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Old 2013-01-31, 09:02   Link #1701
Marly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemisphere View Post
Tohka herself was suspicious of humans, believed that they were all out to kill her, and was even willing to kill Shidou during their initial encounters. Would that belief of her brand her as irredemable, considering that we never really find out the casualties involved with Tohka's prior appearances (spacequakes and all)? Yoshino was scared of every human, not just out of fear of hurting them but because of their open hostility towards her. Every time they've shown up, they receive nothing but open hostilities. Kurumi's been around longer than the both of them, and every time she's appeared she was met with aggression, "killed" countless times and was treated as an existence rejected by the world, like most seireis.

To the seirei, their rule is "kill or be killed" - the only human interaction they've had is one-sided aggression, and their only choice is to fight back or wait until they "disappear", of which they aren't even unclear as to when it happens. The only reason seireis are even recently amicable is because of Shidou and his efforts (thanks to Kotori); he's the only one who has really interacted with them in a manner different from "kill-on-sight", and gave them a different option of interacting with the world that would not lead to them being generally treated as enemies of the world.

Kurumi is what Tohka, Yoshino, and every other seirei would have ended up had Shidou not come to save them, in a sense being the logical extreme regarding how they've interacted with the world so far. To her, every human is a hostile threat, much like how Tohka and Yoshino perceived them to be prior to encountering Shidou. They've never had any other interaction to show them otherwise; when Shidou presented the alternative choice to Kurumi, that he was willing to "save" and understand her, Kurumi was visibly horrified. She even had to "kill" herself just to wipe the slate clean and stick with her goal. But considering how volume 4's epiloge showed how she was able to drain energy yet hold herself back from killing, it could possibly be a signal of change for Kurumi, even if she was just holding back in order to not get found out by Ifreet as she was still weak and in hiding at the time. And considering that her penultimate goal shows empathy for her seirei kind, there is clearly more to her character than just "I LIKE TO KILL AND I HAVE A CRAZY LAUGH TO GO WITH IT".

So yes. I really doubt that she is an irredeemable villain considering her circumstances. If anything, reducing her to generic psycho killer would just horribly flanderize her character.
I believe we have a misunderstanding here.

Being an irredeemable villain doesn't mean she has to stay as a generic psycho killer character who has no motivation or anything. Yes, you are indeed right that Kurumi is a complete antithesis to the other spirits introduced so far- and I feel that she should stay that way. A spirit that actually stays "unrescued" and even perhaps die tragically in the process without having the chance to really redeem herself. Maybe Shidou can't succeed in "rescuing" every spirit out there, and it would make more sense for Kurumi to be that particular spirit rather than becoming yet another generic harem interest character and actually become flanderized as a typical yandere love interest character. (Only to be overshadowed by other love interests and lose her place as a significant character later after her arc is done)

As you mentioned, maybe Kurumi does have a positive motivation for what she's doing. Or maybe not. I wouldn't judge Kurumi's actions in the epilogue as anything really definite at the moment- She certainly seems like a character that could simply just lie, and even if she didn't, it doesn't really justify her past actions. I don't see why she would show any empathy towards her seirei kind considering how she was almost killed by one and almost killed the other. The only remotely possible one she would show that kind of treatment is obviously to the main character, and even that seems like a rather forced writing. If someone mentally unstable like Kurumi can be "rescued" or influenced to that point just from a single act of "don't hurt her" rescue attempt, then what really prevents Shidou from doing the same to every other spirit out there? A creepy furry necrophiliac seirei, perhaps?

But yes, my point is that Kurumi should stay as an irredeemable villain character- (though not necessarily generic, since she can have whatever motivation nor does villain have to necessarily be 'evil'- just opposed to the protagonist at all times and is only in it for self-interest if otherwise) rather than losing every dignity as a character by becoming a boring yandere harem target for Shidou like every other seirei, then being forgotten eventually due to the ever-increasing number of characters, which is a very common thing to happen in any harem archetype.

Last edited by Marly; 2013-01-31 at 09:37.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:43   Link #1702
Hemisphere
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Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, given the author's writing style, such a development seems highly unlikely. I've complained about this before (and just decided to take this in stride after I did so), but whenever the seireis join Shidou's harem, their characterizations, appearance and importance take heavy hits. It's one of my biggest issue with this series.

