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Old 2013-01-29, 16:58   Link #1161
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
We will very likely have a flash back to that once the anime starts following Hero,s side of the story as it does set up a key plot point that is unavoidable unless major changes are made to the story. I do wish I knew if the order of events was the same in the manga as the novel. For all we know the anime may be sticking even closer to the novel then the manga did.
The problem here isn't that we don't see much of Hero's story. It's that we know nothing about the demon world and its problems, so the viewers don't care about what he's up to. And therein lies the main weakness of this show: there hasn't been enough good exposition to sell the world, and selling the world is a vital part of the story. We find out quite a bit of information about the human world: the power politics, food situation, commerce, social structure, and so forth. Demon King's efforts interweave with all of these elements, and we get an idea of the stakes involved. What about the demon world? Almost nothing - not the power situation, society, not even anything about normal demons.

I'm being a bit picky here, but I really question the premise behind sustaining the war as related by Demon King. Generally, famines happen when there are local shortages of food from temporary causes, but she's talking a global shortage, and a continual one at that. A continual global shortage of food means that there are too many people for the land to sustain across the entire human world. The only possible outcome is that people die off (and very quickly) until it drops to sustainable levels. In this kind of scenario, the human nations wouldn't have the capacity to survive, much less be able to wage war.

The overall idea of solving the problem through increased food production is a bit wonky as well. During the Medieval era, subsistence food production is strictly a local affair since it's impossible to transport vast quantities of food across large distances. And thus adding a corn crop in the north will do very little to help people starving in the south. Don't get me wrong - there are a lot of interesting ideas in the show, but they're just not developed as well as I'd like.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:51   Link #1162
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The overall idea of solving the problem through increased food production is a bit wonky as well. During the Medieval era, subsistence food production is strictly a local affair since it's impossible to transport vast quantities of food across large distances. And thus adding a corn crop in the north will do very little to help people starving in the south. Don't get me wrong - there are a lot of interesting ideas in the show, but they're just not developed as well as I'd like.
She's not doing it to feed the South. She's doing it to establish better relationships with Union and to make them pour their energies (and capital) into something other than warfare.

I don't know what all her plans are, or how much she'll have to adjust. But I'm pretty sure her endgame is "everyone trading with everyone else and having a lot more interest in keeping doing so than in waging war". And she doesn't mind thinking long term.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:52   Link #1163
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The problem here isn't that we don't see much of Hero's story. It's that we know nothing about the demon world and its problems, so the viewers don't care about what he's up to. And therein lies the main weakness of this show: there hasn't been enough good exposition to sell the world, and selling the world is a vital part of the story. We find out quite a bit of information about the human world: the power politics, food situation, commerce, social structure, and so forth. Demon King's efforts interweave with all of these elements, and we get an idea of the stakes involved. What about the demon world? Almost nothing - not the power situation, society, not even anything about normal demons.
Until proven wrong the conclusion is that showing demons (doing what demons do) would tarnish the low magic level setting they want to portray.

Quote:
I'm being a bit picky here, but I really question the premise behind sustaining the war as related by Demon King. Generally, famines happen when there are local shortages of food from temporary causes, but she's talking a global shortage, and a continual one at that. A continual global shortage of food means that there are too many people for the land to sustain across the entire human world. The only possible outcome is that people die off (and very quickly) until it drops to sustainable levels. In this kind of scenario, the human nations wouldn't have the capacity to survive, much less be able to wage war.
I am even more picky than you, but TBT the setting mimics the real world actual setting, where there is not enough fresh water and food to feed actual world population at the levels expected of developed countries. The end result, we have a percentage of the population that eats more than required (overweight people) and people that eat less than required, but they do not die right away, the live weak and frail lives and die young of common diseases. Even when the situation is dire and millions die in one year, the goverment will hide the fact to prevent political turmoil. Also, wars (like the ones we know exist and africa but seldom appear in the news) hide the fact that many of those who die already had high malnutrition levels.

