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Old 2013-01-31, 07:23   Link #5801
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Then if that's the case, Uzumi should've accepted ZAFT's offer to help since they're already involved. Yet he didn't precisely to make the distinction that Orb's conflict with the EA is a different conflict than the one between EA and ZAFT.
Or rather to emphasise that he wasn't taking sides and was going to remain neutral.

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But that's not the same thing as having the will power to fight against them.
On it's own? No. But it's not on it's own is it? I didn't number those points to make them individual. I specifically said the whole context has to be considered.

But we can at least confirm that Orb is not likely to blame it's ideals but consider the Earth Alliance at fault, right?

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Not when most of that contribution didn't come from Orb, but from the other members of the TSA.
Yes it will. Orb still made a contributive effort and that will stick to people's minds.

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Oh, so their orders are more important than their ideals?
They're soldiers so yeah. And even then they still defected.

The fact remains that what they did still proves that the ideals are still a strong part of their culture.

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I'm sorry if that's not enough for you, But you don't get to make that decision for Orb.
Yes I do. It's my perspective isn't it?
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Old 2013-01-31, 07:51   Link #5802
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Or rather to emphasise that he wasn't taking sides and was going to remain neutral.
And meanwhile Orb is taken.
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I specifically said the whole context has to be considered.
Then consider the fact that Orb still could not defeat the AF on its own. That is the context.
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But we can at least confirm that Orb is not likely to blame it's ideals but consider the Earth Alliance at fault, right?
I'm saying it doesn't matter either way if they feel that their lives may be at stake.
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Yes it will. Orb still made a contributive effort and that will stick to people's minds.
So will the fact that they still couldn't defend themselves. Do you expect Orb to let itself be invaded again in the hope that once again the war will end quickly and they will be free again?
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They're soldiers so yeah.
Good, so we can finally agree that these ideals do not always take precedence.
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Yes I do. It's my perspective isn't it?
It's one thing to have your own perspective and disagree with what Orb did.

it's another to force your perspective on Orb and act like they share your perspective.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:51   Link #5803
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And meanwhile Orb is taken.
And? The point remains that Uzumi didn't break the third ideal right? That was your original point.

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Then consider the fact that Orb still could not defeat the AF on its own. That is the context.
That is obviously not the whole context...

The point is that the people are more likely to blame the Earth Alliance and not the ideals. That alone is not enough to give them the willpower to go against the treaty if it means another invasion. However under the following context...

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I'm saying it doesn't matter either way if they feel that their lives may be at stake.
And I'm saying it does. If it's more likely to consider the Earth Alliance at fault than it's ideals, then it's less likely comprise the it's ideals for the Earth alliance. The threat of another invasion will have an effect but not enough for a complete 180 reversal, especially when you consider the other factors.

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So will the fact that they still couldn't defend themselves. Do you expect Orb to let itself be invaded again in the hope that once again the war will end quickly and they will be free again?
In the hopes that they can be free again and maintain the ideals so integral to them? Yeah pretty much. It worked the first time and they will be empowered by that. Had they just given up the first time, they wouldn't have gotten their country back assuming the war would've even ended.

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Good, so we can finally agree that these ideals do not always take precedence.
Then you can acknowledge that the ideals are still a strong part of the culture and whilst it might not take precedence above everything else, a complete 180 reversal is still out of the question.

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It's one thing to have your own perspective and disagree with what Orb did.

it's another to force your perspective on Orb and act like they share your perspective.
They do share my perspective. Or at least they ought to.

I'm not disagreeing with what Orb did. I'm saying that what Orb did is out of character and explaining why. From my perspective, Orb shouldn't act the way they did.
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Old 2013-01-31, 12:19   Link #5804
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
They do share my perspective. Or at least they ought to.

I'm not disagreeing with what Orb did. I'm saying that what Orb did is out of character and explaining why. From my perspective, Orb shouldn't act the way they did.
It's a animated work for teenage boys/girls in japan, i hardly doubt they share anyones perspective or opinions seeing how they are made up characters in a animated show.

