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Old 2013-02-03, 00:16   Link #5501
Krono
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
Gildarts yes is very powerful but was also beaten by Bluenote
Gildarts was not beaten by Blutenote. Gildarts defeated Bluenote. The only reason that Bluenote ever gained the upper hand was Azuma draining everyone's power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
Everybody has lost battles till now except Natsu.
No, everyone including Natsu has lost battles through the series. Natsu just typically has someone save him from the finishing blow so he can go on to have a second major fight in the arc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
why the hell does she always have to win and be perfect all the time in everything?!
The thing is, she doesn't win all the time. She loses only occasionally, chief examples being against Jose, and against Cobra/Racer/Hoteye, but she does lose.

She doesn't lose often because she's the strongest women in Fairy Tail. Introduced as one of three extremely powerful, roughly equal S-Class wizards in the guild that had only Gildarts and Makarov above them, and she's someone comparable to a Wizard Saint. Having her lose frequently, or against anything other than overwhelming odds, would heavily undermine that.

She does struggle in most of her fights, but the anime has difficulty showing that due to their desire to avoid showing blood. That pretty much prevents them from properly showing Erza wounded and coated in her own blood.
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Old 2013-02-03, 01:10   Link #5502
mystogan
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Gildarts was not beaten by Blutenote. Gildarts defeated Bluenote. The only reason that Bluenote ever gained the upper hand was Azuma draining everyone's power.
, doesn't matter, even before that we saw both on equal grounds, until Gildarts kicked his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
The thing is, she doesn't win all the time. She loses only occasionally, chief examples being against Jose, and against Cobra/Racer/Hoteye, but she does lose.
against Jose the fight din't end with Erza in dust, it was on the way, but she tried to commit suicide,only to see Makarov intervene, and the one against Cobra/Racer/Hoteye, i have nothing against that, as i mentioned it before i was neutral about her before, i started hating her recently


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
She doesn't lose often because she's the strongest women in Fairy Tail. Introduced as one of three extremely powerful, roughly equal S-Class wizards in the guild that had only Gildarts and Makarov above them, and she's someone comparable to a Wizard Saint. Having her lose frequently, or against anything other than overwhelming odds, would heavily undermine that.
even if she is introduced as the strongest women in Fairy Tail, that doesn't mean that she can't feel fear, doubt herself at times, defeated by trickery, or be defeated by overconfidence or self stubbornness, being among the strongest has nothing to do with these things, but she she doesn't have a single flaw in herself, at not just about fighting about everything else as well,
and i am asking for her to lose frequently, but alteast once in a major battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
She does struggle in most of her fights, but the anime has difficulty showing that due to their desire to avoid showing blood. That pretty much prevents them from properly showing Erza wounded and coated in her own blood.
i have already stated this before that this may be a factor but if it is possible to show others on a breaking down condition with the same cencorship then it should also be possible for her
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Old 2013-02-03, 02:27   Link #5503
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Erza loses cleanly to Jose and Jellal, plus lucks out against Cobra pt. 2. The guys who do defeat her happened to be Wizard Saints at the time. Since it's established that she is a borderline Saint herself it makes sense that the only wizards she's lost against were Saints.

Not rocket science at all.
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Old 2013-02-03, 03:54   Link #5504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
i am pissed because Erza never ever loses, and i don't think there is any logic to ranking here, after seeing Natsu beat one of the ten great saints, and all the main bosses of all the arcs even though he is a normal level mage,
She being an S-class mage had nothing to do with it, Laxus is also an S-class mage but has never been shown win even a single battle, even though he is powerful than Erza, what would you call this?, is this not just clearly overpowering Erza just because of her characerter

why the hell does she always have to win and be perfect all the time in everything?!
and it's feels even more pathetic when they try to show in the anime that she has many problems
Err, what? Taking Natsu(the MC) as an example is pretty bad. If anything he IS expected(by shounen(I use the term loosely) logic) to win almost all his fights.

It has everything to do with her being S-class. Its like you are lumping Gildarts with the rest of average guild members. Laxus is powerful. Let's see which fights her lost? He lost against Natsu and Gajeel AFTER fighting both Mystogan and Erza. The second time he was against the master of Grimoire Heart - who, if you remember, was wiping the floor with Natsu's group - but I guess that still doesn't count as a loss, does it?

You're 3 point is baseless. She is NOT perfect. She's far from perfect. Just because she's powerful doesn't mean she's perfect. She has got huge emotional baggage which she does not want to show to her friends. She is the most eccentric person in Natsu's group. She has her moments of self doubt - but these are rare since her resolve in every battle is very strong. She can be manipulated - as shown by Jellal. She does break down - how many times has that been shown now? I absolutely do not get from where you are pulling statements like these.

