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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 12 22.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 30.19%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 41.51%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.89%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 3.77%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-01-28, 02:45   Link #61
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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First, I just want to thank the mods (Relentless in particular) for removing all the untagged hints and spoilers of future events (I see there are a few posted by some members in page 1 alone >_<). Those spoilers and hints kinda discourage me to visit this thread for a while now. I’m just glad that the same thing doesn’t happen (often) in anime-thread like Zetsuen.

As for the episode itself, yeah it’s kinda intense. Saki is now a tsundere who works in a "pest-control" department (or is it a bio-engineering lab for queerats?). Also, it’s impressive how (I assume) Yakomaru set Kiroumaru and his Giant-Hornets up to be annihilated. Maybe they did that because Giant-Hornet colony is the most loyal to the humans and won't cooperate with others for some grand-plan? Well, they're outta the picture now, I assume. Seeing those rats being able to make a gun in just 12(?) years is also amazing. Knowing that, why the humans other than our MCs never came up with the idea that maybe they managed to caught a false-minoshiro and do some thorough search in their colonies? I guess they really are confident with their cantus ability. Well, when one person is rumored to be able to split the world in half, who could blame their confidence . Oh yeah, Yakomaru’s VA has done a great job. He’s my favorite character so far. Viva la revolution!
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:22   Link #62
jeroz
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so we are at Cilvil War technology, when will we reach WW2?

I want to rip apart Squealer so bad, "equal standing"? I think he meant "equally sht except for myself". Oh he's smart alright, ambush the colony once the main army is out on the field to fight. I know you aren't suppose to have honours in wars, but this is just major war crime.
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Last edited by jeroz; 2013-01-28 at 22:59.
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Old 2013-01-28, 21:27   Link #63
Qpax
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I can't believe Saki, Yakomaru was lying in front of them obviously and all she does is bite her lips? Why is Yakomaru getting all the chances to fool the humans. it's like I'm watching a drama on TV.... I want that bastard die!!!

In the preview... was that Maria? Where's Mamoru? Kuromitsu?
Because Yakomaru knows all of Saki's secret since he helped both Satoru and Saki when they tried to take Maria and Mamoru back to village and it's highly for me that Yakomaru saw through that if Saki and Satouru didn't take Mamoru and Maria back to village then they will be in trouble. So they tried to cover up their run away from village and only Yakomaru knows that what actually Satoru and Saki did when they were away from village so he is using this as chance to blackmail them.

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
The fact he helped out our heroes early on has me on his side so I'm really pissed that it's likely he's dead.
So that why she just can't go and accuse Yakomaru as liar in front of commite members. I think somehow Satoru and Saki get away with village authorities by telling them Mamoru and Maria is dead. So it was accepted that they are dead but in reality they are not and Saki is covering this truth and this truth is know by Yakomaru since he must know the content of letter that was written by Maria. Because that colony is now allied with Yakomaru's and he knows this info. So what I am trying to say that they can't just go and accuse him as liar. If she did then its likely that her past experiences would be come to light when Yakomaru tells what happened in the past to commite members. Kiroumaru also helped them to escape and also kept their secret but he was noble but on the other hand Yakomaru is the same also knows Saki's secret but he is cunning and likely to inform on her if she does something that would danger Yakomaru's safety and his plans so she just shuts up and watches Yakomaru's as he is doing as he plases. Anyways that's my rambling so hope I don't confuse anyone or screwed on anything about the info.
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Old 2013-01-28, 22:42   Link #64
BBOvenGuy
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The thing I found most startling about this episode was the way the human society treats the "exospecies."

For one thing, the humans may condition themselves to feel sick at the thought of killing another human, but the deaths of queerats appear to have almost no effect on them at all. Saki and that "pest control" guy might as well have been on a picnic while the queerat armies were slaughtering each other. I almost expected there to be an office pool back in the exospecies department.

And yet, the humans created the queerats and/or continuously meddle in their evolution. What for? To do the manual labor? Why would they need that when they have the cantus? Entertainment? Cannon fodder in case an invader shows up from another part of the world?

