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Old 2013-02-03, 11:53   Link #2741
Sansker
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All of this is interesting but there is one problem with that idea of not being suit to do something: why they are not suit to do it? I mean Subaru can’t fly, why? Vivio’s magic is explain why is not going to work on close range but the others? To me is a problem when they say persons are and are not suit for some things and just leave like that. Besides Belka can be use for flight so why Subaru didn’t learn how to being a modern Belka user?

And ok, anyone can use two styles but they don't because... is hard? Seems really simple to me.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:08   Link #2742
Keroko
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Sometimes the simple answers are the right ones. There is no evidence whatsoever that one's magic style is somehow genetically locked, which means that there are only two reasons to choose a magic style: Talent and preference.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:15   Link #2743
Sansker
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Maybe you are right after all but if they bother to mention so much they could at least give some more answers. I hate when many basics needs to be assume because I am not told. So, ok magic styles might try to be different but in the end their applications grants similar results according to your preferences so really is more like they didn’t bother to check what makes them different. Both Mid-Childa and Belka can be use to the same objectives, being enhanced hand to hand combat or shoot something from the distance, making them focus on one and the other focus on the later but still able to do the other is kind of pointless. Is like saying the difference between two magic attacks is the color. Yes, they look different, but if they do the same and gather energy the same, why should we care what color it is?

That is why to me Mid-Childa and Belka are really too much alike when they want to a different when they choose to.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:24   Link #2744
Lhklan
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... Sansker, what the fuck are you talking about? Keroko and Kaijo just spent a page going back and forth about the difference between the two, and now you said that "Both Mid-Childa and Belka can be use to the same objectives, being enhanced hand to hand combat or shoot something from the distance, making them focus on one and the other focus on the later but still able to do the other is kind of pointless". The fuck?
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:37   Link #2745
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Maybe you are right after all but if they bother to mention so much they could at least give some more answers. I hate when many basics needs to be assume because I am not told.
Yet, your theory that mid/belka hybrids are rare skills relies on even more assumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
So, ok magic styles might try to be different but in the end their applications grants similar results according to your preferences so really is more like they didn’t bother to check what makes them different. Both Mid-Childa and Belka can be use to the same objectives, being enhanced hand to hand combat or shoot something from the distance, making them focus on one and the other focus on the later but still able to do the other is kind of pointless. Is like saying the difference between two magic attacks is the color. Yes, they look different, but if they do the same and gather energy the same, why should we care what color it is?

That is why to me Mid-Childa and Belka are really too much alike when they want to a different when they choose to.
Yet, so far this has changed little. Belka users like Micaia still perform at their best when in melee, whereas Mid users like Harry's most powerful attacks were her ranged ones.

The only exception to this so far is Miura.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:42   Link #2746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Maybe you are right after all but if they bother to mention so much they could at least give some more answers. I hate when many basics needs to be assume because I am not told. So, ok magic styles might try to be different but in the end their applications grants similar results according to your preferences so really is more like they didnít bother to check what makes them different. Both Mid-Childa and Belka can be use to the same objectives, being enhanced hand to hand combat or shoot something from the distance, making them focus on one and the other focus on the later but still able to do the other is kind of pointless. Is like saying the difference between two magic attacks is the color. Yes, they look different, but if they do the same and gather energy the same, why should we care what color it is?

That is why to me Mid-Childa and Belka are really too much alike when they want to a different when they choose to.
You understand that you are basically saying: "Baseball and Basketball are the same thing. They both deal with two teams and a ball of some sorts, and there is scoring and rules and such" while completely ignoring there are very definite differences between them. And Micheal Jordon was good at one of them, and fairly mediocre at the other.

To think of it another way, some people are good at throwing a ball, and some people are good at hitting a ball. Pitchers in baseball have designated hitters partially for this reason. You can either be good at one or the other, because odds are you won't be very good at the other. And yet there have been a few Major League pitchers who have been fairly good at both, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

You are either good at channeling your mana through your body and things you hold (Belkan), or you're good at channeling mana away from your body into beams and other various mid and long-range effects (MidChildan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Sometimes the simple answers are the right ones. There is no evidence whatsoever that one's magic style is somehow genetically locked, which means that there are only two reasons to choose a magic style: Talent and preference.
I do want to bring up that there is some sort of genetic lock, since everyone generally uses only one type of magic circle: Belkan Triangle or Mid Circle. The only times someone utilized more than one, it was Hayate tapping into a Mid Childan targeting system, and Subaru accessing her cyborg systems. I don't think we've yet seen someone utilize both a triangle and a circle.