So, you complain that she's perfect and then complain that when the anime shows that she isn't its pathetic? Yeah................
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Old 2013-02-03, 04:04   Link #5505
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Erza has easily been among the top mages since she was introduced in the story. Her being defeated by anything less then a Wizard Saint class opponent is basically out of the question if we are keeping any sort of consistency. She was at the level of a Wizard Saint since she was introduced.

Jellal defeated Erza through trickery, Jose was clearly the stronger of the two, and she got overwhelmed by the the Orecian Seis. It was also quite obvious that Master Hades easily outclassed her on her own as well.

And it isn't like all of Erza's fights are particularly easy either. Ikagura effectively negated her armor entirely, the fight against Knightwalker also had her draining all her magic. Azuma very nearly defeated her if it wasn't for the nature of Tenrou Island and the magic he was abusing.
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Old 2013-02-03, 09:47   Link #5506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
exactly she is strong physically/magically, and she is so very powerful, and hot and beautiful and everything,

why the hell does she always have to win and be perfect all the time in everything?!
and it's feels even more pathetic when they try to show in the anime that she has many problems
Look, Fairy Tail(the story) has a large and varied cast. Statistically speaking then, there has to be someone like her. And Fairy Tail (the guild) is like any other guild... it has to have both weak and strong members. Erza just happens to be one of the strong ones. You may as well complain that Gildarts hasn't lost to anyone (he did eventually beat Bluenote, just got stalled due to the tree thing).

There are going to be strong people and weak people. So are you going to complain when strong people win most of the time? Or complain when weak people lose most of the time?

And as it has been pointed out, Erza has NOT won all of her fights. Did you want her to lose vs. Azuma, and thus doom all of Fairy Tail? Seriously, I can understand just not liking a character, but don't try to back up your hate with logic, when there is no logic for it.
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Old 2013-02-03, 11:04   Link #5507
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We had similar discussion in manga thread and I have to agree. I used to like Erza but lately she is gradually starting to annoy me.

She never lost at all! Even Natsu had his moments yet she never did and no matter what happens all her actions are precise and right. The only time she messed up a bit was during Heaven Tower arc.

All her fights are boring lately because you know how it will end.

Every characters out there struggles, so it doesn't make Erza any less irritating. No matter how strong opponent is, Erza will win and have "knight in shining armor" moment.
Besides "struggle" is a normal thing in EVERY action out there. MC get shit beaten out him/her but then suddenly they get their act together and dominate the enemy like if they were a fly. Doesn't matter they they have broken bones and bleeding like mad. It is the most stereotypical approach in any action which means absolutely nothing.

Not to spoil anything but Mashima managed to ruin her even more for me in some upcoming moments =/

Whatever is already bad, he managed to make even worse...
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Old 2013-02-03, 11:25   Link #5508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
She never lost at all!
Weren't you paying attention when it was just mentioned that she lost against both Jellal and Jose? And her "win" against Cobra v2.0 was only due to luck, so one could say she didn't really beat him. She only fought her Edolas self to a draw, so she didn't win that one either. And she lost in her first bout with the Oracien Seis crew (remember her arm getting poisoned?). And it wasn't clear she'd prevail against Laxus as well. So, she's had her ups and downs, just like Natsu has.

How many times must she fail in your eyes before you'd stop complaining about her?
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:40   Link #5509
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And Erza's reaction to all of this...?

Erza Scarlet: For those who wish for me to lose, you may try to do so with all your strength - Come Forth!

...

The anime just made the Pandemonium thing look more like an obstacle course that she can clear every day instead of the exhausting bout that it was in the manga.

Compare this:
Spoiler for Anime Ver.:

with this:
Spoiler for Manga Ver.:


Erza got roughed up a lot more in the manga version, hell she's bloodied and brusied, which she was in nearly all her serious fights starting from Jose onward. The anime white-washed it because of network and timeslot constraints. The Pandemonium event wasn't nearly easy as the anime protrayed it to be.
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Old 2013-02-03, 12:51   Link #5510
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^ Both images aren't visible
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:35   Link #5511
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They are visible to me. And yeah, the anime does tend to tone things down in the violence and sexuality factors. I agree with Tempest35 in this regard.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:49   Link #5512
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The 'sexuality' part is up for grabs - literally - thanks to the fanservice...