A development like the one you proposed would be interesting, I suppose (though it seems like it would be headed for some heavy-handed drama if it did), but considering the tone of the series and the author's writing style, highly unlikely.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:58   Link #1703
Marly
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Originally Posted by Hemisphere View Post
Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, given the author's writing style, such a development seems highly unlikely. I've complained about this before (and just decided to take this in stride after I did so), but whenever the seireis join Shidou's harem, their characterizations, appearance and importance take heavy hits. It's one of my biggest issue with this series.

A development like the one you proposed would be interesting, I suppose (though it seems like it would be headed for some heavy-handed drama if it did), but considering the tone of the series and the author's writing style, highly unlikely.
Characterizations taking hits are not just exclusive to this series, but to the entire harem archetype as a whole- I feel like it's a rather lazy (and bad) form of writing, and that is precisely why I just don't understand when people post here claiming they want Kurumi to be part of it, when it would actually truly "kill" her as a character more than anything.

I feel like the development I proposed would be an improvement for the series- Shidou will maybe develop as a character and then learn that not everyone can be "rescued," as he expressed rather confidently to Kurumi. Then eventually it could build up to him dealing with the losses of other seireis later in the series like Yoshino, or even Tohka and Kotori. It leads to heavy drama, sure, but I would honestly prefer some sort of possibility that a significant character CAN die in this series.

Mainly it just bothered me that people just unconditionally want a character to be a part of Shidou's harem. It is truly a shame that the author is not the type that would take this direction of writing.
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Old 2013-01-31, 10:19   Link #1704
Hemisphere
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It's a general problem present in Japanese fiction/fantasy materials, as far as I've noticed. Whenever they impose archetypes/trends for the sake of catering/pandering to the people who like them, most if not all characterization goes out the window. It applies as much to harem captures as it does to "tsundere" characters, "imouto" characters, and the like and so on and so forth. Real characterization is rather hard to find nowadays, and by real I mean fluent, consistent, believable character manifestation.

If anyone is close to dying in this series, it would probably be Mana, though her significance is sorely lacking.

As for people wanting unconditionally rooting for harem captures...self-insertion in the shoes of Shidou, perhaps? Favoritism? If I recall there have been several pages in this thread before about people "arguing" (to put it lightly) over their favorite "characters", with the reasons ranging from design fascination to visual aesthetics.

If anything, this series is schizophrenic in its tone and premise. The whole issue of seireis being a threat to the world and all implies a certain degree of gravitas...and then you see that most of the content are love comedies and supposed parodies (played straight) of dating games and such. This is mostly why I take to reading DAL with a huge cargoboat load of salt. It's a fun light read, really, but I would suggest against looking forwards to anything deeper than that.
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Old 2013-01-31, 10:36   Link #1705
Marly
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Yeah, actual characterizations are put aside for stock characterizations like the one you've mentioned, which is, as I said, just lazy. If the author can't think of anything, they'll just use whatever was popular in the other series, recycle it, and hope it gets fans. I still do feel that a character becoming part of a harem is the worst fate a character can suffer- Not only do they usually lose most of their significance in the story, but they also lose all their dignity as a character by being reduced to a nobody that will not even get back the supposed love since the main character will doubtlessly choose the female lead. It robs the character of a dignified ending, and death of that character would've been much preferable.

And yes, self-insert is the only possible reason I see people wanting Shidou to get all the harem captures. I really would not be surprised if this series was nowhere as popular as it is if it wasn't for the art, actually. Most people probably ended up here through the artist's works, since she was involved in yet another pandering-heavy series that is Neptunia.

