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Old 2013-01-30, 18:58   Link #2201
Qilin
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Pretty cool episode. I'm not particularly impressed to be honest, but it did the trick capturing my attention. For one thing, we actually have a decent explanation of Seiko's mahjong power now. My concern here is how bad Shiraitodai is looking right now, especially after all the hype. But eh, it's for the sake of drama, I guess. Their secret weapon hasn't been released yet, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
I'm of two minds on the limit/bondage/key ability of those two girls. On the one hand, its certainly pretty creative and intricate and allows for some rather engaging bits of animation. OTOH, part of me can't help but think "Wow, they're really having to dig deep to come up with new mahjong superpowers at this point, aren't they?"
I kinda agree with you there. The Achiga mahjong powers seem somewhat crazier and more ridiculously specialized that the ones you'd find in the main series. I'm talking here particularly about Toki's precognition, Takami's Harvest Time, and the Mairu x Himeko combo. But well, I guess it's a matter of suspending disbelief for the sake of enjoyment. I love this show regardless.
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Old 2013-01-30, 20:14   Link #2202
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I kinda agree with you there. The Achiga mahjong powers seem somewhat crazier and more ridiculously specialized that the ones you'd find in the main series. I'm talking here particularly about Toki's precognition, Takami's Harvest Time, and the Mairu x Himeko combo. But well, I guess it's a matter of suspending disbelief for the sake of enjoyment. I love this show regardless.
The powers themselves I'm gladly willing to suspend disbelief for. Ultimately, this show is to serious mahjong what the WWE is to amateur wrestling, and that's much of what I love about the show.

I'll tell you what I find pretty funny though.

It's this image I now have in my mind of Teru and friends pouring over Mairu and Himeko's play records, somehow noticing this highly intricate pattern of "When Mairu does A, B, or C in one match, Himeko tends to do F, G, or H in the next match", and then them just casually and confidently chalking it up to a mahjong superpower instead of, you know, random chance.


You know, it honestly makes me sympathize more with Nodoka. This sort of thing would probably drive me nuts too if I was her.

"You people talk about mahjong like you were some crazed conspiracy theorists! Everything is some carefully calibrated magical superpower to you, isn't it? Does chance even exist in your world?!"

And the sad thing for Nodoka is that the conspiracy theorists are almost always right! For somebody who gets by on pure skill, practice, effort, and good mahjong fundamentals, it must be pretty infuriating at times.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:00   Link #2203
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... then them just casually and confidently chalking it up to a mahjong superpower instead of, you know, random chance.
If you haven't noticed, Sumire casually mentions that Teru used her mirror ability to figure out how the Shindouji combination worked, and NO ONE calls her out on how ridiculous this is (forming strategies from hints taken from mahjong superpowers). If Nodoka was there, she'd freak out, as it would show that she's an outlier, and the existence of said lesbian hax is actually an ACCEPTED part of mainstream competitive mahjong.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:07   Link #2204
Requiem-x
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
If you haven't noticed, Sumire casually mentions that Teru used her mirror ability to figure out how the Shindouji combination worked, and NO ONE calls her out on how ridiculous this is (forming strategies from hints taken from mahjong superpowers). If Nodoka was there, she'd freak out, as it would show that she's an outlier, and the existence of said lesbian hax is actually an ACCEPTED part of mainstream competitive mahjong.
And then there's the fact Kojaki, one of the best players IN THE WORLD, mentions Teru's mirror and how it looks into your soul like it's just a knack of hers, and that was her quoting other pros.

I don't feel bad for Nodoka, though, because I don't like her. Besides, you don't see Yumi, Hiroe or Hisa whining about any powers.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:11   Link #2205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
If you haven't noticed, Sumire casually mentions that Teru used her mirror ability to figure out how the Shindouji combination worked, and NO ONE calls her out on how ridiculous this is (forming strategies from hints taken from mahjong superpowers). If Nodoka was there, she'd freak out, as it would show that she's an outlier, and the existence of said lesbian hax is actually an ACCEPTED part of mainstream competitive mahjong.
Well, that's what's funny about it. That this is the default position that almost everybody seems to take in Saki-verse. Random chance is just completely dismissed out of hand, and patterns are always assumed to indicate something magical/superpowerful.

In fairness to Teru's teammates, though, I'd probably be pretty keen on accepting almost anything that Teru said about mahjong. Her saying something about mahjong is like a 17 year old Wayne Gretzky saying something about hockey, or a 17 year old Michael Jordan saying something about basketball. No matter how crazy it may sound, when it comes from a person that good in the sport, you have to take it seriously.