Whatever the case, I don't think the humans are completely innocent. The day of reckoning that's coming for them won't be entirely undeserved.

Last edited by BBOvenGuy; 2013-01-29 at 02:15.
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Old 2013-01-29, 00:55   Link #65
Raviel
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^With the way things are now I don't think anyone is completely innocent, also was it ever explicitly stated people created the bakenezumi? Or were the bakenezumi mutants that came about because everyone's powers leak out (to a certain degree) and affect everything around them?

My memory of the info from the earlier episodes is a bit hazy.
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Old 2013-01-29, 04:54   Link #66
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
What for? To do the manual labor? Why would they need that when they have the cantus?
You can't exactly make crops grow and stuff like that with psychokinesis. Also, why would most people want to do hard manual labor if there's someone else who does it for them?
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Old 2013-01-29, 09:03   Link #67
Solace
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Well you can look at it two ways. One way is that they are humans who changed into another creature. Another way is that they are creatures who are becoming more human.

Put another way, does an object exist because of your awareness, or in spite of it? By this I'm referring to the unconscious effect psychic powers have on everything around the remaining humans.

Are the bakenezumi evolving to become more human because unconsciously humans are imprinting human characteristics on them? The term for this is anthropomorphism - something that we do all the time, even unconsciously.

Or were they humans who changed? Did psychic powers from humans who felt superior to normal humans change those normal humans into (what we would consider) inferior, disgusting creatures?

With the emphasis the story places on how much the society tries to control their influence on their surroundings, one has to wonder how the unleashing of psychic power warped the reality of the world. Species don't change so rapidly over a thousand years without outside help. What we see in SSY is the result of human interference with natural evolution.
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Old 2013-01-29, 15:59   Link #68
Dark Wing
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It was said that both Satoru and Saki had a falling out.

I'm thinking it might have been because one of them wanted to get married and have children but the other didn't knowing exactly the life their offspring would have to live.

Or maybe I'm thinking to much about this.
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Old 2013-01-29, 17:06   Link #69
Repelsteeltju
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Well you can look at it two ways. One way is that they are humans who changed into another creature. Another way is that they are creatures who are becoming more human.

Put another way, does an object exist because of your awareness, or in spite of it? By this I'm referring to the unconscious effect psychic powers have on everything around the remaining humans.

Are the bakenezumi evolving to become more human because unconsciously humans are imprinting human characteristics on them? The term for this is anthropomorphism - something that we do all the time, even unconsciously.

Or were they humans who changed? Did psychic powers from humans who felt superior to normal humans change those normal humans into (what we would consider) inferior, disgusting creatures?

With the emphasis the story places on how much the society tries to control their influence on their surroundings, one has to wonder how the unleashing of psychic power warped the reality of the world. Species don't change so rapidly over a thousand years without outside help. What we see in SSY is the result of human interference with natural evolution.
I think the presence of the naked mole rats in the lab implies that the Bakenezumi were selectively bred like the tainted cats were after them.

As for them becoming more human, Saki and Satoru think they might have captured and are consulting one of those mobile talking slimy libraries. They also idolize humans and presumably actively mimic us/them.
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Old 2013-01-29, 18:54   Link #70
roon
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Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
^With the way things are now I don't think anyone is completely innocent, also was it ever explicitly stated people created the bakenezumi? Or were the bakenezumi mutants that came about because everyone's powers leak out (to a certain degree) and affect everything around them?
They haven't answered these questions yet AFAIK, but personally, I believe the hints they've dropped (particularly when Shun was still around) about the way the town's barrier works lend credence to the latter.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Species don't change so rapidly over a thousand years without outside help. What we see in SSY is the result of human interference with natural evolution.
Human interference, but also possibly just knowledge in general? Especially with the implication that Yakomaru caught a false minoshiro. He seemed suspicious from the start, but with the knowledge of the past workings, he's empowered to be more 'human' than the humans we've grown accustomed to thus far.
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Old 2013-01-30, 03:59   Link #71
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
It was said that both Satoru and Saki had a falling out.

