fighting an opponent who gets inside his range; lacking that ability is rather sad for a Blue avatar.

Cyan Lightning Spike is underwhelming. (Which makes perfect sense for a ranged attack coming from a Blue avatar). It's over-extending and over-penetrating. Since it's likely his starting Special Attack, he can't get rid of it, so he needs to invest some bonuses into making it suck less. Perhaps include barbs or anchors that grab an opponent and carry them along with the spike rather than just leaving them in place when it pierces through them. Speeding up the recovery time would also help, since he's vulnerable while the spike is extended so far out.


The Spiral Gravity Driver is useless. There's really no reason why it ought to be weaker (or at least no stronger) than his basic extending attack. Takumu should get rid of it and use the bonus to buy himself a sword.

Not only will this let him better fight at close-range, it also allows him to more easily employ his Incarnate Skills. By applying Cyan Blade to the sword, he doesn't lose access to the Pile Driver's extending jab or Cyan Lightning Spike attacks.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:34   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Supposing there was a method by which a Burst Linker could pay Burst Points to re-spec their avatar... that is, void out all the choices they made for their level up bonuses and pick new ones...

What do you think Taku ought to do with Cyan Pile?

Cyan Lightning Spike is underwhelming. (Which makes perfect sense for a ranged attack coming from a Blue avatar). It's over-extending and over-penetrating. Since it's likely his starting Special Attack, he can't get rid of it, so he needs to invest some bonuses into making it suck less. Perhaps include barbs or anchors that grab an opponent and carry them along with the spike rather than just leaving them in place when it pierces through them. Speeding up the recovery time would also help, since he's vulnerable while the spike is extended so far out.


The Spiral Gravity Driver is useless. There's really no reason why it ought to be weaker (or at least no stronger) than his basic extending attack. Takumu should get rid of it and use the bonus to buy himself a sword.

Not only will this let him better fight at close-range, it also allows him to more easily employ his Incarnate Skills. By applying Cyan Blade to the sword, he doesn't lose access to the Pile Driver's extending jab or Cyan Lightning Spike attacks.
I disagree with the comment on LCS.

Typically, you don't expect a pile driver, of all things, to be a long-range weapon. Heck, when I first saw LCS my jaw hit the floor with dat range.

The pile driver itself does seem to be a close-range to ranged weapon, he's not shown to have used LCS in the territorial battle at all, IIRC.

However, imagine Scarlet Rain just summoned her fortress. From a hundred miles away, Taku can just aim, drop anchors, and let flyyy~

It would be the last thing an opponent who has never seen Cyan Pile before expects.

Spiral Gravity Driver is just less useful, IMO. Unless it's because SC was a level one when he got hit, SGD put him down to 5% HP in a single hit. But it's ridiculous aiming lasers and crest casting, it's basically begging for an interruption. I'll concede that.

I'll just leave Splash Stinger alone, I like it and it's useful when Pile is pinned.

So overall, if Taku had the second chance, I say he pour his upgrades into increasing the range of the normal move Cyan Spike and the range of LCS. It's a risk, but over-penetration at long-range is less of an issue. Unless you're like Nickel Doll, just grab that spike and start conducting, I'm leaning towards the 'more range for spikes' side.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:11   Link #39
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Tus, have you read my posts on the first page of this thread, in which I talk about the weaknesses of Cyan Pile's two special attacks?

I mean, I could state my points again, but why? I already made them in posts #7 and #8.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...02#post4466502
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...92#post4468392


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Typically, you don't expect a pile driver, of all things, to be a long-range weapon.

It would be the last thing an opponent who has never seen Cyan Pile before expects.
Reliance on surprise is fine for a weapon of mass destruction, but rather terrible for a personal weapon.

No one expected Silver Crow to fly, but pretty soon people were coming up with counters to his aviation ability and his winning streak was over.


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Heck, when I first saw LCS my jaw hit the floor with dat range.
Really? I glossed right over it; obviously the spike had to extend that far, or there'd be no point in shooting at Crow. Besides, Crow's flight and diving attack were stealing the show.

Besides, I've already talked about how the range on the Cyan Lightning Spike is not enough on its own to make the attack worthwhile, and how that actually makes its extreme range a dangerous risk.

