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Old 2013-01-30, 08:25   Link #5781
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes...

I know...

I also explained why i couldn't accept it. But just saying that's not what the story did is not a good comeback.
It's the only answer I can give you when you're asking for a hint of whether Orb has turned against its ideals. The hint is right there: Orb joined the EA.
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It does when the soldiers continue to fight for said country.
If you're talking about the Kusanagi, the main objective of the TSA is to prevent the tragedy caused by the extremists from EA and from ZAFT. So at times it fought the EA to protect ZAFT, and at other times it fought ZAFT to protect the EA.
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Just because it's a foreign policy doesn't mean they intend it to be situational. Uzumi and other characters made it clear those ideals had preserved through changing times and were meant to keep on doing so.
The reason Uzumi sent the Archangel and Kusanagi away was that he realized that the current situation between Blue Cosmos and a Zala-led ZAFT was more important than Orb. In other words, he knew that it was not the time for neutrality, even if Orb were to be lost.
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But can those ideals be changed? Yeah sure, I can accept that Orb might wish to change those ideals.

But I never had an issue with that in the first place. My issue was the change itself didn't make sense.
Again with the not making sense part? What part of not wanting to be invaded again does not make sense to you? They didn't join the EA just because they felt like it, you know.
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And I also made the point that even if they do decide to abadon the ideals, this won't mean that the people would be willing to side with a force that invaded them and killed them just two years ago.
And that's why I said to look at the portrayal of the soldiers. Even if they didn't like it, they still obeyed the government.

In other words, whatever feelings that Orb people may have about the decision, it wasn't enough to stop the government from following through with it, especially when you consider the possible threat of another invasion.
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Old 2013-01-30, 09:36   Link #5782
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
It's the only answer I can give you when you're asking for a hint of whether Orb has turned against its ideals. The hint is right there: Orb joined the EA.
That's a not a hint though. You can't hint at yourself.

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If you're talking about the Kusanagi, the main objective of the TSA is to prevent the tragedy caused by the extremists from EA and from ZAFT. So at times it fought the EA to protect ZAFT, and at other times it fought ZAFT to protect the EA.
It was fighting to end the war altogether so they could regain their country back.

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The reason Uzumi sent the Archangel and Kusanagi away was that he realized that the current situation between Blue Cosmos and a Zala-led ZAFT was more important than Orb. In other words, he knew that it was not the time for neutrality, even if Orb were to be lost.
He also said that Orb was lost right before that. He didn't put the greater conflict ahead of Orb. He saw that Orb was lost anyway and sought to focus on the greater conflict that had affected Orb. And he didn't send them off in spite of neutrality. He sent them off to prevent further polarization so that neutrality would be possible again.

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Again with the not making sense part? What part of not wanting to be invaded again does not make sense to you? They didn't join the EA just because they felt like it, you know.
Because it's out of character...

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And that's why I said to look at the portrayal of the soldiers. Even if they didn't like it, they still obeyed the government.

In other words, whatever feelings that Orb people may have about the decision, it wasn't enough to stop the government from following through with it, especially when you consider the possible threat of another invasion.
The soldiers were following orders because that's what soldiers do. That's not going to extend to the people.

And even then they defected to Cagalli anyway.
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Old 2013-01-30, 13:03   Link #5783
kaito-kid
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So it turns out there is difference between the Remaster that aired on TV / Youtube and the Blu ray version of the remaster. They reanimated even more shots.

Ow and Stargazer is also getting a Blu ray release.

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Old 2013-01-30, 13:51   Link #5784
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
So it turns out there is difference between the Remaster that aired on TV / Youtube and the Blu ray version of the remaster. They reanimated even more shots.
Wow I didn't think they'd go the extra mile for the Blue ray release? Makes me wish they'd dub it for the west, though that's probably not going to happen.
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Old 2013-01-30, 14:28   Link #5785
Haak
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Just watched Stargazer. Man, I wish it had been a 12 episode anime. That was pretty good stuff. The romance at the end was a little tacked on but this kind of tragic side story brought back strong memories of War in the Pocket. That scene where they show the video of the kids calling for the death of all naturals was pretty chilling (and I liked how they actually did show that there were other terrorists).
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Old 2013-01-30, 15:05   Link #5786
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's a not a hint though. You can't hint at yourself.
You're right. It's more than a hint. It's actually telling you.
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It was fighting to end the war altogether so they could regain their country back.