I initially took interest because the premise was interesting. I liked The World Only God Knows, and since this series had a similar premise (but this had the potential to be possibly more fun) I really wanted this series to be good. Though until the author does something drastic, I suppose it will stay a wishful thinking.
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Old 2013-01-31, 17:55   Link #1706
sapper
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Dudes really with the essay long posts if you don't like the series GTFO and stop complaining about what should be done and what shouldn't be done Jesus Christ
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Old 2013-01-31, 20:05   Link #1707
xBakaChanx
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IMO DaL belongs under the romantic comedy genre, and you are trying to put DaL into some a more serious-shounen like genre, and judging the series to be good or bad based on that perspective. It would certainly be interesting if the author add more drama or some deep realization to the story, but I won't hope for so much if I were you.
Finally, I would disagree with you on the whole "main character will doubtlessly choose the female lead thing" as well as the "character lose their personality once they enter into a harem", there had been series in the past where that doesn't happen, though in DaL I would doubt that.
Long story short - don't think too deeply about this, this is a romantic comedy after all.
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Old 2013-01-31, 20:31   Link #1708
RapidPotential
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapper View Post
Dudes really with the essay long posts if you don't like the series GTFO and stop complaining about what should be done and what shouldn't be done Jesus Christ
I don't see why you would take offence to such discussion, because it is such discussion that indicates interest in the series. Let others have their own opinions about the works; it breeds useful food for thought and the thread won't be buried under the other updated ones.
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Old 2013-01-31, 22:58   Link #1709
sapper
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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
I don't see why you would take offence to such discussion, because it is such discussion that indicates interest in the series. Let others have their own opinions about the works; it breeds useful food for thought and the thread won't be buried under the other updated ones.
It just seems to me that they want DaL to be something it clearly won't become. I mean I notice their points like characters changing but I don't mind because its a harem genre it's to be expected they do fall in love after all and that will change people even in real life and so you have to give the author some slack like the other guy said its a romantic comedy harem itdoes have its fight scenes which are good and its deep emotional parts but its not gonna go as in depth as you want it that's all I'm saying
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Old 2013-02-01, 00:45   Link #1710
Hemisphere
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"They"? Please. Funny, I mentioned several times beforehand that I find this series light and entertaining, and I still do. Just because I am aware of a series' shortcomings doesn't mean that I fervently desire for it to be something else entirely.

Disturbing how a civil discussion about this series suddenly gets turned into an "us versus them" argument with a full-blown persecution complex in the works. "Those guys are discussing the faults of this series, omg they must clearly hate this! Quick, grab your pitchforks and torches, we must drive them away from our utopia!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by xBakaChanx View Post
I would put my bet on new seirei intervening midway through the story in vol 7 ~
If the author continues the trend of new seirei per volume, most likely!
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Old 2013-02-01, 03:43   Link #1711
Marly
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Originally Posted by xBakaChanx View Post
IMO DaL belongs under the romantic comedy genre, and you are trying to put DaL into some a more serious-shounen like genre, and judging the series to be good or bad based on that perspective. ... don't think too deeply about this, this is a romantic comedy after all.
No, I'm judging the series from the perspective of a hybrid between actual drama/action and harem, which is what this series is. It's most certainly not a pure romantic comedy genre, which for some reason you people think this is, and it's pretty obvious why it is not so. I wouldn't care about any possible character development (and vice versa) in a comedy genre, because there wouldn't be one.

That being said, why shouldn't it go more in depth? Why should the characters in this series stay shallow and dry like every other character in a typical harem series? Frankly, to me at least, all that means is that the characters will be very forgettable, and the series completely unmemorable. Typical happy ending harem where "everyone wins" IS a poor writing, as it's only designed to pander to fans of every character, and that's why some authors these days are actually afraid to kill off certain characters due to their fanbase's possible reaction. I think this series could be good because the premise has potential to be good, and I was merely discussing with Hemisphere about what could improve this series while pointing out its obvious flaws as a literature.

Honestly, I'm more baffled as much as Hemisphere is at Mr. Sapper's sudden outrage at a civil discussion about a series' plot and character development. It's almost as if the only thing allowed in this thread in his eyes is commenting about how kawaii the girls are, which is a rather tragic thing. Then again, I suppose this outcome was expected.
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Old 2013-02-01, 04:53   Link #1712
imbuement
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Dear Hemisphere and Marly.
I can recognize you guys's seriousness about this series, it's a good supporting. I just hope you guys stop try "mind reading" and judge other people in topic.
Let's us reconcile!
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Old 2013-02-01, 07:57   Link #1713
RapidPotential
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As Hemisphere and Marly have said, this series does need more discussion than simply comments about the characters and I do not see why anyone should be ticked off by mere statements that the author will unlikely ever see. I get where you people are coming from with the "judgment of flaws and what it should be instead of what it is not" argument but stating such only indicates interest and hope that as a literary work, it will perhaps improve in that direction.

