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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 25 36.76%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 35.29%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 22.06%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 5.88%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-02, 14:01   Link #81
warita
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
His plans have shown that he wants more violence, more panic, but not for any reason other than that he considers it 'normal.'
I dont think thats what he considers normal. I do think his idea of normal is the same and yours and mine, and he has 2 main reasons, why he wishes the old world order to come back:

1. he is disgusted by what the system does to people and how people can turn so idiotic and he probably thinks, that if they act like sheep, they can just as well be treated as sheep.

2. He is the kind of person, who feels more suited for a world that is not this stable, controlled and BORING. He feels that in the old system, he would be more free to do "things".... not that it stops him from doing them now, as we see.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:02   Link #82
Vicious108
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Personally I believe labelling Makishima as the kind of antagonist whose only motivation is seeking entertainment is doing a great disservice to the character, and I know that I for one wouldn't be enjoying him as much if I felt that was all he amounted to. Not that "in it for the lulz" antagonists can't be fun, mind you, and to a certain extent I feel that Che Gu Seung might still fit that description somewhat (more so than Makishima anyway), but with Makishima I definitely get the feeling that he is someone who genuinely cares about the meaning behind his actions. I would go so far as to say that his end goal is precisely that - to restore meaning to people's lives, something he believes can only happen when they act based on their own will (and not Sybil's).

I agree with totoum that his "If there's something beyond the destruction, that's good. If there isn't, then I'll accept it" line actually reinforces the idea that Makishima genuinely cares, and if we go back to previous episodes, it's not the first time he's said something like that. For example, when Senguuji asked him if Rikako's motive for her crimes was revenge, Makishima's reply was "Well, I don't know. I hope she finds some meaning beyond revenge, though."

The way I see it, that is exactly the same mindset he now holds towards this new "project"/operation of his. He cannot be certain that it will happen, but he does hope that what may seem like base destruction and wanton murder on the surface will come to bear meaningful fruit. Of course, if it doesn't, he will accept that outcome as well. That outlook and attitude of his actually resembles Akane's ability to accept the reality of things and not be brought down by setbacks and may be yet another hint to her "condition" not being so different from Makishima's.

At the same time, and this facet of the character I'm not as confident about, but it is nonetheless something I see as a possibility, I would say that, as I mentioned earlier, this quest is also one of soul-searching for Makishima. And I think that if there's a flaw or weakness to be found in his otherwise impeccable character (not morally, of course), it would be that he's not so certain that he himself possesses what he said he wants to see in episode 11 - the radiance/splendor of people's souls. His words then were "I want to check and see if it really is precious." But if he himself possessed it, he wouldn't need to resort to people like Rikako and Senguuji and could have gotten his answer by pulling off those self-expressive crimes himself. But he doesn't, and that's why he constantly gives others the means to express themselves and why he observes them so intently - he's looking for that something which he feels he himself lacks and which he believes people in general have lost under Sybil's governance.

The way I see it, many of his lines seem to indicate that, for all his claims of being a normal person, he's someone who's seeking first and foremost to understand himself (but then again isn't that quite normal as well?) and, to borrow the words of another of Gen's works, to find the shape of his own soul. For example, his "I've been wondering about it since my childhood" when Akane expressed disbelief at his pure white Psycho-Pass, or his lines in this episode about trying to think about why he reacts the way he does to the books he reads and that he considers them to be a tool to adjust your senses, i.e. a key to understanding himself.

And that's what I think he gets out of the things he does on a personal level. He's doing what he believes is the right thing to do (restoring people's free wills and consequently restoring meaning and value to their lives), but at the same time his efforts and the allies and targets he chooses are all a means for for him juxtapose himself with others and thus come to find and understand himself. Because he lacks something himself (and that may be related to his connection to Sybil's Bureau Chief), he can only achieve that through the observation of those around him, and I get the feeling that he believes Kougami will likely be the one to contribute the most to that end, which is why it also wouldn't surprise me if his number one priority here was to have that potentially meaningful and enlightening confrontation with him.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:10   Link #83
Dengar
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...Why would there be a SDF? There's nothing to defend against. Well, at least there wasn't before this point in time.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:11   Link #84
mechalord
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Shogo is a Batman/DC villain. Long winded, hyper intelligent anarchist sort.

He wants to tear down the system. He employs monsters and demons among the humans because they're the only ones capable and willing of fighting the system due to their lack of restraint and violent inclination.