Erza is one of the 'Aces' of Fairy Tail - everyone expects her to win and she doesn't disappoint. If she doesn't win, it's a massive 'Oh Crap' moment for everyone. She's also strong enough and smart enough to warrant that kind of reputation. She's the woman to beat for Natsu: No matter how strong he gets, if he can't beat Erza, it doesn't mean much for him as far as their 'rivalry' is concerned. Erza Scarlet is the measuring stick by which everyone is measured in regard to strength.
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Old 2013-02-03, 13:53   Link #5513
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To be fair, I said toned down, not gone altogether. For instance, Yukino's stripping. And some of the racier moments were relegated to OVA's instead of the TV eps (hot springs comes to mind). But yes, I agree with Erza's role in this series.

Hell, it was similar to Gildartz, who was strong enough to beat anyone. And so when he was deathly afraid of Acnologia, you knew it was an oh crap moment.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:23   Link #5514
mystogan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Look, Fairy Tail(the story) has a large and varied cast. Statistically speaking then, there has to be someone like her. And Fairy Tail (the guild) is like any other guild... it has to have both weak and strong members. Erza just happens to be one of the strong ones. You may as well complain that Gildarts hasn't lost to anyone (he did eventually beat Bluenote, just got stalled due to the tree thing).

There are going to be strong people and weak people. So are you going to complain when strong people win most of the time? Or complain when weak people lose most of the time?

And as it has been pointed out, Erza has NOT won all of her fights. Did you want her to lose vs. Azuma, and thus doom all of Fairy Tail? Seriously, I can understand just not liking a character, but don't try to back up your hate with logic, when there is no logic for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Err, what? Taking Natsu(the MC) as an example is pretty bad. If anything he IS expected(by shounen(I use the term loosely) logic) to win almost all his fights.

It has everything to do with her being S-class. Its like you are lumping Gildarts with the rest of average guild members. Laxus is powerful. Let's see which fights her lost? He lost against Natsu and Gajeel AFTER fighting both Mystogan and Erza. The second time he was against the master of Grimoire Heart - who, if you remember, was wiping the floor with Natsu's group - but I guess that still doesn't count as a loss, does it?

You're 3 point is baseless. She is NOT perfect. She's far from perfect. Just because she's powerful doesn't mean she's perfect. She has got huge emotional baggage which she does not want to show to her friends. She is the most eccentric person in Natsu's group. She has her moments of self doubt - but these are rare since her resolve in every battle is very strong. She can be manipulated - as shown by Jellal. She does break down - how many times has that been shown now? I absolutely do not get from where you are pulling statements like these.

So, you complain that she's perfect and then complain that when the anime shows that she isn't its pathetic? Yeah................
there it goes with the Gildarts ranting again,he is very powerful yes, but he is not overpowered, half of his body is broken, is always on some serious mission away from the guild, found out he had a daughter all this time and could never be with her, as a character he is not overpowered because he has been in tough time even though he is powerful

and again and again i am explaining that someone being very powerful does not mean that they are overpowered, but when someone simply keeps on winning just because she is the spice character and the base of fanservice for the anime is clearly overpowering them

All the emotional baggage you say ended a very long time ago,

let me point out all the things all over again
1. she is very powerful
2. she is feared and highly rated by her comrades
3. she always wins
4. everyone loves her and cheers for her
5. she saved fairy tail from falling
6. she saved her past friends and well as her dear one from falling into darkness
7. she found love
8. she is super hot
9. the men in the surrounding crowd put out their tongues like dogs at a sexy sight of her

tell me one area where she has failed, and then say that she is not perfect

when i say that Erza is perfect i already mean how it is shown in the anime
and you say that my points are baseless?!, why don't you try to prove that she not overpowered and try to come up with an explanation for that,

what i am complaining about is that she is very overpowered as an entire character in everything and because of that there nothing special when she makes an attempt at anything it's clear pwnage

and if you still don't understand my point after explaining it so much, then there is really nothing left to discuss
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:33   Link #5515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
let me point out all the things all over again
1. she is very powerful
2. she is feared and highly rated by her comrades
3. she always wins
4. everyone loves her and cheers for her
5. she saved fairy tail from falling
6. she saved her past friends and well as her dear one from falling into darkness
7. she found love
8. she is super hot
9. the men in the surrounding crowd put out their tongues like dogs at a sexy sight of her

tell me one area where she has failed, and then say that she is not perfect
The bolded one is wrong, point blank. She lost to Jellal. She lost to Jose. She lost to Orecien Seis. She ended with a draw against her Edolas self. And she got lucky with Cobra v2.0

So please remove that one from your list. Oh, since I pointed out where she has failed, you will now agree that she isn't perfect, per your own statement.
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:42   Link #5516
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Huh? Gildarts is the most strongly overpowered person in the entire series so far, they're making a point of it every single time. Mangaka even sent him away before this arc so he wouldn't mess up the power balance horribly to FT's favor. He never had a hard time vs anybody except fillers. Sent his strongest opponent to orbit with a single punch.