I'm thinking it might have been because one of them wanted to get married and have children but the other didn't knowing exactly the life their offspring would have to live.
One translation said "Satoru and I fell out over something petty a while back, so I was happy that some stupid colony gave us the chance to make up," so I don't think it could be something as serious as a falling out over marriage and potential children.
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Old 2013-01-30, 05:47   Link #72
kuromitsu
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Again, they had an argument over something that was so trivial that Narrator Saki doesn't even remember what it was. So they weren't speaking to each other for over a month.

I think it's likely that it had something to do with Saki's frustration with her job and Satoru perhaps being an idiot about it, but we'll never know.
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Old 2013-01-30, 06:30   Link #73
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I think it's likely that it had something to do with Saki's frustration with her job and Satoru perhaps being an idiot about it, but we'll never know.
Satoru is probably so dense after they did that...

Hayst.. I don't know if it'll be execiting if the rats will start pointing their guns on the humans...
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Old 2013-01-30, 10:54   Link #74
SeijiSensei
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I find it ironic that the society that has overthrown its queen and established a representative form of government is being cast in a negative light. With the emphasis on order that pervades this story, I wonder what political orientation the author of the novel, Kishi Yusuke, holds. Science fiction writers often injected their personal political views into their stories, the best-known being Robert A. Heinlein who was a devoted follower of radical individualist Ayn Rand. I think it remains unclear whether the forces of order or those of rebellion will end up winning out, though. It is certainly possible to imagine that the humans will meet an unfortunate end, and that Yakomaru and his clan will become the ultimate winners.
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Old 2013-01-30, 12:14   Link #75
BBOvenGuy
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I find it ironic that the society that has overthrown its queen and established a representative form of government is being cast in a negative light.
You're assuming that the new queerat government really is representative. We've been given no actual evidence either way - only Yakomaru's word that it's a democracy. But the twentieth century was littered with tyrannical regimes that called themselves democracies. The queerats imitate humans in a lot of ways, and this might be another one.

As The Who once said, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
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Old 2013-01-30, 15:31   Link #76
Repelsteeltju
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You're assuming that the new queerat government really is representative. We've been given no actual evidence either way - only Yakomaru's word that it's a democracy. But the twentieth century was littered with tyrannical regimes that called themselves democracies. The queerats imitate humans in a lot of ways, and this might be another one.

As The Who once said, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
You might be onto something there, seeing as most colonies were implied to have somewhat low literacy rates and Yakomaru's colony alone has some 55.000 (if not more) members. And it's unsure how far they're on printing. In light of these presumptions it's not far fetched to presume that the people choose representatives to choose who represents them in government.
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:58   Link #77
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We were discussing this in the Yakomaru thread, but I don't see what the motivation to lie about this would be. Since Saki's society is not democratic, he doesn't make himself look better to them by lying about the democratic nature of his state. I almost felt like he was expressing a little genuine anger in that scene that the political advances of his society were being looked down upon and given no regard by the humans.

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Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju View Post
I think the presence of the naked mole rats in the lab implies that the Bakenezumi were selectively bred like the tainted cats were after them.
I had been thinking they were some type of mutated-by-psipowers version of the commoners or hunter gatherers mentioned by the false minoshiro, but the naked mole rat scene has left me rather confused. Were they bred to be manual laborers, then escaped into the wild? If that's the case, how can you reconcile the 'foreign' mole rats from earlier in the series that presumably arrived from continental Asia or a faraway part of Japan that is essentially uncharted to the humans?

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On the bit about the anime being random, like the pair ups in the earlier episodes, those were in no way random because we were clearly shown that their society promotes "stress relief" from any member of the same species. Remember the whole bit about Bonobos?