He also said that Orb was lost right before that. He didn't put the greater conflict ahead of Orb. He saw that Orb was lost anyway and sought to focus on the greater conflict that had affected Orb. And he didn't send them off in spite of neutrality. He sent them off to prevent further polarization so that neutrality would be possible again.
Except if they were still focused solely on their ideals, Kusanagi would've simply fought against the AF force that is occupying Orb. They would remain neutral in the war between EA and PLANTs.
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Because it's out of character...
And I've already explained to you that they've had to reassess their priority. So no, that's not out of character.
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The soldiers were following orders because that's what soldiers do. That's not going to extend to the people.

And even then they defected to Cagalli anyway.
And if the soldiers who actually fought and died for Orb still followed through, do you really think the people who stayed safe at Orb will be any different, especially if they didn't have to face the threat of another invasion?
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:03   Link #5787
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
You're right. It's more than a hint. It's actually telling you.
And I'm calling BS on it. I find the Orb's decision to abandon it's ideals to be contrived and out of character. But your answer to that is to say it's not out of character because it happened? That's begging the question.

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Except if they were still focused solely on their ideals, Kusanagi would've simply fought against the AF force that is occupying Orb. They would remain neutral in the war between EA and PLANTs.
Yes that would've been a way also. But as I just said, he ordered Kusanagi to fight both ZAFT and the Earth Alliance so that they could prevent further polarization, end the war, and regain the country that way.

From his speech he made it clear that the biggest reason that Orb was about to be invaded was not solely because of the Earth Alliance but because of the greater war between ZAFT and the Earth Alliance and he sent Kusanagi to end that. He sent Kusanagi to end to deeper reason why Orb had been invaded.

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And I've already explained to you that they've had to reassess their priority. So no, that's not out of character.
And I've already explained how that's out of character.

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And if the soldiers who actually fought and died for Orb still followed through, do you really think the people who stayed safe at Orb will be any different, especially if they didn't have to face the threat of another invasion?
Yes. The soldiers didn't want to actually fight and only did so when ordered. They were willing to die for it but they still only did so when ordered (And as I pointed out, they still broke their orders and joined Cagalli). They were clearly not concerned about the threat of another invasion when they did what they did.

The people won't have such orders and whilst they obviously will be concerned about another invasion there should still be many that will be livid about the prospect of helping the Earth alliance. This is a country that, according to Lacus Clyne "is strong in ideals" and according to Uzumi has always preserved it's ideals through changing times. I can imagine a dent put in that, but not a a complete 180 reversal like this.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:16   Link #5788
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And I'm calling BS on it. I find the Orb's decision to abandon it's ideals to be contrived and out of character. But your answer to that is to say it's not out of character because it happened? That's begging the question.

And I've already explained how that's out of character.
There are two things here:

1. The answer to your question of whether Orb has abandoned its ideals:
Yes, Orb has joined the EA.

2. Your statement regarding it being out of character:
It's not because governments change what amounts to a foreign policy (as you have admitted) for what they think would benefit their country better.

Reevaluating your priorities is not BS. Otherwise people and societies will never change.
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Yes that would've been a way also. But as I just said, he ordered Kusanagi to fight both ZAFT and the Earth Alliance so that they could prevent further polarization, end the war, and regain the country that way.
In other words, he realized that Orb cannot remain neutral.
Quote:
I can imagine a dent put in that, but not a a complete 180 reversal like this.
I can imagine what a full invasion can do to people who have been leaving in peace for so long only to realize how helpless they really are.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:18   Link #5789
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
So it turns out there is difference between the Remaster that aired on TV / Youtube and the Blu ray version of the remaster. They reanimated even more shots.
Damn, those scenes are sweet. I'm glad I chose to wait to dl the BD fansub, not the aired version.

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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
Ow and Stargazer is also getting a Blu ray release.

Good stuff. I hope it also comes with remastered scenes as some action scenes in it (eps 3 in particular) look atrocious (due to budget I assume).
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:26   Link #5790
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
So it turns out there is difference between the Remaster that aired on TV / Youtube and the Blu ray version of the remaster. They reanimated even more shots.
Why did they change Flay's uniform back to the AF's uniform?
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:37   Link #5791
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Oh.

Thanks for that.

Oh, so they actually have less cropping in the Blu-ray. That's nice.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:44   Link #5792
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Why did they change Flay's uniform back to the AF's uniform?
I pushed the wrong button while editing it and my post before yours got erased . Let me put it up again:

Aired = AF uniform


BD = ZAFT uniform



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Oh.