But that's okay, because it's set up such. He's presented as an ultimate-tier character, wasn't made this made later on because it was convenient for the story. His first screentime involved the city changing shape Evangelion style so he wouldn't destroy property accidentally.

Erza was ALWAYS set up as a very strong character right from the start, she still was set up to lose vs so many enemies because the story demanded somebody else to shine. Story presents someone as very powerful and you cannot accept that, I'm not getting it. You seem to hate her for, what? Because she's hot? What kind of reason is that?
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:52   Link #5517
mystogan
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The bolded one is wrong, point blank. She lost to Jellal. She lost to Jose. She lost to Orecien Seis. She ended with a draw against her Edolas self. And she got lucky with Cobra v2.0

So please remove that one from your list. Oh, since I pointed out where she has failed, you will now agree that she isn't perfect, per your own statement.
out of which i only find the one against Jose to be legit,
against Jellal there wasn't exactly a fight between the two, the only one Jellal actually fought was Natsu,
against Oracien Sies,it was a group battle it wasn't her solo fight, victory for here there would mean victory for others also,
against her counter part, Scarlet continued to fight when Knightwalker gave up when their magic power disappeared, even there Erza scarlet wins

and all you did was try to find a way to prove me wrong, but din't actually provide an explanation that she is not overpowered.(which is the main topic of our discussion)
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Old 2013-02-03, 14:58   Link #5518
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WTH? What kind of points are those? She's hot so you hate her? She is very powerful so you hate her? She found love so you hate her?

So, basically you want her to be as miserable as possible - because obviously she hasn't suffered enough

Yeah you are right, there's nothing to discuss anymore
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Old 2013-02-03, 15:04   Link #5519
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The bolded one is wrong, point blank. She lost to Jellal. She lost to Jose. She lost to Orecien Seis. She ended with a draw against her Edolas self. And she got lucky with Cobra v2.0

So please remove that one from your list. Oh, since I pointed out where she has failed, you will now agree that she isn't perfect, per your own statement.
This point is also a rather dubious claim:

Quote:
7. she found love
She hasn't found love. Alzack and Bisca have found love. They started dating, got married, and had a kid. Erza loves Jellal. Jellal loves her. And he's done what he can, to the extent of claiming to be already engaged to push her away. He flat out rejects a relationship due to his guilt, and his criminal status as an escaped convict with a death sentence hanging over his head. She can't be said to have found love, when it's a love that as it stands, she can never have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
and all you did was try to find a way to prove me wrong, but din't actually provide an explanation that she is not overpowered.(which is the main topic of our discussion)
You can claim technicalities all you want, but even the one defeat you'll admit to automatically invalidates your claim of "she always wins" and therefore she isn't perfect like you claim. You also ignore failures like Simon's death, years of being deceived by Jellal, which again invalidate your claim of perfection. And you're argument that she's overpowered is resting on that claim of supposed perfection. Especially as you insist that Gildarts who has suffered far fewer failures, losses etc, and had only been legitimately defeated by what's likely the strongest creature in their world, isn't overpowered while the weaker Erza is.

Last edited by Krono; 2013-02-03 at 15:27.
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Old 2013-02-03, 15:30   Link #5520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
out of which i only find the one against Jose to be legit,
against Jellal there wasn't exactly a fight between the two, the only one Jellal actually fought was Natsu,
against Oracien Sies,it was a group battle it wasn't her solo fight, victory for here there would mean victory for others also,
against her counter part, Scarlet continued to fight when Knightwalker gave up when their magic power disappeared, even there Erza scarlet wins

and all you did was try to find a way to prove me wrong, but din't actually provide an explanation that she is not overpowered.(which is the main topic of our discussion)
If if we accept your reasoning about the others, you still admit that she lost legitimately to Jose. So the ultimate points stands: She hasn't won all her fights.

When you yourself set up the conditions, and someone else meets them, will you agree to honorably adjust your stance then? According to your own standards and agreement, Erza isn't perfect.

And as Krono pointed out, her "love" such as it is, isn't really a factor, either. She may love someone, but she doesn't have him. And they may not end up getting together (I can see Jellal sacrificing himself for her). They were separated once before. Hell, by that definition, Jet and Droy are perfect since they have love.
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