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Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post

I don't feel bad for Nodoka, though, because I don't like her.
Why don't you like her? Nodoka is a good and likeable character, imo.


Quote:
Besides, you don't see Yumi, Hiroe or Hisa whining about any powers.
Yumi and Hisa are team leaders, or at least team strategists. They're team-centric, and hence value these powers as something that could potentially benefit their teams. They scout and recruit people with those powers (for Yumi, this is Stealth Momo; for Hisa, this is Saki).

Nodoka is traditionally a more singles-oriented player. For her, the idea of these superpowers are naturally upsetting because it would put her at an arguably unfair disadvantage.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:33   Link #2206
Requiem-x
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why don't you like her? Nodoka is a good and likeable character, imo.
At first it was because of the way she totally dissed Momo in the first season (seeing her and Yumi together in achiga really helped with that, though), but then I noticed she isn't the ost exciting character, which is probably because she's literally supposed to play like a machine, and that doesn't make you particularly likable when everyone else in the table is fighting with their soul on their sleeve or having the time of their life. Also, and I hadn't noticed this until recently, but she hasn't had a really particularly memorble moment during a game so far, like FunaQ going rape mode (there are more examples, but I'd be spoiling the manga and the upcoming s2, so hush). Also, she's a hypocrite, or did you forget her girlfriend can play any table like the phantom of the opera plays the organ?


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Nodoka is traditionally a more singles-oriented player. For her, the idea of these superpowers are naturally upsetting because it would put her at an arguably unfair disadvantage.
It's not that the powers annoy her, she doesn't recognize their existance, and there's no reason behind that as far as I know. And she's ALWAYS been like that.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:34   Link #2207
Myssa Rei
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Also I think the fact that all of Teru's teammates are ability-users (yes, I consider Sumire to be this as well) makes Teru's matter-of-factly revelations about the playstyles of their opponents that she "learned" easier to believe.
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Old 2013-01-30, 21:50   Link #2208
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Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
At first it was because of the way she totally dissed Momo in the first season
But that worked for Nodoka. It was the smart thing for her to do. So I don't see any reason to hold it against her.


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(seeing her and Yumi together in achiga really helped with that, though), but then I noticed she isn't the most exciting character, which is probably because she's literally supposed to play like a machine, and that doesn't make you particularly likable when everyone else in the table is fighting with their soul on their sleeve or having the time of their life.
Was Teru fighting with her soul on her sleeve or having the time of her life? I certainly didn't get that impression from Teru's big match in Achiga-hen.

Teru was cool as a cucumber, just like Nodoka tends to be.

Honestly, I like the calm professionalism of characters like Teru and Nodoka. I wouldn't want every Saki character to be like that, of course, but it can be nice for a change and a welcomed contrast.

In any event, most of the reason I like Nodoka has little to do with her mahjong-playing. Nodoka and Saki have a lot of great moments together, imo.


Quote:
Also, she's a hypocrite, or did you forget her girlfriend can play any table like the phantom of the opera plays the organ?
How does that make Nodoka a hypocrite? Nodoka probably just thinks that Saki is a great mahjong player, period. She probably thinks that Saki doesn't have magical luck so much as Saki's success rises and falls on the bases of how confident Saki is in a specific moment (which, in fairness to Nodoka, is generally true of Saki).


Quote:
It's not that the powers annoy her, she doesn't recognize their existance, and there's no reason behind that as far as I know.
The idea of the powers annoy her, and that's partly why she doesn't believe in them. If other mahjong players have these powers, then all the skill and training in the world may come to naught when you go up against one of these magical girls of mahjong who can simply hax her way to victory. It shouldn't be hard to see why that might bother a serious mahjong competitor who doesn't have such powers.
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:02   Link #2209
ZGMF-X10A
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wow episode 14 is pretty interesting. Arata is on the roll going to win it for Harue. Next episode is going to be epic. Shizuno wants to go to the finals to meet Nadoka, Koromo said that Shizuno is trouble and she'll is going to be fired up after meeting Nadoka. Hemeko has so many keys so she'll at least be some competition and she's also an ace. The other two schools look pretty powerful as well. can't wait to see what happens.

