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Old 2013-02-01, 22:02   Link #441
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post

And of course, I've posted this before, but really it's not okay to abuse a character just because they are a guy and/or a loser.
I must agree. Not a criticism of anime in particular, I see this in almost all fictional media. It's sexist towards women (abusing someone because they're a guy).
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Old 2013-02-01, 22:03   Link #442
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Alternate love interests that end up "losing" (some may consider it winning depending on the series) get no romantic closure of their own. Or even worse, they just disappear into oblivion.

Also... characters disappearing into oblivion in general just annoy the crap out of me. I remember Akira Toriyama would entirely forget about the existence of entire characters.

And of course, I've posted this before, but really it's not okay to abuse a character just because they are a guy and/or a loser.
Alternate love interests losing I don't mind (because, well, they're not the main love interest, and shipping wars everywhere are getting worse than ever, Sakurasou gives us the worst shipping wars since Naruto), but an episode featuring that love interest's route would be sweet.

Likewise, characters disappearing into oblivion I don't really mind, but it would be sweet if the author or the staff reveals something interesting about that character, no matter how little. There is a reason people revere Eiichiro Oda as one of the Manga Trinity or something. HE NEVER FORGETS. EVAR.

Character abuse, hmm... Men are the expendable gender, and... some people really like to bash characters (and especially MAIN characters) just because they are losers. And here somebody doesn't like characters being beaten just because they are losers in-universe. I don't mean to offend you, man, but it's pretty much double standard, don't you think?

Women beating up men is a double standard as well. Female empowerment, remember? And it's not as if men are innocent of beating up women in real life.

But well, I think that's fine if the guy did something perverted or really horrible intentionally. If it's just an accident, however (which happens like 9 out of 10 times), the girl should just damn understand it's an accident!

Last edited by judasmartel; 2013-02-01 at 22:16.
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Old 2013-02-01, 22:31   Link #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Alternate love interests losing I don't mind (because, well, they're not the main love interest, and shipping wars everywhere are getting worse than ever, Sakurasou gives us the worst shipping wars since Naruto), but an episode featuring that love interest's route would be sweet.

Likewise, characters disappearing into oblivion I don't really mind, but it would be sweet if the author or the staff reveals something interesting about that character, no matter how little. There is a reason people revere Eiichiro Oda as one of the Manga Trinity or something. HE NEVER FORGETS. EVAR.
I do, because I like stories that actually respect some degree of continuity.

Quote:
Character abuse, hmm... Men are the expendable gender, and... some people really like to bash characters (and especially MAIN characters) just because they are losers. And here somebody doesn't like characters being beaten just because they are losers in-universe. I don't mean to offend you, man, but it's pretty much double standard, don't you think?
Bashing someone for being a loser and beating them up for being a loser are two different things. Then again, I bash characters for being badly written and not solely for living up to some kind of standard.

Quote:
Women beating up men is a double standard as well. Female empowerment, remember? And it's not as if men are innocent of beating up women in real life.
It's quite sexist against both genders and actually does the opposite of empowerment though I'd imagine how some might see it that way. In many of these cases the guy doesn't fight back, so it's not particularly empowering to see that a female can beat on a guy... that's not capable of fighting back.

And certainly there's a lot of unfortunate male on female abuse, though two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:
But well, I think that's fine if the guy did something perverted or really horrible intentionally. If it's just an accident, however (which happens like 9 out of 10 times), the girl should just damn understand it's an accident!
Why yes, but I guess we can't have that.
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Old 2013-02-01, 23:02   Link #444
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I do, because I like stories that actually respect some degree of continuity.
When a story suddenly removes a character in unceremonial fashion (i.e. without closure), there's the feeling that something is missing, so yeah, I kind of get your point.

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Bashing someone for being a loser and beating them up for being a loser are two different things. Then again, I bash characters for being badly written and not solely for living up to some kind of standard.
I found this particularly interesting when people were comparing Haru from Accel World and Kirito from SAO. So people complain that Haru was too wimpy, and yet complain that Kirito was TOO powerful.