Everyone else is comfortable, the ones the system rewards will not fight. So he recruited psychopaths as his officers and those marginalized by the Sibyl system as his foot soldiers.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:14   Link #85
mechalord
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
...Why would there be a SDF? There's nothing to defend against. Well, at least there wasn't before this point in time.
The Sibyl system is only 20-30 years old. There should still be an outside world. Shogo's sidekick is a foreigner.

Where does the story take place?

If the Sibyl system is not implemented in other parts, they would still find that they need to defend themselves from foreign aggressors.

Where is the national government? No backup? Really?
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:25   Link #86
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....Maybe different nations have no reason to attack eachother?
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:46   Link #87
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Vicious108 View Post
Personally I believe labelling Makishima as the kind of antagonist whose only motivation is seeking entertainment is doing a great disservice to the character, and I know that I for one wouldn't be enjoying him as much if I felt that was all he amounted to. Not that "in it for the lulz" antagonists can't be fun, mind you, and to a certain extent I feel that Che Gu Seung might still fit that description somewhat (more so than Makishima anyway), but with Makishima I definitely get the feeling that he is someone who genuinely cares about the meaning behind his actions.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Like mechalord, I see Makishima as being a little similar to the Joker from Batman - there is a greater point to his actions (think Dark Knight Batman), but his personal desires are also a factor. I think the 'fun' of an unstable world is a factor, and he also garners enjoyment from exposing the flaws in the 'perfect' system. I definitely don't see him as a twisted anti-hero. His worldview just happens to coincide in some ways with a revolutionary viewpoint in escaping the dystopia he was born into.

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Originally Posted by warita View Post
I dont think thats what he considers normal. I do think his idea of normal is the same and yours and mine, and he has 2 main reasons, why he wishes the old world order to come back:

1. he is disgusted by what the system does to people and how people can turn so idiotic and he probably thinks, that if they act like sheep, they can just as well be treated as sheep.

2. He is the kind of person, who feels more suited for a world that is not this stable, controlled and BORING. He feels that in the old system, he would be more free to do "things".... not that it stops him from doing them now, as we see.
Perhaps. I feel like he's looking back more at the anarchy and turmoil of human history than the stability of modern western nations (not as stable as Sybil, but far less domineering as well). This may be something that is elaborated on in future episodes.
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:02   Link #88
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Like mechalord, I see Makishima as being a little similar to the Joker from Batman - there is a greater point to his actions (think Dark Knight Batman), but his personal desires are also a factor. I think the 'fun' of an unstable world is a factor, and he also garners enjoyment from exposing the flaws in the 'perfect' system. I definitely don't see him as a twisted anti-hero. His worldview just happens to coincide in some ways with a revolutionary viewpoint in escaping the dystopia he was born into.
But you said you believe he's "just out to have fun", so basically you see the "greater point to his actions" as a mere coincidence? Because that's where I disagree and what I meant when I said such a view was doing a disservice to his character. The way I see it, the greater point to his actions is very much intentional and key to his character and I doubt he would even bother with them if all they amounted to in his eyes was temporary entertainment. And though said entertainment is definitely something he takes into consideration (after all he discards pawns who have become boring and claims to believe Kougami will be very entertaining), I would say that even his personal desires go beyond simply enjoying himself.

But of course that's up in air still, so perhaps more definitive discussion on this is better left for future episodes.
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:18   Link #89
ChainLegacy
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But you said you believe he's "just out to have fun", so basically you see the "greater point to his actions" as a mere coincidence? Because that's where I disagree and what I meant when I said such a view was doing a disservice to his character. The way I see it, the greater point to his actions is very much intentional and key to his character and I doubt he would even bother with them if all they amounted to in his eyes was temporary entertainment. And though said entertainment is definitely something he takes into consideration (after all he discards pawns who have become boring and claims to believe Kougami will be very entertaining), I would say that even his personal desires go beyond simply enjoying himself.

But of course that's up in air still, so perhaps more definitive discussion on this is better left for future episodes.
Well, yes, you could say they're a coincidence. Basically, I do think he has these revolutionary, world-shaking goals, but they seem to be closely related to his desire for 'chaotic fun.' He has an interest in the philosophy behind his actions and I think perhaps even finds some irony in his own ways of going about things - heroic in a sense, but the means are deadly and dangerous; he's mostly trying to shake things up because he finds that kind of world better, more normal, and more enjoyable. I don't see any type of sacrifice or heroism on his part.

