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Old 2013-01-29, 08:07   Link #81
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
I'm not about the nostalgia, hyl. I'm talking about the movies themselves, and nowhere did I suggest that Ponyo is lacking just because it's new.

And as I'm sure you understand, a necro was inevitable. Either I post here and necro, or I make a new thread (the smart thing to do) and a mod moves the thread here, so the thread gets necroed anyway and you blame me for necroing anyway. Only diff is that the latter way ends up with me getting an infraction.

Which should I choose?
So what, you are making the generalization that the whole Ghibli studio is going worse with your sole example of ponyo? Not that Ponyo was my favorite Ghibli movie, but it was far from bad.

I'd rather save that comment untill I have seen his next movie that will be coming out in a few months
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Old 2013-01-29, 08:12   Link #82
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
So what, you are making the generalization that the whole Ghibli studio is going worse with your sole example of ponyo? Not that Ponyo was my favorite Ghibli movie, but it was far from bad.

I'd rather save that comment untill I have seen his next movie that will be coming out in a few months
I also said Howls, so not a sole example.
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Old 2013-01-29, 08:15   Link #83
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
I also said Howls, so not a sole example.
you mean this example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
I noticed this problem also with Howls Moving Castle, but not as bad as Ponyo. Too much scenes full of great visual but devoid of any substance.
IMO that woud be your opinion on this matter that the story of Ponyo is lacking (i liked the subtleness of the story though) but to say that you also used Howl's moving castle as a great example is rather falso as it's even worse than simply rehashing your opinion about Ponyo with just 1 sentence

edit: while we are at it, why did you make such an assumption that studio Ghibli has gone worse with examples of 2 of their not even most recent movies?

Last edited by hyl; 2013-01-29 at 08:33.
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Old 2013-01-29, 09:03   Link #84
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
you mean this example?


IMO that woud be your opinion on this matter that the story of Ponyo is lacking (i liked the subtleness of the story though) but to say that you also used Howl's moving castle as a great example is rather falso as it's even worse than simply rehashing your opinion about Ponyo with just 1 sentence

edit: while we are at it, why did you make such an assumption that studio Ghibli has gone worse with examples of 2 of their not even most recent movies?
"Falso"? What is this, a graded class debate?

Man, if you don't like my opinion, then chill and ignore. Or point out what you don't like, but don't turn it into some game you have to win.

And I didn't mean that I hate Ghibli, I love them. I just didn't like some of their movies as much as others.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:03   Link #85
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Personal opinion I do think Studio Ghibli has gone downhill a bit, but my personal opinion has nothing to do with the success of the company & I would still say Ghibli is very successful and recognized in Japan.

And worldwide Ghibli is also more recognized than other anime to a wide public (as in not just kids or anime fans).

As for Ghibli vs Kyoani besides K-On! I don't recall any Kyoani titles appealing to outside the typical Otaku demographic. I know a lot of us don't like to be called Otaku (I don't identify with that term either) but most of us are familiar with anime in ways even the general public of Japan is not, so keep that in mind.

I do agree that Studio Ghibli will have an issue in the future after Miyazaki & Takahata passes on. Yes there are other people who work on films there but no one has truly taken their place. Perhaps that will only happen when Miyazaki & Takahata truly do stop making movies and the studio can step away from their shadows.
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Old 2013-01-29, 10:28   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
As for Ghibli vs Kyoani besides K-On! I don't recall any Kyoani titles appealing to outside the typical Otaku demographic.
The only one I know is K-ON (going outside the otaku demographic and went for girls).
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Old 2013-01-29, 14:22   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post

As for Ghibli vs Kyoani besides K-On! I don't recall any Kyoani titles appealing to outside the typical Otaku demographic.
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
The only one I know is K-ON (going outside the otaku demographic and went for girls).

Hm? K-ON was one of KyoAni's downright worst offenders in appealing to otaku. That anime was not targeted to girls; it was targeted to cute moe and slice of life fans, of whom most of which were males.

If it was a girls' anime, there would be a lot more male characters with names. Not to mention the original manga ran in a seinen (young adult male) magazine.
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Old 2013-01-29, 14:50   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Hm? K-ON was one of KyoAni's downright worst offenders in appealing to otaku. That anime was not targeted to girls; it was targeted to cute moe and slice of life fans, of whom most of which were males.