Orb acted out of the Uzumi's administration's/Family Ideals since Cagalli somehow lost her brains and let the Seiran family seize power overnight.

if you recall the arguments the parliament/high council had in seed, with Uzumi seeming to be the only one determinated on how to handle things, with his death Cagalli carried her fathers ideals in her administration, Until Destiny mindf*cked her into stupidity.
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Old 2013-01-31, 14:02   Link #5805
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In the hopes that they can be free again and maintain the ideals so integral to them? Yeah pretty much.

...

They do share my perspective. Or at least they ought to.

I'm not disagreeing with what Orb did. I'm saying that what Orb did is out of character and explaining why. From my perspective, Orb shouldn't act the way they did.
Well, in reality, not everybody feels the same way as you. So it's not out of character because it's reasonable for people to want to stay protected.
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Old 2013-01-31, 14:57   Link #5806
Haak
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
It's a animated work for teenage boys/girls in japan, i hardly doubt they share anyones perspective or opinions seeing how they are made up characters in a animated show.

Orb acted out of the Uzumi's administration's/Family Ideals since Cagalli somehow lost her brains and let the Seiran family seize power overnight.

if you recall the arguments the parliament/high council had in seed, with Uzumi seeming to be the only one determinated on how to handle things, with his death Cagalli carried her fathers ideals in her administration, Until Destiny mindf*cked her into stupidity.
Well I do understand there's a lot of ambiguity into what the people actually thought about any of it and how Orb's government actually works, and whilst it did seem to be a one man show with Uzumi calling the shots, i always figured that what with Orb being portrayed as the ultimate ideal society, Uzumi did represent the people and the people did believe strongly in those ideals.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, in reality, not everybody feels the same way as you. So it's not out of character because it's reasonable for people to want to stay protected.
Again, I am aware of that. But given the whole context of Orb, I still think a 180 degree turn around is out of character. Heck the treaty could still go ahead but I'd still expect major polarizations and dissension.
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Old 2013-01-31, 15:29   Link #5807
monster
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Again, I am aware of that. But given the whole context of Orb, I still think a 180 degree turn around is out of character. Heck the treaty could still go ahead but I'd still expect major polarizations and dissension.
I think if there were any reason to believe that Orb could stand a chance resisting a possible AF attack on its own, there would be dissension, but not mere 2 years when Orb realized that it couldn't.
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Old 2013-01-31, 15:43   Link #5808
Haak
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A mere two years?

If a country were to be invaded and then gain it's country back, there would be massive amounts of weapon stockpiling and increases to military budgeting like you would not believe.
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Old 2013-01-31, 16:14   Link #5809
monster
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A mere two years?

If a country were to be invaded and then gain it's country back, there would be massive amounts of weapon stockpiling and increases to military budgeting like you would not believe.
And you don't think the EA could do the same?

Also remember that the EA defeated Orb 2 years ago with only a small portion of their military force after they've been fighting in a war for nearly a year and after they've just sacrificed another, bigger, portion of their fleet at Alaska, and while they're still fighting the war elsewhere.
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Old 2013-01-31, 16:32   Link #5810
Haak
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They'd do enough to make the Earth Alliance think it's more effort than it's worth. They don't necessarily have to have enough to actually beat the Earth Alliance.
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Old 2013-01-31, 17:16   Link #5811
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well I do understand there's a lot of ambiguity into what the people actually thought about any of it and how Orb's government actually works, and whilst it did seem to be a one man show with Uzumi calling the shots, i always figured that what with Orb being portrayed as the ultimate ideal society, Uzumi did represent the people and the people did believe strongly in those ideals.
Honestly, we havent seen alot of Orb civilian except the main cast(s), Uzumi and Cagalli and the Seirans (not counting all the side-characters) out of the royal families of Orb, the Atha's was clearly in charge during SEED, and their ideal was shared by the country, since we've seen nothing from the civilians in Destiny under the Seiran family's rule, we can't really tell what the people felt or belived during that time.