My personal theory to this, then, is that when you gather enough mana into spell preparation, it is like shining a light on your core. The magic circle is the shadow cast by the mana illuminating your core. It doesn't always pop up due to you using not much mana, or a simple spell, or your device took care of prepping the spell. Essentially, only when you are heavily accessing your core for something of a certain complexity (that probably requires some kind of heavier math calculations).

In Hayate's case, her mana would have partially been shining on the Mid Childan tech system, thus casting a circle as well. And Subaru would have been casting a light on the linker core tuning program modifications would resulted in the cyborg circle being displayed.

Now, whether your type of circle is determined at birth, or whether it is just your mindset when you first start to do magic, I don't know. But you do seem to be locked into the same magic circle. Thus determining whether you are good at channeling mana through your body and the things you hold, or whether you are good at projecting it away from your body.

If someone has been able to utilize both, or been able to switch, I'd like to know.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:53   Link #2747
Keroko
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To be more precise, the magic circles are the mathematical equations that make spells work.

And we know this isn't gene-locked because people can make a choice on which magic style to use. If the circle was gene-locked, there wouldn't be a choice.

Most reasonable explanation is preference. It's more tedious to switch circles, since it means calculating things differently. Hayate gets away with this due to her rare skill essentially being copy/pasta.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:55   Link #2748
Sansker
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Guys what I say is still truth. You can use Belka to shoot something and you can use Mid-Childa to move faster and hit harder. If the difference is that Belka is good at hitting and Mid at shooting then why I can do the same with any style? And we all assume thing in one point of the other really.

By the way Kaijo I never say anything about Baseball, Basketball or Michael Jordan for that matter, what are you talking about?
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:00   Link #2749
Lhklan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Guys what I say is still truth. You can use Belka to shoot something and you can use Mid-Childa to move faster and hit harder. If the difference is that Belka is good at hitting and Mid at shooting then why I can do the same with any style? And we all assume thing in one point of the other really.

By the way Kaijo I never say anything about Baseball, Basketball or Michael Jordan for that matter, what are you talking about?
Because of the way they were designed? I mean, you certain can use a pistol to whip someone, or you can use a sword as a projectile, but their designs left them with their specific tasks: Shooting for the pistol and melee for the swords.

(Well, unless you're an Emiya)
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:05   Link #2750
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Guys what I say is still truth.
Half truth. Yes, you can shoot things with Belkan magic, but you're never going to out-shoot a mid user of the same strength.

HunterXHunter actually has a good explanation for this kind of phenomenon. Say a Belkan user and a Mid user fight. Both are of equal skill and have about 100 "power." When the Belkan user and Mid user collide in melee, the Belkan user will attack with 100% power, whereas the mid user can only retaliate with, say, 70% of that. Likewise, when the two clash in ranged combat, this situation reverses.

Also, I have yet to see a long-range, wide-spread attack like Starlight Breaker being used by a pure Belkan user. So there's that for a purely visual difference at least.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:07   Link #2751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And we know this isn't gene-locked because people can make a choice on which magic style to use. If the circle was gene-locked, there wouldn't be a choice.
Or, perhaps to look at it another way... people make the choice as to which to use, based on what they are better at. And what they are better at, is reflected in their magic circle. Could go either way, with our explanations, depending on point of view.

For instance, Teana became a shooter, and Nanoha trained her as a shooter. She can use some melee attacks, but Nanoha's whole point was "get better at what you are already good at, because that makes the most sense right now." As you know, you can still use melee attacks as a Mid-user, or long range attacks as a Belkan user, which makes some sense as you'd want to vary up your skillset a bit so you're not totally useless in all circumstances (Teana's dagger mode), even if it is a subpar skill.

I know if someone told me I was a better pitcher, I'd tend to focus on that. It may be my choice, but it is still influenced by what I'm naturally good at.

As far as the circle being expressed as math, I'd have to wonder at that. There has to be people who are good at both types of math, then, but we haven't seen anyone switch calculation styles (and thus magic circles) at any other time. And there has to be benefits to each style of math, and thus someone naturally talented would use a both forms of math depending on spell and circumstance.