If it was a girls' anime, there would be a lot more male characters with names. Not to mention the original manga ran in a seinen (young adult male) magazine.
We are not saying it was originally targeted at girls. We realize K-ON was originally targeted at male otaku. But no matter what you think of the show, the series did do well outside its target demographic and had a big teenage girl audience. This is a fact

Quote:
Q (11.15) – We can often develop very counter-intuitive assumptions about who is actually watching the show in Japan – who is the audience in Japan?

A (12.42 Yoshihisa) – For the timeslot that K-ON screens at for normal core audience is age 20-35 females. But we with K-ON were aiming for a broader audience so younger people – teenagers, and also 20-35 female viewers, and I think we succeeded in making it appeal to a wider audience than just the people that usually watch that timeslot.
For the record the series was also shown on the Disney channel in Japan, again showing that it definitely reached outside its target demographic.


I have never seen K-ON so I am definitely not a fan. Not trying to make out the series is something it's not.
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Old 2013-01-29, 15:19   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
We are not saying it was originally targeted at girls. We realize K-ON was originally targeted at male otaku. But no matter what you think of the show, the series did do well outside its target demographic and had a big teenage girl audience. This is a fact



For the record the series was also shown on the Disney channel in Japan, again showing that it definitely reached outside its target demographic.


I have never seen K-ON so I am definitely not a fan. Not trying to make out the series is something it's not.
bhl said that Keion was made to reach past otaku and aimed for girls, which was not right...

Anyway, my point was who it was trying to target. Of course there will be surprising audiences, and what you say is true. It doesn't mean that Keion is not a male otaku targeted show, however, and that's who KyoAni intended to, and succeed at, grabbing.

And I actually liked the show, I just got bored of watching after Season 1 since nothing interesting to me happened except a couple of expected plot points in S2.

But yeah I see what you're saying.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:14   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think Ghibli has two core problems:

1) Miyazaki is Ghibli. Ghibli is Miyazaki. It's kind of like Apple and Steve Jobs (and look how Apple is now struggling with Jobs passed on). This is fine, even good, as long as "the big guy" is alive and contributing as well as he ever did. But at some point, you need to find someone who can effectively carry on your legacy, and unfortunately, Miyazaki doesn't appear to have been able to.
I think that Miyazaki himself is part of the problem - his recent projects just haven't been as interesting as his older ones. Other than the upcoming "The Wind is Rising" (which I know almost nothing about), I don't even have any wish to check out any Ghibli movie made in the last decade. Never mind whether those works can compare with the older ones, they haven't even been evoking any curiosity, and that's despite me having a number of Ghibli films among my favorite movies.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
2) With 1) in mind, Ghibli is too segregated from the rest of the anime industry for its own good. Don't get me wrong - I'm not making this criticism from any sort of ideological perspective, but moreso from a simple practical one. Ghibli probably has a hard time finding fresh talent because it cuts itself off from much of the talent out there that's interested in the world of anime. I can certainly understand and respect Ghibli wanting to "stay classy", high-brow, and family-friendly, because those have become some of the core defining strengths of Ghibli and its brand. But as KyoAni has shown, you can do that without totally rejecting the rest of the anime world.
This seems to me to be a non-issue. Hosoda distances himself almost as much from the otaku anime industry (so to speak), and his films have been pretty good. "Wolf Children" looks to be a very entertaining film, for example. It's not as if either company is adverse to working with creative staff (animators, directors, etc.) who work on otaku anime, which is really what matters.

In any case, Hosoda and Studio Chizu seems to be a much better point of comparison than Kyoto Animation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I do agree that Studio Ghibli will have an issue in the future after Miyazaki & Takahata passes on. Yes there are other people who work on films there but no one has truly taken their place. Perhaps that will only happen when Miyazaki & Takahata truly do stop making movies and the studio can step away from their shadows.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:47   Link #91
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I think that Ghibli will still do well when Miyazaki and Takahata pass or retire. They might stumble at first, but I think they would catch their footing again eventually afterwards.
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:13   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
I think that Ghibli will still do well when Miyazaki and Takahata pass or retire. They might stumble at first, but I think they would catch their footing again eventually afterwards.
I hope so too. I just pray they wouldn't be too influence by the craziness going on in the anime industry. IMHO, I think they should at least keep their "safe and enjoyable" image for the general public... and not solely to create a fandom...
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:17   Link #93
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I hope so too. I just pray they wouldn't be too influence by the craziness going on in the anime industry. IMHO, I think they should at least keep their "safe and enjoyable" image for the general public... and not solely to create a fandom...
No, no fear of that happening. Ghibli is in it for the art, not for the money, so they won't be reduced to pandering to what anime fans with a lot of pocket money want anytime soon.