Uzumi being in charge = Following his ideal and defending it even if the nation burns to the ground following the very same ideal.

Yuuna/Seiran's being in charge = Following their ideal (As in joining the alliance to avoid having Orb turn into a battlefield again, Seiran's being the cowards they where shown to be picked survival at any cost and to abandon Orb's ideal.
(As shown several times in Destiny aswell, the Orb military mainly follows the Seiran ideal)

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Again, I am aware of that. But given the whole context of Orb, I still think a 180 degree turn around is out of character. Heck the treaty could still go ahead but I'd still expect major polarizations and dissension.
It's not, new leadership means new ways of leading the country, if you are American think republican, democrats or liberals but instead of being a party, it's ruled by one person.

Also, we're forgetting that while Orb is a small country, it does have a mass-driver and a top-notch military (including military factories) i'm quite sure the EA would love to get their hands on, with or without Orb's civilians
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Old 2013-01-31, 22:23   Link #5812
monster
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They'd do enough to make the Earth Alliance think it's more effort than it's worth.
There's no evidence to support that claim.
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Old 2013-02-01, 05:45   Link #5813
Haak
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Honestly, we havent seen alot of Orb civilian except the main cast(s), Uzumi and Cagalli and the Seirans (not counting all the side-characters) out of the royal families of Orb, the Atha's was clearly in charge during SEED, and their ideal was shared by the country, since we've seen nothing from the civilians in Destiny under the Seiran family's rule, we can't really tell what the people felt or belived during that time.

Uzumi being in charge = Following his ideal and defending it even if the nation burns to the ground following the very same ideal.

Yuuna/Seiran's being in charge = Following their ideal (As in joining the alliance to avoid having Orb turn into a battlefield again, Seiran's being the cowards they where shown to be picked survival at any cost and to abandon Orb's ideal.
(As shown several times in Destiny aswell, the Orb military mainly follows the Seiran ideal)

It's not, new leadership means new ways of leading the country, if you are American think republican, democrats or liberals but instead of being a party, it's ruled by one person.
When it comes to foreign policy, democrats and republicans haven't really been all that different from one another. I understand what you're saying but the American analogy might not work in this case. The whole reason they haven't been all that similar is precisely because it's a party system and one person can't make all the shots.

Plus when I was talking about 180 degree reversal, I was also talking about the civilians. Unlike the party system in America, the Seirans weren't elected and technically Cagalli was still the Chief Representative (amazingly enough).

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There's no evidence to support that claim.
Deterrence has always been a timeless strategy in foreign policy. I don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 2013-02-01, 06:47   Link #5814
monster
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Deterrence has always been a timeless strategy in foreign policy. I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm talking about the show. There's no evidence that Orb had the power to deter an attack and there's no evidence that the EA could be deterred. This is the same group of people that was willing to freely use nuclear weapons and build mobile suits like the Destroys.

To take an example from SEED: Even after Uzumi destroyed what the AF came for, the EA didn't just leave, they still went on to conquer Orb.
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Old 2013-02-01, 08:48   Link #5815
Haak
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I thought they couldn't use nuclear weapons on Earth? The the Destroy mobile suits were only found out later.

The EA went on to conquer Orb because there was no resistance and they couldn't just leave it alone to become a possible site for resistance, plus there would've been a lot of other things like data and military info that the EA could use that they might as well take. The fact is, EA didn't really get anything out of Orb except a hell of a lot of irritation so if anything the EA should've been even more deterred.
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Old 2013-02-01, 14:07   Link #5816
monster
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I thought they couldn't use nuclear weapons on Earth
They could.
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The the Destroy mobile suits were only found out later.
I'm showing that the EA had the means to overpower Orb. There's no way for Orb to deter an attack from an enemy who's capable and willing to build and use such types of weapons.