Thanks for that.
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Old 2013-01-31, 01:20   Link #5793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Oh.

Thanks for that.

Oh, so they actually have less cropping in the Blu-ray. That's nice.
pretty much, so every youtube/BS11 release is a preview for the actual remastering X_X
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Old 2013-01-31, 01:23   Link #5794
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Well, I've always thought that would be the case. I just didn't think they were going to crop the frames differently.
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Old 2013-01-31, 04:56   Link #5795
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
There are two things here:

1. The answer to your question of whether Orb has abandoned its ideals:
Yes, Orb has joined the EA.
I never asked whether Orb had abandoned it's ideals unless I did so rhetorically. I don't know why you think I did.

Quote:
2. Your statement regarding it being out of character:
It's not because governments change what amounts to a foreign policy (as you have admitted) for what they think would benefit their country better.

Reevaluating your priorities is not BS. Otherwise people and societies will never change.
They certainly do. But you're refusing to acknowledge the context surrounding Orb that I've pointed out on numerous occasions. The ideals of Orb are indeed foreign policy but were clearly not just another foreign policy that could be changed. To the Orb, they were a lot stronger than that. It's not BS to change it, but it can still be out of character.

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In other words, he realized that Orb cannot remain neutral.
But they did remain neutral. You said it yourself that they fought against both ZAFT and the Earth Alliance.

In any case it doesn't even matter. The point here was that they're not interfering with a conflict that doesn't concern them, since it's this conflict that led to their country being invaded. Thus they were not breaking the third ideal.

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I can imagine what a full invasion can do to people who have been leaving in peace for so long only to realize how helpless they really are.
I can too. But unless you acknowledge all the other factors surrounding Orb that I pointed out, I won't be convinced you're talking about Orb.
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Old 2013-01-31, 05:15   Link #5796
monster
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The ideals of Orb are indeed foreign policy but were clearly not just another foreign policy that could be changed. To the Orb, they were a lot stronger than that. It's not BS to change it, but it can still be out of character.
And that is why I specifically mentioned the invasion. This change did not come out of nowhere. You cannot say it's out of character when something big like that happen that could shatter their idealistic worldview.
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But they did remain neutral. You said it yourself that they fought against both ZAFT and the Earth Alliance.
Exactly. They interfered with the conflicts of other nations.
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In any case it doesn't even matter. The point here was that they're not interfering with a conflict that doesn't concern them, since it's this conflict that led to their country being invaded. Thus they were not breaking the third ideal.
Except that's not how Orb's ideals work. For all three claims to be valid, Orb should only attack an invading force.

That means, the Kusanagi's only job should've been to fight the occupying AF force, not go into space fighting in other people's war.
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I can too. But unless you acknowledge all the other factors surrounding Orb that I pointed out, I won't be convinced you're talking about Orb.
If by other factors, you meant the people's reaction, I've already addressed that. Whatever feelings they may have, it wasn't strong enough to block Orb's entry into the Alliance. It's not like governments always do what their people want them to do.

And I've already given reasons why the people might agree, even grudgingly. If you're just going to call BS on that, well that's that. As far as the show and I are concerned, it's still Orb. Countries can change, especially after a defeat in war in their own territory.
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Old 2013-01-31, 05:31   Link #5797
Haak
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And that is why I specifically mentioned the invasion. This change did not come out of nowhere. You cannot say it's out of character when something big like that happen that could shatter their idealistic worldview.
And I gave reasons why it's still out of character. Don't pretend I didn't.

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Exactly. They interfered with the conflicts of other nations. Except that's not how Orb's ideals work. For all three claims to be valid, Orb should only attack an invading force.

That means, the Kusanagi's only job should've been to fight the occupying AF force, not go into space fighting in other people's war.
What makes you think it doesn't work like that? Why should it only be an invading force when Uzumi identified that the real reason they were invaded was the war itself? Since they recognised that the war itself lead to their invasion (something that you yourself acknowledged) it's not going to be seen as someone else's war. Not by a long shot

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If by other factors, you meant the people's reaction, I've already addressed that. Whatever feelings they may have, it wasn't strong enough to block Orb's entry into the Alliance. It's not like governments always do what their people want them to do.
You didn't address that at all. You just said it happened, but that's exactly what I'm saying is out of character.