Quote:
The overall idea of solving the problem through increased food production is a bit wonky as well. During the Medieval era, subsistence food production is strictly a local affair since it's impossible to transport vast quantities of food across large distances. And thus adding a corn crop in the north will do very little to help people starving in the south. Don't get me wrong - there are a lot of interesting ideas in the show, but they're just not developed as well as I'd like.
Let me remind you that in pre-medieval times (during the Roman Empire) North Africa was the barn that supplied the crops to feed the empire. A shift in the earth axis due to the moon slow retreat into deep space has changed that area into a vast desert but lets not forget that wheat + windmill = vast amounts of raw material to make bread or beer.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:01   Link #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The problem here isn't that we don't see much of Hero's story. It's that we know nothing about the demon world and its problems, so the viewers don't care about what he's up to. And therein lies the main weakness of this show: there hasn't been enough good exposition to sell the world, and selling the world is a vital part of the story. We find out quite a bit of information about the human world: the power politics, food situation, commerce, social structure, and so forth. Demon King's efforts interweave with all of these elements, and we get an idea of the stakes involved. What about the demon world? Almost nothing - not the power situation, society, not even anything about normal demons.
The first ep tells us that the Demons aren't so diffrent from the Humans. They too would fall into warring amongest themselves with out a strong enemy that forced them togeather under a strong leader. The Demons are generly in better shape as they have had Maou directing the from a position of power for an unspesified amout of time. It is reasonable to belive that Maou has the Demons as far as she can get them with out an outside influnce. This is likely why she is working on the less powerful southen kingdoms as they are the most likely to benifit from a lasting peace and Ep 1's intro hints it was the northen/central Kingdom that started the war. Currently Hero only has 2 tasks Find Witch Girl and Strongarm the clans that are starting to get out of line. Both of those are pretty well covered by the letters he has sent so untill he runs across a issue he can't solve by bashing it with a stick I don't realy expect to see it in depth.

Quote:
I'm being a bit picky here, but I really question the premise behind sustaining the war as related by Demon King. Generally, famines happen when there are local shortages of food from temporary causes, but she's talking a global shortage, and a continual one at that. A continual global shortage of food means that there are too many people for the land to sustain across the entire human world. The only possible outcome is that people die off (and very quickly) until it drops to sustainable levels. In this kind of scenario, the human nations wouldn't have the capacity to survive, much less be able to wage war.
It's not so much the land can't sustain the people it's that there aren't enough people with the required knowlage to grow enough food for everyone once the population is no longer being culled by war. It is also not a global shortage as the only areas that do have large shortages are in the southern lands that have poor soil and short growing seasons. The corn was to be used to allow setlement in areas that were too barren to grow the staple grain crops not to combat food shortages directly.

Quote:
The overall idea of solving the problem through increased food production is a bit wonky as well. During the Medieval era, subsistence food production is strictly a local affair since it's impossible to transport vast quantities of food across large distances. And thus adding a corn crop in the north will do very little to help people starving in the south. Don't get me wrong - there are a lot of interesting ideas in the show, but they're just not developed as well as I'd like.
Grains, Corn and Tubbers all are both very easly transported and last a long time frame before spoiling. Dryed corn (think unpoped popcorn) for milling can last for years.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:09   Link #1165
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You know, it's been really bugging me for a while. How does Maou knows what she knows? Where did she learn all this tech? Are they actually commonplace in Demon World? Does she have Doraemon's pocket?

The next thing we know Maou might just bring out the Printing Press and Steam Engine after all this food business is taken care of
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:18   Link #1166
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
You know, it's been really bugging me for a while. How does Maou knows what she knows? Where did she learn all this tech? Are they actually commonplace in Demon World? Does she have Doraemon's pocket?
It will be showed later on in a certain flashback. As of now, it's spoiler-ish to post the answer to your question.
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:22   Link #1167
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
You know, it's been really bugging me for a while. How does Maou knows what she knows? Where did she learn all this tech?
The answer to that was actually mentioned in passing (as is the problem with anything concerning the Demon World) concerning the Magician's travels: the Outer Library.

Spoiler for Minor Details:
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Old 2013-01-29, 20:33   Link #1168
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
The answer to that was actually mentioned in passing (as is the problem with anything concerning the Demon World) concerning the Magician's travels: the Outer Library.
And I was saving it until the anime itself properly show it too . Oh well...
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Old 2013-01-29, 21:14   Link #1169
Endless Knackwurst
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Actually, that spoiler reminds me that one of the main thoughts I've been having so far as I watch this series is that the world-building (in the literal sense) of this series reminds me of quite a few things, including Terry P.

But it is all held together by being generally amusing and having a fun cast.
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Old 2013-01-29, 21:57   Link #1170
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
The answer to that was actually mentioned in passing (as is the problem with anything concerning the Demon World) concerning the Magician's travels: the Outer Library.

Spoiler for Minor Details:
*read spoiler* Now I want to see an alternate version, where an evil Maou enchants Yuusha to be her pet and instead of new agricultural wonders, she brings into this era the horsing mount (a terrible weapon when employed by the cavalry), the gunpowder cannon (no brick and mortar fortification can resist) and the submarine (no naval vessel is safe).
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Old 2013-01-29, 22:29   Link #1171
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
*read spoiler* Now I want to see an alternate version, where an evil Maou enchants Yuusha to be her pet and instead of new agricultural wonders, she brings into this era the horsing mount (a terrible weapon when employed by the cavalry), the gunpowder cannon (no brick and mortar fortification can resist) and the submarine (no naval vessel is safe).
If Hero was on her side she wouldn't need those things. He's strong enough to obliterate the human and/or demon world by himself.
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Old 2013-01-29, 22:57   Link #1172
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
If Hero was on her side she wouldn't need those things. He's strong enough to obliterate the human and/or demon world by himself.
Which is again something we're not actually shown in the anime. Had some of the Demon World segments been animated, your average anime-only watcher will finally be given visual evidence that, yes, the Hero IS an unstoppable engine of kickass.
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Old 2013-01-30, 09:00   Link #1173
grevierr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
The answer to that was actually mentioned in passing (as is the problem with anything concerning the Demon World) concerning the Magician's travels: the Outer Library.