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The EA went on to conquer Orb because there was no resistance
What, did the Orb soldiers just surrendered?
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the EA should've been even more deterred.
Except Orb couldn't afford to have that expectation after what had happened in SEED. If they're willing to deny the EA's offer of an alliance, they had to be sure that they could fight off an attack from an enemy that recent history had shown to not be able to take "no" for an answer.

The Destroy incident in Berlin is an example of what the EA does to anyone who doesn't keep in line with them.
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Old 2013-02-01, 14:32   Link #5817
amaterasu4
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Wasn't it that the fall of Junius 7 heavily affected Orb? I mean we see Kira and the others hiding in shelters so I guess Orb was heavily affected by the terrorist act. The Destroy incident seemed more like something Logos would make.
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Old 2013-02-01, 14:53   Link #5818
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
They could.
Now the whole Destiny conflict looks even more ridiculous...

Did Orb have nuclear weapons too? Had nobody heard of MAD in tha story or something?

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I'm showing that the EA had the means to overpower Orb. There's no way for Orb to deter an attack from an enemy who's capable and willing to build and use such types of weapons.
That's hardly the issue. Orb would've still reasonably thought that a deterrence could work.

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What, did the Orb soldiers just surrendered?
They either evacuated or escaped on Kusanagi after the mass driver explosion.

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Except Orb couldn't afford to have that expectation after what had happened in SEED. If they're willing to deny the EA's offer of an alliance, they had to be sure that they could fight off an attack from an enemy that recent history had shown to not be able to take "no" for an answer.
More fanwanking...

And deterrence is hardly Russian roulette you know...

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The Destroy incident in Berlin is an example of what the EA does to anyone who doesn't keep in line with them.
Which happened after the treaty
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Old 2013-02-01, 15:03   Link #5819
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Did Orb have nuclear weapons too?
You need an NJC for nuclear weapons to work, which I don't believe Orb has. Also, Orb is certainly not the kind of country to use such weapons.
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That's hardly the issue. Orb would've still reasonably thought that a deterrence could work.
Based on what? What could they reasonably expect from the EA?
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They either evacuated or escaped on Kusanagi after the mass driver explosion.
The Kusanagi could never hold the full force and they had nowhere to evacuate.

Keep in mind that the evacuation mentioned in SEED was about evacuating civilians from near the battle sites to other islands in Orb. But the EA eventually took over Orb anyway.
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Deterrence is hardly Russian roulette you know...
Deterrence requires power. During the Cold War, both the US and the USSR used the threat of nuclear weapons as a deterrence. Orb had no such thing when going against the EA.
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Which happened after the treaty
I'm trying to show you the EA's character. The specific timeline doesn't really matter.
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Old 2013-02-02, 05:26   Link #5820
Haak
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
You need an NJC for nuclear weapons to work, which I don't believe Orb has. Also, Orb is certainly not the kind of country to use such weapons.
You don't have to use them. The whole point of nuclear weapons these days is that you won't need to use them.

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Based on what? What could they reasonably expect from the EA?
An EA unwilling to once again invade a country that was more trouble than it was worth? Deterrence is a default move btw. It should be something they should try first anyway unless there's reason not to.

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Kusanagi could never hold the full force and they had nowhere to evacuate.

Keep in mind that the evacuation mentioned in SEED was about evacuating civilians from near the battle sites to other islands in Orb. But the EA eventually took over Orb anyway.
What exactly is your point here? The fact still remains that there was little to no resistance from Orb after the Mass Driver destruction and they EA might as well take over to prevent resistance from forming and maybe gain valuable intel and data.

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Deterrence requires power. During the Cold War, both the US and the USSR used the threat of nuclear weapons as a deterrence. Orb had no such thing when going against the EA.
You think deterrence only requires nuclear power?

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I'm trying to show you the EA's character. The specific timeline doesn't really matter.
And I'm trying to show you Orb's character where the specific timeline does matter.
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