In fact most of what we've seen is in line with what the "info dump" episodes have shown.
If it isn't random, it's poorly executed. It feels like Saki's society has young kids in homosexual relationships and then 'graduating' to heterosexual ones when they get older. Putting aside the negative implications this arrangement shows to homosexuality, this isn't anything like Bonobo sexuality. They aren't monogamous creatures and do not pair up into relationships like that. They simply have sex with anyone in their group. If they wanted to depict a real, Bonobo-like society of love, then they should be going all the way to the casual Bonobo state without such pairings and with everyone as a potential 'target of love.' Clearly, Mamoru was already feeling isolated from not being paired with the girl he pined for, which proves A. this homosexual in early years -> heterosexual in later years arrangement does not make everyone feel included and integrated into a society of love, and B. their 'genetic rewiring' didn't work out too well if Mamoru is on a one-track monogamous outlook himself.

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2013-01-31 at 11:43.
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Old 2013-01-31, 12:21   Link #78
orion
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If it isn't random, it's poorly executed. It feels like Saki's society has young kids in homosexual relationships and then 'graduating' to heterosexual ones when they get older. Putting aside the negative implications this arrangement shows to homosexuality, this isn't anything like Bonobo sexuality. They aren't monogamous creatures and do not pair up into relationships like that. They simply have sex with anyone in their group. If they wanted to depict a real, Bonobo-like society of love, then they should be going all the way to the casual Bonobo state without such pairings and with everyone as a potential 'target of love.' Clearly, Mamoru was already feeling isolated from not being paired with the girl he pined for, which proves A. this homosexual in early years -> heterosexual in later years arrangement does not make everyone feel included and integrated into a society of love, and B. their 'genetic rewiring' didn't work out too well if Mamoru is on a one-track monogamous outlook himself.
Maybe it's the lack of conditioning in Saki's group. They could be conditioning those kids to gradually turn to heterosexual relationships so when they fiinally reach 18 they are partnered up and ready to have kids.
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Old 2013-01-31, 14:15   Link #79
pinoscotto
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
We were discussing this in the Yakomaru thread, but I don't see what the motivation to lie about this would be. Since Saki's society is not democratic, he doesn't make himself look better to them by lying about the democratic nature of his state. I almost felt like he was expressing a little genuine anger in that scene that the political advances of his society were being looked down upon and given no regard by the humans.



I had been thinking they were some type of mutated-by-psipowers version of the commoners or hunter gatherers mentioned by the false minoshiro, but the naked mole rat scene has left me rather confused. Were they bred to be manual laborers, then escaped into the wild? If that's the case, how can you reconcile the 'foreign' mole rats from earlier in the series that presumably arrived from continental Asia or a faraway part of Japan that is essentially uncharted to the humans?



If it isn't random, it's poorly executed. It feels like Saki's society has young kids in homosexual relationships and then 'graduating' to heterosexual ones when they get older. Putting aside the negative implications this arrangement shows to homosexuality, this isn't anything like Bonobo sexuality. They aren't monogamous creatures and do not pair up into relationships like that. They simply have sex with anyone in their group. If they wanted to depict a real, Bonobo-like society of love, then they should be going all the way to the casual Bonobo state without such pairings and with everyone as a potential 'target of love.' Clearly, Mamoru was already feeling isolated from not being paired with the girl he pined for, which proves A. this homosexual in early years -> heterosexual in later years arrangement does not make everyone feel included and integrated into a society of love, and B. their 'genetic rewiring' didn't work out too well if Mamoru is on a one-track monogamous outlook himself.
1)i think when the minoshiro talked about bonobos' society it was referring to sexual intercourses used to relieve stress, nothing else
2)kids are forced into homosexual relationships, adults are forced into straight ones, homosexuality is not a theme of the show, sexual freedom is. it would be a problem if the author was talking about an utopian society, but this is a distopy, i don't think he is a promotor of child-killing
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Old 2013-01-31, 17:28   Link #80
Dawnstorm
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The two are such perfect foils for each other, though, I kind of wish we had a spinoff about them.
Good god, you've given me an image I can't shake now:

World Masterpiece Theatre, bakenezumi edition. Don Quijote, featuring Kiroumaru as Don Quijote and Yakomaru as Sancho Pansa.

As odd as this sounds, I think that encapsulatse both Kiroumaru's sense of honour and Yakomaru's pragmatism to a T.
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