And yes, you're right, we don't necessarily know where his character will lead to in future episodes. My viewpoint could be completely contradicted. Then again, it could always be kind of ambiguous and open for interpretation.
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:25   Link #90
Anh_Minh
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My first thought at the beginning of the ep: for a totalitarian dystopia, they're remarkably squeamish. Why couldn't they make a patch that allowed helmet wearers to be shot on sight regardless of CC?
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Old 2013-02-02, 15:59   Link #91
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My first thought at the beginning of the ep: for a totalitarian dystopia, they're remarkably squeamish. Why couldn't they make a patch that allowed helmet wearers to be shot on sight regardless of CC?
Even simpler solution, considering how overtly murderous the helmet heads were. Take the military androids, and set their targets to be human wearing these particular helmets. Not many of the helmet heads are gonna wanna stick around like that when there are hunter killers with an open season on them. This is a simpler solution, cause effective military war drones should already be capable of targeting enemy personnel in whatever context is needed...war robots that were INCAPABLE of targeting humans would be pretty damn useless.


Makishima is right in calling this a parody of a dystopia. It's got this weird combination of ruthless totalitarianism, yet it still manages to be incredibly wussy at the same time.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:05   Link #92
Anh_Minh
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Even that would be a squeamish response, especially given how ludicrously undermanned the inspectors and enforcers are for dealing with this problem. Given that the helmet people were committing wanton murders in public, you'd think they'd have sent in the military robots to exterminate anyone wearing that kind of helmet, then issue an announcement that anybody wearing a full face covering helmet was going to be shot on sight.
I thought of that too, but she said at the beginning their robots weren't armed and had to be retrofitted.

Quote:
Makishima is right in calling this a parody of a dystopia. It's got this weird combination of ruthless totalitarianism, yet it still manages to be incredibly wussy at the same time.
Yeah. To be honest, it's a bit of a story breaker, for me. I'm not sure if the author is trying to say something with this story, but whatever argument he's trying to make feels undermined as a result.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:13   Link #93
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I thought of that too, but she said at the beginning their robots weren't armed and had to be retrofitted.
They said they needed to switch the parts on the border security drones with NON LETHALS. To me that suggests the border security drones are armed lethally.

...at least I'd hope border security drones were armed lethally. Cause otherwise this is an entire country that could be conquered by a dismounted platoon of light infantry.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:25   Link #94
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At a meta-level, there's many possible reasons for Kagari being put on Akane's team. One I want to throw out there - The Enforcer most likely to be swayed by Makishima making an anti-Sybil speech is Kagari. Just something to think about...
That's a very good point. He's the Enforcer who's had the least chance out of the bunch to make his own choices, and only got to live in "normal" human society until he was 5. So, he has the most to gain from whatever ideal Makishima puts before them, and realistically he could well choose to help break the system if he was in a position to do so. It would even fit in with the little bit of character development he had in that scene with Akane earlier in the series.


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More this series goes on the more I think Maki is not bad. I mean this ep really painted him in a good light.

...

Only reason Maki is considered a bad guy is for killing the 2 leads friends but now if Maki character keeps on this track and once we learn his true intentions if they are not this the strong kill the weak mentality we were first presented with I can consider this a few deaths for a much greater cost. Well I am hoping they don't paint Maki as bad animes feel the need to paint doing what needs to be done or business as bad and evil.
He went around giving people the means and backup for committing murders (with no practical value to overthrowing Sybil), then had them killed, and he even committed the completely unnecessary murder of Akane's friend (and he wasn't under any threat there at all, remember). He's now deliberately incited a society to riot and commit murders.

Of course Makishima is a bad guy. They're not just painting him as bad, the things he's done make him a terrible person. It doesn't matter what his intentions are. We can't absolve him of responsibility for his actions just because of also thinking the Sybil system is bad. That's a really dangerous way of thinking. One of the things I find most interesting about the series is that we're being shown a dystopian society that is being presented to us as wrong, but the people trying to break down that system are also, due to the means they've chosen, being shown to be wrong.

Having Sasayama and Yuki killed was absolutely not the only thing he did, but those things would still be bad enough that saying Makishima is not a bad guy because the "only" things he did were killing them is rather ridiculously dismissive of how bad those actions were. Murdering one innocent person like Yuki is, actually, enough to make someone a bad person.