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And I've already given reasons why the people might agree, even grudgingly. If you're just going to call BS on that, well that's that. As far as the show and I are concerned, it's still Orb. Countries can change, especially after a defeat in war in their own territory.
But I acknowledged your reasons and put it into perspective. You just flat out ignored mine.

1) Blame is focused to the external, not internal. They would focus blame on the Earth Alliance.
2) Orb still regained it's country after the war which should only empower them.
3) The ideals are integral to the nation: A point acknowledged by numerous characters and proven by their military.
4) The level of hatred for the Earth Alliance just two years after an invasion would be intense.

The threat of another invasion would be something they might fear but not enough to blow away all the other factors: A complete 180 reversal is just unlikely.
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Old 2013-01-31, 06:06   Link #5798
monster
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Uzumi identified that the real reason they were invaded was the war itself?
Because if Orb starts interfering in conflicts that could lead to their invasion, Orb would have to start going to war every time the EA and ZAFT goes to war. The more realistic interpretation of how these ideals work is that Orb would exercise its military power to defend its territories, but no more. That's exactly what happened when Archangel first went to Orb and how Orb only "attacked" the moment Archangel crossed the border even though the battle has been going on in the vicinity of Orb.
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1) Blame is focused to the external, not internal. They would focus blame on the Earth Alliance.
That's one possible reaction. The other possible reaction is that the loser lost the will power to challenge the winner again.
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2) Orb still regained it's country after the war which should only empower them.
It wasn't regained by force, though. It was regained through the peace treaty after both EA and ZAFT lost the desire to continue the first war. That peace treaty also banned nuclear weapon, which was quickly ignored. So you expect Orb to be empowered by a treaty that's been broken?
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3) The ideals are integral to the nation: A point acknowledged by numerous characters and proven by their military.
Again, that same military still went along with the war.
Quote:
4) The level of hatred for the Earth Alliance just two years after an invasion would be intense.
So would the memory that their country is actually powerless if the EA wanted to crush them.
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Old 2013-01-31, 07:00   Link #5799
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Because if Orb starts interfering in conflicts that could lead to their invasion, Orb would have to start going to war every time the EA and ZAFT goes to war. The more realistic interpretation of how these ideals work is that Orb would exercise its military power to defend its territories, but no more. That's exactly what happened when Archangel first went to Orb and how Orb only "attacked" the moment Archangel crossed the border even though the battle has been going on in the vicinity of Orb.
But Orb didn't intervene in a conflict that could lead to it's invasion. It intervened in a conflict only when it did lead to their invasion. That doesn't automatically mean it's justifying a pre emptive strike. Slippery slope fallacy.

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That's one possible reaction. The other possible reaction is that the loser lost the will power to challenge the winner again.
When a country is under threat it almost always shifts the blame to the external. It's not just possible, it's almost always the case.

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It wasn't regained by force, though. It was regained through the peace treaty after both EA and ZAFT lost the desire to continue the first war. That peace treaty also banned nuclear weapon, which was quickly ignored. So you expect Orb to be empowered by a treaty that's been broken?
It was regained by force. The fact remains that Orb soldiers made a contributive effort to ending the war and thus gaining their country back. So yes, they're going to be empowered by that.

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Again, that same military still went along with the war.
And again, they were only following their orders. The idea that they would be crushed if they didn't, was hardly even a factor. They grudgingly did so and even then they still defected the Cagalli so they could follow their ideals again. And the story still made a point about how these ideals are integral to them.

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So would the memory that their country is actually powerless if the EA wanted to crush them.
Again, not enough to override everything else.
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Old 2013-01-31, 07:13   Link #5800
monster
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But Orb didn't intervene in a conflict that could lead to it's invasion. It intervened in a conflict only when it did lead to their invasion.
Then if that's the case, Uzumi should've accepted ZAFT's offer to help since they're already involved. Yet he didn't precisely to make the distinction that Orb's conflict with the EA is a different conflict than the one between EA and ZAFT.
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When a country is under threat it almost always shifts the blame to the external. It's not just possible, it's almost always the case.
But that's not the same thing as having the will power to fight against them.
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It was regained by force. The fact remains that Orb soldiers made a contributive effort to ending the war and thus gaining their country back. So yes, they're going to be empowered by that.
Not when most of that contribution didn't come from Orb, but from the other members of the TSA.
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And again, they were only following their orders.
Oh, so their orders are more important than their ideals?
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Again, not enough to override everything else.
I'm sorry if that's not enough for you, But you don't get to make that decision for Orb.
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