The background music was amazing too. Love all the music in saki
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:07   Link #2210
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The idea of the powers annoy her, and that's partly why she doesn't believe in them. If other mahjong players have these powers, then all the skill and training in the world may come to naught when you go up against one of these magical girls of mahjong who can simply hax her way to victory. It shouldn't be hard to see why that might bother a serious mahjong competitor who doesn't have such powers.
I think this is why the setup for the current year's tournament seems so fishy to many long-time observers of the sport, especially the pros (remember how Fujita comments as much in the first series), as it seems to have been set up to filter out and find the girls with those probability bending skills. It actually makes school like Himematsu stand out (Masae's two daughters Hiroe and Kinue don't have powers for example), given their full skill-based strategies.

Also, Requiem is right in a way -- when Kokaji, who was at one point the WORLD NUMBER TWO, acknowledges mahjong superpowers, then one seriously wonders about Nodoka's willful disbelief about them.
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:27   Link #2211
Requiem-x
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But that worked for Nodoka. It was the smart thing for her to do. So I don't see any reason to hold it against her.
It was a personal bias, I admit, which is why I'm glad achiga helped me overcome it.


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In any event, most of the reason I like Nodoka has little to do with her mahjong-playing. Nodoka and Saki have a lot of great moments together, imo.
Ok, sure, that is a good thing going on for her. I'm certainly not watching it just for the mahjong either.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How does that make Nodoka a hypocrite? Nodoka probably just thinks that Saki is a great mahjong player, period. She probably thinks that Saki doesn't have magical luck so much as Saki's success rises and falls on the bases of how confident Saki is in a specific moment (which, in fairness to Nodoka, is generally true of Saki).
Or she's just blinded by her slender bare legs, which, let's accept it, it's a real possibility in the sakiverse But yeah, that is a good point. Silly Saki and her unstable hax.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The idea of the powers annoy her, and that's partly why she doesn't believe in them. If other mahjong players have these powers, then all the skill and training in the world may come to naught when you go up against one of these magical girls of mahjong who can simply hax her way to victory. It shouldn't be hard to see why that might bother a serious mahjong competitor who doesn't have such powers.
Either you're overthinking this a little or I don't remember anythng from the anime's first half (it could honestly be either). To me Nodoka not liking the occult is like Shizu being energetic as hell, it's just their thing and there's no big reason behind it. The only time I've seen Nodoka genuinely upset with a player is back at the beginning with Saki and her +/- 0 deal, and that was't because she was being unfairly strong, but because she wasn't playing with her full strenght.

P.S: I'd love seeing Nodoka trying to deny all that went down in the match against Teru, where three hax powers had to combine, and two of them used differently from the usual just to stop her.

Also, we better stop here. I may not like Nodoka, but I dislike going into angry rants about her much less, especially when there's wireless lesbian sex to enjoy.
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Old 2013-01-30, 22:50   Link #2212
Snuffle
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If there's one thing I would like to know -- how did THAT power develop?
Yuri + Bondage. What else is there needed to know?
Since Mairu is the one getting locked up, does that mean Himeko wears the pants despite looking more gentle and girly?
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Old 2013-01-30, 23:42   Link #2213
night_sentinel
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I was wondering where you guys went...
Silly me, this thread was still alive after all. I thought it was nuked when I couldn't find it in the Current Series section.

Anyway, I really liked the new episode. Even if I find the manga version personally better in retaining the intensity of the match, watching Himeko moan and gasp every time Marui makes a bind is so WORTH IT.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, that's what's funny about it. That this is the default position that almost everybody seems to take in Saki-verse. Random chance is just completely dismissed out of hand, and patterns are always assumed to indicate something magical/superpowerful.
I'm seriously in the camp that there is no such thing as random chance in the Saki-verse. Even outside the mahjong matches, I believe that their superpowers influence things for them.

For example. I have always looked at Kiyosumi Mahjong Club as the quintessential Hisa hell wait. The best one she has made in the series.
Kiyosumi winning the nationals is a tall order. It doesn't even have a mahjong club when Hisa joined. Contrast this to Kazekoshi which is a better wait. But, just like her waits if Hisa has chosen the better option, we know that she will not win. It was only by choosing Kiyosumi (the hell wait) that she has a chance of winning at all.
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Old 2013-01-31, 01:11   Link #2214
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Yuri + Bondage. What else is there needed to know?
Since Mairu is the one getting locked up, does that mean Himeko wears the pants despite looking more gentle and girly?
Well. I would like to see the practice sessions.

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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
I'm seriously in the camp that there is no such thing as random chance in the Saki-verse. Even outside the mahjong matches, I believe that their superpowers influence things for them.
Indeed.