I'm not sure if these guys should live up to the same standard since they are heroes of action anime, but yeah, I'm fairly certain that I would dislike a character for not meeting my expectations. But I guess I have too low standards for a main character, so I might like the character that most people don't, but not the character that they do.

Quote:
It's quite sexist against both genders and actually does the opposite of empowerment though I'd imagine how some might see it that way. In many of these cases the guy doesn't fight back, so it's not particularly empowering to see that a female can beat on a guy... that's not capable of fighting back.
But what if the guy was taught to never beat up a girl for chivalric reasons (and sometimes, not even then)? Sanji from One Piece is a particularly depressing example, since it goes to the point that he can't fight women in a series that's heavy on the action side.
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Old 2013-02-02, 01:14   Link #445
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
And of course, I've posted this before, but really it's not okay to abuse a character just because they are a guy and/or a loser.
Naural response from an exploited loser guy.

I kid, I kid.

It really depends on the characteristics of the "loser", dare I say, some fictional losers certainly deserve it.
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Old 2013-02-02, 01:20   Link #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
And of course, I've posted this before, but really it's not okay to abuse a character just because they are a guy and/or a loser.
Only villains deserves heavy betting... unless the MC is an idiot.. a few punch could make him come back to his senses....
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Old 2013-02-02, 01:31   Link #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I found this particularly interesting when people were comparing Haru from Accel World and Kirito from SAO. So people complain that Haru was too wimpy, and yet complain that Kirito was TOO powerful.
I guess it's a matter of degree of portrayal. I don't think Haru being a wimp or Kirito being badass is inherently good or bad. But from what I've seen both shows tend to overemphasize these things way too much for their own good. In other words I get the feeling of "Oh, Haru's going to talk about how worthless he is", or "Kirito's going to pull something out of his ass and win in an anticlimactic fashion" Can't say I hate either character, but I can say I don't like either as well.

For example, Shinji Ikari is a widely hated character, but I don't particularly harbor much ill will since his motives are fairly defined and somewhat interesting. Although there's some degree of "not this shit again", it's not nearly as bad.

Quote:
But what if the guy was taught to never beat up a girl for chivalric reasons (and sometimes, not even then)? Sanji from One Piece is a particularly depressing example, since it goes to the point that he can't fight women in a series that's heavy on the action side.
Well that's why it's not female empowerment. It's reinforcing certain ideas of gender. Not saying chivalry itself is bad, but... there's a reason why people like Touma from Index.
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Old 2013-02-02, 12:56   Link #448
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The trope "Abuse Is Ok When Its Female On Male " is already bad enough. The version I absolutly cannot stand is when the female does a mistake and then just violently blames the male for it, because reasons.

However the worst kind of double standard in anime/manga I know is "Girls are always right because they are girls."
Example: A girl does something stupid. A boy complains about that rightfully. Everyone else get into rage mode how the boy "doesn't consider the girl's feelings" and try to make him look like a villain. If a boy did the mistake instead, everyone would just rage at him.

Well on the other side of the spectrum: The girls become nothing more than glorified "sex-objects". Their only function is attracting readers/watchers. THIS is the part that is probably intended by the authors.

Compared to that, the abused males are just "tacked-on slapstick comedy" that are supposed to divert from the obvious sexism.