Further, Takumu's aim can't be all that great at his maximum range, which imposes a maximum effective range -- the reach at which he can reliably HIT a target.


Quote:
The pile driver itself does seem to be a close-range to ranged weapon, he's not shown to have used LCS in the territorial battle at all, IIRC.
The show didn't afford enough budget to Taku and Haru's one team battle (against Powder Bear and Amber Penguin), or in the territorial battle where Taku fought Powder Bear.

In the first Amber Penguin -- a long-ranged avatar! -- charges at Pile with his bare hands. This is absurd.

Equally absurd is that Cyan Pile doesn't skewer him with his Pile Driver, but instead lets him get close enough to strike and dodges. Hell, even without using the Driver's range, Taku could have punched or clubbed with the weapon.

In the territorial battle, Pile is locked in a grapple with Powder Bear, despite the fact that both of them are built with extending strike weapons (Bear has piston-fists) and that Cyan Pile has a chest-mounted weapon for when his arms are occupied like that.


Quote:
However, imagine Scarlet Rain just summoned her fortress. From a hundred miles away, Taku can just aim, drop anchors, and let flyyy~
Bad example from the start, considering their level difference.

Also considering that Taku needs at least 40% Special Meter to use CLS, whereas Niko doesn't need any.

The Immobile Fortress can also fire more than one weapon, at longer range. And since they are projectiles, they're fire-and-forget. The CLS, on the other hand, leaves Cyan Pile anchored to the ground and defenseless until his spike retracts.

He also can't fire off another shot until it returns, whereas Rain can just spam volley after volley.

(Granted, maybe the CLS already includes a conveniently-instant retraction feature. It already ignores physics, given the length of the pile is longer than the driver could contain.)


Quote:
Spiral Gravity Driver is just less useful, IMO. Unless it's because SC was a level one when he got hit, SGD put him down to 5% HP in a single hit. But it's ridiculous aiming lasers and crest casting, it's basically begging for an interruption. I'll concede that.
I also pointed out more problems than those in the seventh post.

All together, SGD has so many demands that it ought to be an Instant Death attack. But it inflicts LESS damage than the basic attack which costs no Special Meter at all, so it's useless.

Seriously, if Taku had just used the regular pile driver, he could have stabbed Crow to death right there with a shot to the head or heart. Even two or three stabs would have been faster and more painful than SGD.

I mean, if the pile took off so much health from a glancing blow on a mobile target at range (and despite Silver's resistance to piercing), a few point-blank shots to the vitals would have instantly won the fight.


Quote:
So overall, if Taku had the second chance, I say he pour his upgrades into increasing the range of the normal move Cyan Spike and the range of LCS. It's a risk, but over-penetration at long-range is less of an issue.
I'd say he ought to upgrade the spike into a drill, or perhaps include serrated edges or barbs down the spike's length.

After the tip penetrates, the attack can't really do anymore damage, no matter how much farther the spike reaches past them.

(Unless someone else happens to be standing behind them -- and lining up a shot like that is really difficult at long range if you can't cover a LOT of ground to circle around distant targets.)

To make the most of the CLS's reach, the length of the pole should be bladed. Thus, the more length that penetrates someone, the more it rips them up internally.

Of course, that would also steal the momentum in a hurry, so it becomes an alternative mode: If there's just one target, bladed pole. If there's another target directly behind them but too far out, standard smooth pole.


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Unless you're like Nickel Doll, just grab that spike and start conducting
The risk of that depends on how quickly the spike can retract. Upgrading the retraction speed is a good idea, because it reduces the vulnerability period (including the grounding leg-anchors) and also makes it possible to fire another shot more quickly.

With a full Special Meter, Cyan Pile could potentially use Cyan Lightning Strike three times. The reward for inflicting damage with the first two shots could give him enough energy for a third.

While one CLS is unimpressive as a special attack, I would consider a TRIPLE Cyan Lightning Spike assault to be pants-wettingly terrifying.

Of course, IF the CLS already has impressive retraction speed, then it may already be capable of such a triplicate assault.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:32   Link #40
Tusjecht
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Okay I concede.

And the last part, TRIPLE LCS...hell, that's a Pillar Of Autumn in your hands. Kudos for bringing that up.

[I'm off for work now, any chance you can follow up on the Fanfiction thread? Thanks!]
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