Instead...

The entire Saki story features personified aspects of mahjong, and then they are pitted against each other. The classic example was Saki's Rinshan vs Koromoe's Haitei. So, anyone demanding the randomness element in the Saki-verse is actual being unreasonable. After all, this IS fiction.

Nevertheless, we can all agree - everything that happens in the Saki-verse pertaining to the mahjong, functions within the rules of the game. It's just that - if you wish to achieve the same things in the game -- you might as well dream about it.
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Old 2013-01-31, 04:34   Link #2215
teja208
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Also I think the fact that all of Teru's teammates are ability-users (yes, I consider Sumire to be this as well) makes Teru's matter-of-factly revelations about the playstyles of their opponents that she "learned" easier to believe.
Actually, I also find it funny how all of Shiraitodai's new recruits have mahjong superpowers. I can picture Teru using her mirror during the screening process.

@Requiem-x - I sometime wonder whether Teru's Ea will be powerful enough to short circuit Robocchi. Who knows, it might actually happen in the individual.

@RRR - Not a manga spoiler, but you know I was under the impression that every single player in the national (even ones without superpowers) seems to be expecting Rinshan Kaihou from Saki every time she kans.

Oh and one more thing if that's ok for you, I was hoping to hear about which characters in this episode's fourth match impressed you the most RRR.
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Old 2013-01-31, 07:23   Link #2216
night_sentinel
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You know watching the matches in Achiga-hen is giving me an increased appreciation for the old cast. Every team in the Nagano finals can really do well in the nationals. Its quite nice considering in other anime there is a sorting algorithm of strength involved - the boss of last season is usually weaker than the regular opponents next time. I'm glad that this hasn't happened to Saki.

This is specially evident in Koromo. She's still pretty much a monster player and it would be quite rare to see someone who will match her even the current tournament. She's also a very nice meter stick for the power of other players.

Beside that, I've just realized that Koromo's strongest was only shown to a wide audience during this year's prefecture tournament. And yet in the previous nationals , even when she is not playing at full power she was still seen as a monster class player. That is quite amazing because there is a great amount of evidence that Koromo's no tenpai hell is only active at the night of the full moon. And in my opinion, the no tenpai hell is Koromo's strongest power.

Here is proof:

Link

Sorry for the out link. But it is very image heavy.

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2013-01-31 at 07:41.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:11   Link #2217
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post

Oh and one more thing if that's ok for you, I was hoping to hear about which characters in this episode's fourth match impressed you the most RRR.
Well, like I wrote before, I really liked how well-balanced the fourth match was. Each character was given a chance to shine, and nobody backed down entirely from the hax abilities of her competitors (although the Shiraitodai representative did seem awfully rattled to me near the end - Makes me think of the classic powerful antagonist who is shocked that the underdog hero can actually hang with him in battle ).

That being said, if I had to pick just one girl from the match that really impressed me...

I should preface this by saying that my familiarity with mahjong is actually a bit slim. For examples, I don't exactly understand how this Mairu/Himeko link-up works, except for the basic "Mairu strictly limits her avenues of victory -> If she wins anyway, Himeko then gets a magical "key to victory!" that makes her likelihood of winning much greater for the same hand in Himeko's next match; OTOH, if Mairu loses, that makes Himeko more likely to lose the same hand in Himeko's next match."

Am I basically right there?

If so, then the girl who impressed me the most was Mairu. From what I can gather, she takes these reckless long shots to benefit Himeko later on... and then she delivers on them! That's brash, man. That's like a pro baseball player pointing at the outfield just before he hits a homerun! Or a hockey player pointing at the net just before he scores a goal.
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Old 2013-01-31, 09:38   Link #2218
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If she wins anyway, Himeko then gets a magical "key to victory!" that makes her likelihood of winning much greater for the same hand in Himeko's next match; OTOH, if Mairu loses, that makes Himeko more likely to lose the same hand in Himeko's next match."
Close, but there's still the fact that the hand that Himeko will get will be worth about twice as much as the one that Mairu wins (that's the simplest explanation I can give without going into han values). So it's even stronger than you understand, perhaps even ridiculously so.
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Old 2013-02-01, 01:12   Link #2219
Archaeon
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Why is this show is so TANOSHII!

The first half of Achiga is poor with awful pacing but the second half/semi final really make up for it.

When is the next episode coming out?
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Old 2013-02-01, 01:51   Link #2220
The Green One
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Toward the end of Feb IIRC.
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