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Originally Posted by Vicious108 View Post
And that's what I think he gets out of the things he does on a personal level. He's doing what he believes is the right thing to do (restoring people's free wills and consequently restoring meaning and value to their lives), but at the same time his efforts and the allies and targets he chooses are all a means for for him juxtapose himself with others and thus come to find and understand himself. Because he lacks something himself (and that may be related to his connection to Sybil's Bureau Chief), he can only achieve that through the observation of those around him, and I get the feeling that he believes Kougami will likely be the one to contribute the most to that end, which is why it also wouldn't surprise me if his number one priority here was to have that potentially meaningful and enlightening confrontation with him.
Your analysis of Makishima there is excellent, and I think it makes his actions make much more sense.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:44   Link #95
Vicious108
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Yeah. To be honest, it's a bit of a story breaker, for me. I'm not sure if the author is trying to say something with this story, but whatever argument he's trying to make feels undermined as a result.
Well, it could be that Urobuchi genuinely believes Japanese society may very well become something akin to a parody of a dystopia in the future, if the various criticisms he's leveled at it through Psycho-Pass remain as they are.
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Old 2013-02-02, 17:35   Link #96
Anh_Minh
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Anything's possible, but I think an actual, normal totalitarian regime's more likely than one where those in power won't care about protecting their own power. The helmets are a clear and direct threat to Sibyl, which at this point is the basis for everything, including the power of whatever incompetents are running this society. They should be more likely to summarily execute anyone who's even seen one of those rather than worry about the niceties of their CC-based system.

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It's interesting to speculate whether Masaoka and Kagari being swapped from the usual teams was simply a writing convenience or an actual conscious decision from Gino. Before it was natural to assume that he chose the teams he did because he'd rather not have to deal with his father and old partner and thus pushed them onto the newbie Inspector, but perhaps his father and son heart-to-heart (if you can call it that) with Masaoka in episode 13 has made him rethink that course of action, hence him now being willing to place his father on his own team. Maybe deep down he believes that he might have a better chance of keeping his hue stable with his dad looking out for him?
I thought it was so they'd each have someone who could fight without a Dominator.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2013-02-02 at 17:47.
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Old 2013-02-02, 17:57   Link #97
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Well okay Psycho Pass is a Totalitarian society but really it's not the people behind the state that are controlling everything, they are letting the sybil system do that.

So in a sense the society & government itself is weak, it relies entirely on the sybil system too.

I don't know exactly what Gen Urobuchi is criticizing about Japanese society. I can take a guess but I feel I am too far removed that perhaps there is something lost in translation.
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Old 2013-02-02, 18:13   Link #98
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The Makishima quote that totoum made is basically why I think...

1) Makishima isn't doing this for just fun and games, as amusing as he may find some of it to be.

2) Makishima would prefer death/destruction over the continuation of the status quo, but what he'd most like to see is a world without a Sybil. A world probably closer to our own real world.


To be fair, I think he's a complex enough character that people can reasonably and validly differ in their interpretations on him. Qilin, Vicious, and I may all seem him in slightly different ways, but I think that Qilin and Vicious (and hopefully myself as well) have reasonably solid and defensible views on his character. This is basically to say that I think that Makishima is still somewhat open to debate.


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That was pretty much what I was trying to say, so cool. Just that, like I've been saying a lot in these threads, I don't think he's doing this for humanity's sake, but for his own ego and the deep-seated preconceptions that lie within it.


I'm of the opinion that he only cares so much as it adheres to his ideal concerning how humanity "should be".

All I'm saying is that he's closer to an artist in pursuit of an ideal than some humanist with a utilitarian mindset.
Ok, I think I agree with you on all of this.
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Old 2013-02-02, 18:26   Link #99
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To be fair, I think he's a complex enough character that people can reasonably and validly differ in their interpretations on him. Qilin, Vicious, and I may all seem him in slightly different ways, but I think that Qilin and Vicious (and hopefully myself as well) have reasonably solid and defensible views on his character. This is basically to say that I think that Makishima is still somewhat open to debate.
This is what ultimately makes him a great antagonist that he isn't a character that can be summed up in a few words. But then antagonists have always been one of Urobuchi's strong points.
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Old 2013-02-02, 18:30   Link #100
Reckoner
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I think people are not really considering this properly. This is a riot, not an organized attack against their country/city. They gave a bunch of civilians helmets which allowed them to transcend the boundaries of the Sibyl system. The key being that these are everyday people starting up the mayhem. Totalitarian societies maintain control through fear, propaganda, and deception. They don't openly wipe out their citizens in the public - otherwise this would turn the public against them.

Naturally one might think that such a society should have the ability to easily quell riots, but logically why would the city have so much staff on hand of that kind? They have tried to remove human decision on police/law matters completely. The current agents are there only to patch up the few holes/bugs in the system. Otherwise they wouldn't have any agents whatsoever.

What I think Urobuchi has been trying to get at constantly in this work is that this is a society that has essentially denied free will. Their inherent abilities are predetermined and measured by the system. Criminals are locked away before they can commit the crimes they may potentially do in the future. They do not have an actual choice in life. Makishima is trying to give back free will to the people, even if this manifests itself in the darkest of ways.
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