Even if Ghibli ran out of money I would bet they could just ask for "donations", and get enough to make a whole another movie, if not more. They have the power and influence to do whatever they want
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:22   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
No, no fear of that happening. Ghibli is in it for the art, not for the money, so they won't be reduced to pandering to what anime fans with a lot of pocket money want anytime soon.
I meant the plot.. the fetish and the desires of the fandom... more indecencies,,,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Even if Ghibli ran out of money I would bet they could just ask for "donations", and get enough to make a whole another movie, if not more. They have the power and influence to do whatever they want
True. Ghibli is like legend in the anime industry. A Pillar.
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:47   Link #95
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Yea, that's what I meant. The studios that do that stuff all the time are just going the beaten path and doing what they know will sell high to fans right now. Ghibli can be a lot more classy and not rely on panty shots and harems (guilty pleasures ) to make a lot of money.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:09   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
bhl said that Keion was made to reach past otaku and aimed for girls, which was not right...

Anyway, my point was who it was trying to target. Of course there will be surprising audiences, and what you say is true. It doesn't mean that Keion is not a male otaku targeted show, however, and that's who KyoAni intended to, and succeed at, grabbing.

And I actually liked the show, I just got bored of watching after Season 1 since nothing interesting to me happened except a couple of expected plot points in S2.

But yeah I see what you're saying.
Actually I never said it targetted girls, it just went past its demographic of mainly-male to teenage girls.

EDIT: Nvm... It seems the normal target was girls to begin with

Anyway he said something about the movie of the production of the Mitsubishi A6M Zero.
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Old 2013-01-29, 21:48   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) Miyazaki is Ghibli. Ghibli is Miyazaki. It's kind of like Apple and Steve Jobs (and look how Apple is now struggling with Jobs passed on). This is fine, even good, as long as "the big guy" is alive and contributing as well as he ever did. But at some point, you need to find someone who can effectively carry on your legacy, and unfortunately, Miyazaki doesn't appear to have been able to.
I'd like to bring up this Hosoda interview from 2007 that talks about this,in particular this was his response when asked what exactly happened during his time at Ghibli and why he ended up leaving.

Quote:
You know,I can't answer this question because I've been asked not to...However what you need to know is that with studios such as Madhouse and Ghibli,or other studios like Toei for example, is that it's often one person that's the backbone of the group, it's around that person that everything turns around.If that person has a particicular way of doing things what often happens is that you can't get along with that person because it doesn't match with the way you work. For exemple what someone can do at Madhouse isn't always doable at Ghibli because it doesn't fit the way they work.I've been told that the reason I wasn't able to direct Howl's Moving Castle was that I was afraid of the money involved,of the pressure and that sort of thing....I don't believe that's the case.I honestly believe very deeply that those aren't the reasons.Everyone in the anime industry has their own way of working that comes from how one views animating and directing.It's true that sometimes in Japan one studio equals one man.
In an interview this year Hosoda stated he still hasn't watched Howl's Moving Castle.
Of course what I find sort of ironic is that Hosoda is not shy about saying his new studio Chizu was created just to make his own movies,it'll be interesting to see if he's willing to welcome in other directors later in his career.


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Sad to say, but I doubt Ghibli will ever regain its past glories. Though I'd love to be surprised here
If there's a chance it's this year since the old guard will be back,Miyazaki will be back with his first movie in 5 years and Takahata with his first in 14 years.

It's the latter that I'm really looking forward to,Takahata hasn't failed me yet and he's been working on this for 5 years at least,highly looking forward to it.
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Old 2013-01-29, 21:56   Link #98
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I'm starting to get annoyed at this hidden assumption that otaku = bad.

This is a discussion about Studio Ghibli. Keep it at that, okay? Stop bashing K-On. We don't need to know about anyone's most original opinion that K-On is moetrash or pandering or whatever.