I call this whole package "political correct sexism". And that is exactly what 90% of harem Manga/Anime are.
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Old 2013-02-02, 14:23   Link #449
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^ Is that really unique to anime and manga, though? Not sexism in general, but that specific variety.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:30   Link #450
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
^ Is that really unique to anime and manga, though? Not sexism in general, but that specific variety.
Nope. I see it in primetime television and non-Japanese comics too.
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Old 2013-02-02, 16:58   Link #451
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I'm fairly certain that was almost a staple comic style for the Popeye and other Western Animations in the middle of the century (long before political correctness ever happened). Guy does something like look at another woman, and gets beat up. Woman looks and another guy and usually nothing happens. Though it depends on when. In the 1920s and 1930s it might lead to a spanking, or if there is another woman and fight.
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:13   Link #452
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
If it's just an accident, however (which happens like 9 out of 10 times), the girl should just damn understand it's an accident!
Believe it or not, I found a series that exists. XD

Spoiler for Suki Desu, Suzuki-kun OVA:


Yes, I was like

It was a pretty refreshing thing to see. Not surprising either though because Ikeyamada Go (the manga-ka) likes to do her smut shoujo manga differently from the others... (that's why she's one of my favorites)
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:14   Link #453
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Bikini string panties...

I think she liked him. :3 That is a sign she wants to ride your horse... <3
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:16   Link #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Bikini string panties...

I think she liked him. :3 That is a sign she wants to ride your horse... <3
Haha yes,
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-02-02, 22:26   Link #455
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Haha yes,
Spoiler:
Lol, that is sweet.

I think I will read it.
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Old 2013-02-02, 23:32   Link #456
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Spoiler for Suki Desu, Suzuki-kun OVA:
She's naughty....
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Old 2013-02-03, 21:09   Link #457
judasmartel
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I don't like overpowered characters who win their fights too easily (i.e. in anticlimatic fashion), whether by themselves, with help from friends (and rivals), or by Ass Pull or Deus Ex Machina. This is the reason I can't bring myself to watch SAO, no matter how popular it is.

Kirito doesn't ever lose a fight, and when he does, it's against a minor character (namely, his sister) we will never see again. His fans don't care about all that because it makes sense in-universe.

Kayaba? He disabled his invincibility flag so Kirito could fight him fair and square (this is otherwise impossible if he didn't, so this should get a pass, right?). Sugou? Same deal, Kayaba disabled his invincibility flag. The tree? Okay, he lost the first time alright, but that still didn't convince me.

There are more other fights where he had help from the system to defeat overpowered foes that I pull out my hair and think "WTH is so special about him that he gets a lot of help from the system? He's actually pretty weak without it despite 2 years of experience."

It probably didn't help that some Kirito fans like to bash Haru from Accel World because Haru is fat, wimpy, and weak and Kirito is thin, cool, and strong. But again, 99% of anime is all about thin and lanky guys.

So what now ? It's okay to be wimpy if you're Shinji Ikari or Shu Ouma, but not if you're Haruyuki Arita?

If you're going to give me an awesome MC, at least give me one who wins his fights HARD through good tactics and sheer effort and force of will, and yet loses his own share of fights to more powerful or more experienced foes. That's why I loved Kosuke Ueki, Naruto Uzumaki, Monkey D. Luffy, and Touma Kamijou. All of these are thin and lanky, yes, but at least they're cool and badass yet victories aren't handed to them on a silver platter.
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Old 2013-02-03, 21:18   Link #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
So what now ? It's okay to be wimpy if you're Shinji Ikari or Shu Ouma, but not if you're Haruyuki Arita?
Shu and Shinji have a huge amount of haters as well
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Old 2013-02-03, 21:22   Link #459
judasmartel
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Yeah, well, I know that, but I think they don't get as much hate as Haru just because they're not fat and Haru is.
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Old 2013-02-03, 22:17   Link #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I don't like overpowered characters who win their fights too easily (i.e. in anticlimatic fashion), whether by themselves, with help from friends (and rivals), or by Ass Pull or Deus Ex Machina. This is the reason I can't bring myself to watch SAO, no matter how popular it is.

Kirito doesn't ever lose a fight, and when he does, it's against a minor character (namely, his sister) we will never see again. His fans don't care about all that because it makes sense in-universe.
Except Kayaba technically beat Kirito in their 1st fight .
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