Spoiler for Minor Details:
Suddenly had this image that its this 'Wizzard' guy ... then remembers the Magician is female...
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Old 2013-01-30, 12:39   Link #1174
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She's not doing it to feed the South. She's doing it to establish better relationships with Union and to make them pour their energies (and capital) into something other than warfare.

I don't know what all her plans are, or how much she'll have to adjust. But I'm pretty sure her endgame is "everyone trading with everyone else and having a lot more interest in keeping doing so than in waging war". And she doesn't mind thinking long term.
Hmm... Food shortage = huge problem -> Introduce new crop food = has nothing to do with previous problem.

That makes some sense, but it's also pretty sloppy writing; especially since they already introduced the compass to do the same thing. It seems to be one of those "works great in a book, but comes off poorly when performed" situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I am even more picky than you, but TBT the setting mimics the real world actual setting, where there is not enough fresh water and food to feed actual world population at the levels expected of developed countries. The end result, we have a percentage of the population that eats more than required (overweight people) and people that eat less than required, but they do not die right away, the live weak and frail lives and die young of common diseases. Even when the situation is dire and millions die in one year, the goverment will hide the fact to prevent political turmoil. Also, wars (like the ones we know exist and africa but seldom appear in the news) hide the fact that many of those who die already had high malnutrition levels.
Starvation exists in the modern world because of local shortages and poor and unequal food distribution rather than because of a global shortage. Real humans have never experienced a global shortage (except maybe the ice ages), especially not continual ones, because those are extinction-level events. Your points don't address this at all because they are all local events and they are resolved over time. The example of the Chinese famine seems to support my points more: it was localised to China, it had a limited timeframe, and it was largely caused by unequal distribution. Demon King's explanation of the human world says that none of these are true, if only in the case of the southern countries.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Let me remind you that in pre-medieval times (during the Roman Empire) North Africa was the barn that supplied the crops to feed the empire. A shift in the earth axis due to the moon slow retreat into deep space has changed that area into a vast desert but lets not forget that wheat + windmill = vast amounts of raw material to make bread or beer.
Is that feed the Roman Empire or Italy or Rome the city? My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall it only applying to the city. Given that Medieval populations are vastly non-urban, what works for Rome the city (namely centralization, ease of transportation and distribution) aren't going to work for entire countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
The first ep tells us that the Demons aren't so diffrent from the Humans. They too would fall into warring amongest themselves with out a strong enemy that forced them togeather under a strong leader. The Demons are generly in better shape as they have had Maou directing the from a position of power for an unspesified amout of time. It is reasonable to belive that Maou has the Demons as far as she can get them with out an outside influnce. This is likely why she is working on the less powerful southen kingdoms as they are the most likely to benifit from a lasting peace and Ep 1's intro hints it was the northen/central Kingdom that started the war. Currently Hero only has 2 tasks Find Witch Girl and Strongarm the clans that are starting to get out of line. Both of those are pretty well covered by the letters he has sent so untill he runs across a issue he can't solve by bashing it with a stick I don't realy expect to see it in depth.
What we need to know about the demon world is a justification for them to continue the war, and why they shouldn't win it. We need to know who the main players are and why Demon King can't control them given her vastly superior knowledge and military technology. And really, what the anime has shown about the demon world tells us that they're nothing like the human world. Their interests, challenges and capabilities are entirely different. It should also be noted that Demon King seems to be a terrible leader thus far, and that the lack of attention paid to the demon world only exaggerates this factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
It's not so much the land can't sustain the people it's that there aren't enough people with the required knowlage to grow enough food for everyone once the population is no longer being culled by war.
An incapability to sustain includes all the factors: technology, transportation infrastructure, appropriate crops, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
It is also not a global shortage as the only areas that do have large shortages are in the southern lands that have poor soil and short growing seasons. The corn was to be used to allow setlement in areas that were too barren to grow the staple grain crops not to combat food shortages directly.
Didn't Demon King say that the problem was that humans didn't have enough food? That sounds like a global shortage to me.