And this is my being polite. Or else I'll start abusing the lack of rep repercussions to have some fun.

Anyway,
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan
I don't watch Disney anymore, other than family.. I find it more of childish....

I agree. People have different opinions.
Genji-san, I think I need to be more clear.

I'm sure you know the concept of "family-friendly entertainment." But just a recap, it means the kind of entertainment that is targeted primarily at kids, meaning it is more or less innocuous, but capable of being enjoyed by "the whole family," parents of the kids, older children, teenagers if they aren't in the "too cool for X" phase, and so on. In short, the general public. The term "family-friendly" entertainment indicates that it's a work that can appeal to just about everyone in a society, the largest common ground.

In the United States, Disney's movies have this status. Everyone -- children, parents of children, adults, the President -- all know about them, hear about them, maybe watch them. Mainstream entertainment media always cover them and evaluate them from the "family friendly" point of view. They're household names. Everybody knows about the Lion King.

Therefore, each time Disney releases a big animated feature film, it competes for box office numbers with blockbuster releases of live action movies on a more-or-less equal ground (we'll ignore complications of American perceptions of animation here). Their successes are thus measured on a standard of many, many millions of dollars and many watchers, just like any big film from James Cameron or Michael Bay or Steven Spielberg.

That doesn't mean animation enthusiasts in the United States ignore their existence because they're so mainstream. People who like Teen Titans or Marvel comics or whatever niche entertainment are still interested in them. The general public. Everyone.

What I meant to say, and what I meant to correct you on in the first place, is that Ghibli stands on the same ground in Japan as Disney does in the United States. It has nothing to do with your and my opinion whether their movies are childish or appealing to all, but rather on the demographics of who goes to buy tickets at a movie theater to watch them when they get released.

And that includes the general Japanese public, including both otaku who follow the anime industry closely and the non-otaku people who generally perceives anime as "childish" and usually watch whatever popular drama happens to be on prime time TV over there, among other groups. We call an anime a success when it sells ten thousand DVDs or whatever the magic number is these days, but DVDs of Ghibli movies sell at a much, much higher volume.

Your first post up there somewhere referred to moe, and I inferred from it that you seem to suggest that the moe aesthetic is potentially the cause of why recent Ghibli films seem to have less, shall we say, involving plot compared to earlier ones (that may or may not be true depending on opinion, but let's assume that's true for now). I suggested otherwise, that the moe aesthetic is largely an otaku phenomenon (it has links to the more general kawaii aesthetic, but let's skip that), that Ghibli is not really influenced by it whatsoever, and therefore the moe aesthetic has nothing to do with why Ghibli films have evolved in the direction of...whatever your opinion is about that.

My...argument, or really just a discussion post, is not based on either what you or I think of Ghibli or the moe phenomenon, but rather on the "facts on the ground."

I'm sorry if I did not make that clear the first time.
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Old 2013-01-29, 23:02   Link #99
Kudryavka
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Now don't have too much fun, Irenicus.
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I'd like to bring up this Hosoda interview from 2007 that talks about this,in particular this was his response when asked what exactly happened during his time at Ghibli and why he ended up leaving.



In an interview this year Hosoda stated he still hasn't watched Howl's Moving Castle.
Of course what I find sort of ironic is that Hosoda is not shy about saying his new studio Chizu was created just to make his own movies,it'll be interesting to see if he's willing to welcome in other directors later in his career.




If there's a chance it's this year since the old guard will be back,Miyazaki will be back with his first movie in 5 years and Takahata with his first in 14 years.

It's the latter that I'm really looking forward to,Takahata hasn't failed me yet and he's been working on this for 5 years at least,highly looking forward to it.
That "one man = one studio" idea is an interesting one. But really I think having one mind controlling the project is better than having many minds inevitably conflicting in production. It would keep the final product in the original vision and without tampering and tugging in multiple directions.

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-01-29 at 23:20. Reason: im too funny sometimes
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Old 2013-01-30, 06:24   Link #100
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One Man= One Studio does seem to be true to a point or if not one man specifically then one core group.

I don't think this is bad per say because then the studio itself represents that person's art. However in many cases when that person leaves the studio fails especially if they are not good at welcoming new talent or don't let new talent do their own thing.
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