I in fact, am not a fan of threads where there's a lot of love for the characters but not the series as a whole, because although those are generally accepted part of threads like this, there should also be meaningful discussion about the series direction, such that interest in the series is kept alive (in this forum at least). Do note that even if people state their dislikes about a series, it does not simply mean that they are unhappy about it. To be a fan of any series, you do not have to simply accept all the flaws that the story has on its own; if you like it, you'll only want it to be better so that more people will come to appreciate it!

Discussions can be ignored by uninterested parties to be frank; no need to blow the matter out of proportion. Let's all get along, shall we?
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Old 2013-02-01, 13:30   Link #1714
sapper
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Ok I'd like to clear up my previous comments I was not ticked off I was just simply stating that why should we complain about how deep the depth goes? Obviously the author is going into depth with all the characters as well as the story but still of course the story is gonna have some tweaks in it after all it still has the aspect of a romantic comedy but at least he's going into more depth with things like DEM and the spirits. Also some may find a harem ending "bad writing" but what's so bad about it? Love is an extremely crucial factor both in real life and in anime idk about y'all but I'd rather see everyone be happy instead of just one girl. I love this series just the way it is idk about y'all. But I end my statements here and I will reconcile with y'all.
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Old 2013-02-01, 17:24   Link #1715
Athena
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Originally Posted by sapper View Post
Ok I'd like to clear up my previous comments I was not ticked off I was just simply stating that why should we complain about how deep the depth goes? Obviously the author is going into depth with all the characters as well as the story but still of course the story is gonna have some tweaks in it after all it still has the aspect of a romantic comedy but at least he's going into more depth with things like DEM and the spirits. Also some may find a harem ending "bad writing" but what's so bad about it? Love is an extremely crucial factor both in real life and in anime idk about y'all but I'd rather see everyone be happy instead of just one girl. I love this series just the way it is idk about y'all. But I end my statements here and I will reconcile with y'all.
I personally find it to be extremely unrealistic for a man to not favor a girl over another. The thing is harem ending can't close a story, in my opinion. It's as if the author simply decided that it was too much of a hassle to decide on the ending or something.

But I don't think DaL will have a harem ending. Either Shidou will date someone who will make real progress, or he'll simply not date anyone at all. Rare are those stories that actually get a harem ending. As far as I read, Shidou will probably end up with Origami/Tohka though.

And there's still the possibility that spirits disappear at the end of the story.
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Old 2013-02-01, 19:17   Link #1716
sapper
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How? There're people in real life who love more than one person. Love can't be confined to just one person all the time and IMO a harem ending is one where everybody wins the harems which nd in one girl always has a backblast on the other girls which hits me right in the heart so I guess we're opposites on endings lol
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Old 2013-02-02, 05:08   Link #1717
Hemisphere
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Marly:

Spoiler:


Posting in this manner so I can avoid I offending those who cannot seem to make distinctions between what they can or cannot agree with, much less ignore.
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Old 2013-02-02, 06:01   Link #1718
Kleeyook
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I don't think Kurumi is that bad. It's just that we're humans, and she's killing us. The victims portrayed so far are indeed jerks (but I don't think they're too irredeemable and deserve to die like that) and Kurumi isn't much different. Would you say someone who kill a cat to deserve death as punishment?

I bet you'll argue with things like humans are sentient, but animals and cattle we kill are too...

Since the spirits caused too much trouble to humans, it's natural for humans to get rid of them. But spirits aren't Jesus who'd accept their fate (totally for human's sake) easily and retaliated. Casualties is very normal, they'd be pissed at how humans ar biassed towards life too.

And at least she kind of has a noble goal... like what villains are kind of right have.
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:33   Link #1719
Marly
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Hemisphere:

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena
And there's still the possibility that spirits disappear at the end of the story.
I actually would really like this to be the case, as it also seems like it's being built up to such due to a certain character's motives, from what I've read in this thread.
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Old 2013-02-03, 00:07   Link #1720
Athena
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Originally Posted by sapper View Post
How? There're people in real life who love more than one person. Love can't be confined to just one person all the time and IMO a harem ending is one where everybody wins the harems which nd in one girl always has a backblast on the other girls which hits me right in the heart so I guess we're opposites on endings lol
It's purely idealistic. And IMO, not anyone would win in a harem. There will be jealousy, envy and drama if you consider it, even though LNs picture them in a comical angle.

Now, time to get myself to continue to read volume 2...
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