So, until we see someone use both, I'm gonna have to stick to the theory that the circle is gene-locked (or developed at the time they first use magic or cast their first spell).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Guys what I say is still truth. You can use Belka to shoot something and you can use Mid-Childa to move faster and hit harder. If the difference is that Belka is good at hitting and Mid at shooting then why I can do the same with any style? And we all assume thing in one point of the other really.

By the way Kaijo I never say anything about Baseball, Basketball or Michael Jordan for that matter, what are you talking about?
I was trying to draw analogies for you, to help you better understand. If you aren't familiar with how baseball, basketball, or football work, or don't know who Michael Jordan is, then it wouldn't help, I suppose. But Michael Jordan was one of the best basketball players, who eventually retired and then tried out for professional baseball. He turned out to be mediocre at that, because the skillset for baseball is different than basketball.

And yes, Belka can still shoot and Mid can still clash in melee, but Keroko and Lhkan gave you good answers for that.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:12   Link #2752
Keroko
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So far, only magic color has been confirmed to be genetic (which make sense, kinda like hair color), so I remain of the opinion that the lack of switching between circles is simply personal preference.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:13   Link #2753
Sansker
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The way I see it is that Belka tend to use more close range magic because of their culture and use mass base weapons to long range attacks, that way they never really had to use magic in long distances. And they develop a style where the knights always get close. Mid-Childa on the other hand saw magic as the perfect energy to replace mass based weapons and they needed to create long range attacks but such differences never really were absolute to the magic styles and just how they use them. Besides Fate is the perfect example of someone who can blast you away and cut you in half.

To me there is not a good enough difference at the core of the styles and more like they just make ones out because how they were both use.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:16   Link #2754
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And yet Fate consistently crumbles under persistent melee assault of a dedicated Belkan user, which forces her to find alternative methods of fighting as she simply cannot compete with them in raw power when in close combat.

Fate's more of a case in point for the difference, really.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:27   Link #2755
Sansker
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And yet he hold her own, you even mention Miura who has even bested a Belka use in hand to hand combat. Well hand to sword but I mean in melee attacks. Fate is a light fighter, she lacks defense so really that could be because she uses speed and high pressure attacks instead of just raw power. To me still stands thanks to that. You insist the styles can do other things beyond their default difference so the difference is not that one. If there is one I believe is wrong focus it on melee and shooting.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:33   Link #2756
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So far, only magic color has been confirmed to be genetic (which make sense, kinda like hair color), so I remain of the opinion that the lack of switching between circles is simply personal preference.
Fair enough. I can see it going either way, honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And yet Fate consistently crumbles under persistent melee assault of a dedicated Belkan user, which forces her to find alternative methods of fighting as she simply cannot compete with them in raw power when in close combat.

Fate's more of a case in point for the difference, really.
I take it you are referring to Signum? To be fair, that was a Belkan user using the cartridge system. Raw power does mean something. And Nanoha always managed to shield against Subaru's attacks despite having a limiter. Signum is stronger than Subaru, though, who managed a number on Nanoha as well as Fate.

But I still agree with you overall on the differences and explanations.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:34   Link #2757
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And yet he hold her own, you even mention Miura who has even bested a Belka use in hand to hand combat. Well hand to sword but I mean in melee attacks. Fate is a light fighter, she lacks defense so really that could be because she uses speed and high pressure attacks instead of just raw power. To me still stands thanks to that. You insist the styles can do other things beyond their default difference so the difference is not that one. If there is one I believe is wrong focus it on melee and shooting.
And as I said, Miura is the only known true exception, Fate held her own, but only by coming up with creative ways to avoid Signum's blows and getting under her guard.

See, there is a difference between saying "Belka is the better magic style for close combat" and saying "Belka is unbeatable in close combat." You claim I'm saying the later, but in actuality I am saying the former.

Also, fun fact, Fate's energy weapons technically fall under the mid specialty of energy attacks, not physical enhancement.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:48   Link #2758
Sansker
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But she still uses fast moves with magic which do fall in to the physical enhancement. Besides what is using your energy for a direct hit but a physical enhancement of the hit itself?

I am just saying the difference are not absolute and to me look more like a simple set of personal choices when really I can’t appreciate any deeper difference and that in the end both styles are too much alike for all they talk about the differences.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:48   Link #2759
Rising Dragon
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And in the majority of battles between Fate and Signum after A's, 9 times out of 10 Signum would roflstomp the girl.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:53   Link #2760
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Considering we never see any of those battles could be anything to be honest.
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