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Old 2013-01-30, 13:32   Link #1175
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Starvation exists in the modern world because of local shortages and poor and unequal food distribution rather than because of a global shortage.
The law of demand and offer seems to contradict your statement, as prices for food have been increasing and will continue to increase in the near future as the amount of food production continues to be outpaced by the speed at which the human race keeps increasing in number.

Quote:
Real humans have never experienced a global shortage (except maybe the ice ages), especially not continual ones, because those are extinction-level events.
or a little ice age

Quote:
Your points don't address this at all because they are all local events and they are resolved over time. The example of the Chinese famine seems to support my points more: it was localised to China, it had a limited timeframe, and it was largely caused by unequal distribution. Demon King's explanation of the human world says that none of these are true, if only in the case of the southern countries.
China has a very vast territory, so using the world "localized" is a bit misleading, if a famine that killed millions happened in 20th century Europe it would have decimated several countries. It is the same in Yuusha's world, the whole southern part of the continent has been for several years on the verge of starvation. they cannot produce enough food and lack the money to buy it. <jojo>now you are going to say "That is a problem of food distribution, there is no real food crisis</jojo>, but you seem to forget one basic fact, the food the central goverment produces is already being consumed, there is no mention at all of food going to waste, so if by some magic spell the people in the south had money to buy food from the north, it would increase in price due to the increased demand and now many people in the central nations will not have enough food on the table everyday.

Quote:
Is that feed the Roman Empire or Italy or Rome the city? My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall it only applying to the city. Given that Medieval populations are vastly non-urban, what works for Rome the city (namely centralization, ease of transportation and distribution) aren't going to work for entire countries.
No doubt up to the industrial revolution most of the world population was concentrated in rural areas, but to think that the only city in all of the Roman empire was Rome is preposterous to say the least.
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Old 2013-01-30, 14:35   Link #1176
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Hmm... Food shortage = huge problem -> Introduce new crop food = has nothing to do with previous problem.

That makes some sense, but it's also pretty sloppy writing; especially since they already introduced the compass to do the same thing. It seems to be one of those "works great in a book, but comes off poorly when performed" situations.
The compass was just her way of saying hello. It's an advantage, certainly, and it may push them into increasing their sea trade a bit, but it's not going to revolutionize anything. The corn's what will make them seriously rethink their long term plans.
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Old 2013-01-30, 19:19   Link #1177
Magewolf
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There are two different elements to the food problem.

1 That the South can not feed itself and has to relay on imports


2 That the humans world has maxed out its food production or at least would not be able to ramp up to meet the non-war population.




Element 1 would be a problem even if the North was rolling in food since the South seems to lack trade goods.That is what the crop rotation and potatoes is supposed to help with.


Element 2 is a larger problem that the corn will help with but not solve. However it has another purpose in giving the merchants another revenue stream separate from the war. However it will take a lot of capital to get the ball rolling and since most of their capital is tied up in the war this gives the merchants a reason to want to end it.
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Old 2013-01-30, 20:25   Link #1178
4Tran
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
The law of demand and offer seems to contradict your statement, as prices for food have been increasing and will continue to increase in the near future as the amount of food production continues to be outpaced by the speed at which the human race keeps increasing in number.
Most of the increase in food prices comes from the increased price of fuel and the trend of developing countries to diversify their diets. How does this relate to some sort of global food shortage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That falls far short of any global shortage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
China has a very vast territory, so using the world "localized" is a bit misleading, if a famine that killed millions happened in 20th century Europe it would have decimated several countries.
What's misleading about it? A localised famine is one confined to either one region or one country, while a global one is one that affects the entire world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
It is the same in Yuusha's world, the whole southern part of the continent has been for several years on the verge of starvation. they cannot produce enough food and lack the money to buy it.
If that's the case, then that's what Demon King should have said, instead of saying that humans didn't have enough food. And do the "several years" the South had been on the verge of starvation start from before the Human-Demon war? After all, food shortages happen because of something - whether it's a natural disaster or lack of people working the fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
No doubt up to the industrial revolution most of the world population was concentrated in rural areas, but to think that the only city in all of the Roman empire was Rome is preposterous to say the least.
Rome is a very special case. It had over a million inhabitants, making it larger than the rest of the urbanization in all of Italy. Smaller cities could be fed by the farms surrounding them, but Rome itself was a bit too big for that. Hence it used imported foods to supplement its diet.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The compass was just her way of saying hello. It's an advantage, certainly, and it may push them into increasing their sea trade a bit, but it's not going to revolutionize anything. The corn's what will make them seriously rethink their long term plans.
The joke's on them. Startup colonies are big money losers for the first couple of hundred years.
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:28   Link #1179
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The joke's on them. Startup colonies are big money losers for the first couple of hundred years.
If only the British, Spanish, French, or Dutch knew that.
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Old 2013-01-31, 00:29   Link #1180
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