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Old 2013-02-03, 16:07   Link #2901
Tong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
I always liked reading this thread but please skip this idol crap.
People tend to have opinions about things they dont know about.
And the more they're ignorant, the more opinions they have.
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Old 2013-02-03, 16:50   Link #2902
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by Tong View Post
People tend to have opinions about things they dont know about.
And the more they're ignorant, the more opinions they have.
I like how this comment takes a dump on itself.
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Old 2013-02-03, 17:05   Link #2903
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
In Shion no Ou 13-yo Shion announced that she was not intending to go to high school in order to pursue her career as professional Shougi player. Some of her friends were surprised, but no one seemed to think that she might be better off finishing school first.
Seiji you might recall that in Hikaru no Go, Hikaru also does not go to high school and instead sticks to being a professional Go player.

It's not in the dub version but in Whisper of the Heart Seiji also decides not to go to high school and then to pursue the violin.

I think we hear "not go to high school" and think drop out but this isn't the case since High school is just not mandatory in Japan, even though most Japanese do attend high school. The mandatory schooling stops at middle school.

So I think when a character doesn't attend high school it's not saying education is not important but if you have a dream/goal you should pursue it if that is the path you believe in.

As for the AKB48 idols what I understand that while they perform every day, there are so many of them that no one is constantly performing, perhaps freeing up time for education if they want to attend.

However while I don't think education is being taking away from those girls, I have other problems with the industry. The "no dating" thing bothers me immensely. It's not even about the girls, it's about keeping them "pure" for their fans. I just find the whole notion of that very sexist. And heck I don't even see this as a cultural difference as I don't think idol culture necessarily represents Japan as a whole.
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Old 2013-02-03, 18:12   Link #2904
Tecprincess
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I am in love with meiji era and before, specially the architectural aspect of it. If I make lot of money, I will build a house like traditional Japanese house with small Japanese garden. Sliding doors and all.
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Old 2013-02-04, 14:07   Link #2905
DonQuigleone
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I don't think there are many countries in the world where High School is mandatory, though one's job prospects are often so poor without it that it's de facto mandatory.

However, even if the AKB48 girls were in high school, it's entirely likely that their education would be inadequate to getting a "normal" job. For one thing, High school in and of itself is often not good enough to get "normal" people a good job. If we take into account that girls in AKB4, due to time commitments at the least, probably take their classes at the lower level then their peers, and also don't go to College after graduating, they'll be in even worse shape then the "average person" when it comes to finding a normal job.

I think for a person leaving AKB48, their only option probably would be the water trade. I mean it's not like stories of Idols turning up in pink movies are uncommon. These Idols are treated like commodities by their employers, and I find it difficult to understand how some of the people on this thread have so little empathy for them. And as I said, they're not like western pop idols, for one thing their pay is usually very low. People need to have a bit of sympathy. No one should have to choose between a Career and Love, particularly impressionable young girls.

It's not like they're making sex tapes, they're just hanging out at a guy's apartment...
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Old 2013-02-04, 19:59   Link #2906
sa547
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If some of those girls couldn't get into ordinary high school because of their work obligations, they home study.

TBH, some people here may never be able to comprehend how and why those girls want to be idols, which is far removed from the kind of "idols" espoused by a certain television show.

One thing is for sure: the best word to describe the global reaction is of hypocrisy.
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Old 2013-02-04, 20:05   Link #2907
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
If some of those girls couldn't get into ordinary high school because of their work obligations, they home study.
Why would you home study if you think you have a future as a fashionable pop idol stretching out ahead of you? Maths doesn't help you sing, dance and look pretty.
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Old 2013-02-04, 20:31   Link #2908
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Why would you home study if you think you have a future as a fashionable pop idol stretching out ahead of you? Maths doesn't help you sing, dance and look pretty.
It's good to study and have something to fall back on if your stardom life ends earlier than expected. Most AKB48 members graduate (leave) when they get too old. So I'm sure at least some of them see worth in studying as much as they can so that they can have as good job prospects as possible when they leave AKB48 (not saying they would all actually go out and work instead of sing more or become a housewife or whatever, but it's nice to have options in education because that is very stable). Though there's always other unskilled labor. I'm just saying what may go through at least some idols' minds who choose to study as much as they can instead.

tl;dr Stardom is not a long stable career for some AKB48 members, esp since they know most if not all of them will graduate, when they are too old or get tired of being a member, or what have you. Of course some leave the group to continue into greater stardom things, but not all do. There was SDN48 for older members, but I think it's gone now.

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-04 at 20:50.
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Old 2013-02-04, 21:56   Link #2909
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
You can't squeeze a pair of boobs and expect to be smothered to near death by it every day - there will come one day when it will no longer be as firm and plump as it was.
Never underestimate the power of science! Or put another way, never doubt the ability of a business to take something considered useless and turn it into something considered useful.

I don't get the whole idol thing, but that's a cultural difference. The closest thing that exists in the US is stuff like boy/girl bands (which come and go in popularity) and a few manufactured pop stars who get a few hits and then vanish until television needs a show about washed up has beens.

However I don't think it is fair to criticize the fans of idols too much. America has their own perverse idol worship as well. The celebrity culture drip feed is a multibillion dollar business, complete with entire media outlets dedicated to them. Paparazzi have a shameful history of being shameless in the intrusion of the private lives of public figures. It's sad that people have forgotten Princess Diana so quickly, but she's not the first or last. For example, I find the whole celebrity pregnancy fetish completely assnine. If I could ban "baby bump" from the human lexicon, I would.

But, there are certain images that the public expects out of their public figures, and packaging matters greatly. Just like you sell yourself as a package in a job interview, so too do these girls as pop idols.

That isn't to say that I agree with it, and I carry the opinion that the illusion of celebrity packaging is poisonous culturally and destructive of lives, but that is the world we live in, and for now, it's part of the deal when you're in the public spotlight.
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Old 2013-02-05, 00:37   Link #2910
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
It's good to study and have something to fall back on if your stardom life ends earlier than expected. Most AKB48 members graduate (leave) when they get too old. So I'm sure at least some of them see worth in studying as much as they can so that they can have as good job prospects as possible when they leave AKB48 (not saying they would all actually go out and work instead of sing more or become a housewife or whatever, but it's nice to have options in education because that is very stable). Though there's always other unskilled labor. I'm just saying what may go through at least some idols' minds who choose to study as much as they can instead.

tl;dr Stardom is not a long stable career for some AKB48 members, esp since they know most if not all of them will graduate, when they are too old or get tired of being a member, or what have you. Of course some leave the group to continue into greater stardom things, but not all do. There was SDN48 for older members, but I think it's gone now.
That's a sensible way to look at things, but are Teens generally sensible? I don't know about you, but at the age many of these girls become Idols, I didn't have a particularly great conception of the future, when I even bothered to think about it.

It's hard enough to get teens to study normally, when they have a life as a "Star" distracting them, I bet it's almost impossible.

I doubt that any of the members of AKB48 are thinking about what will happen to them when they "graduate", and I bet their employers has spun them plenty of yarns about how they'll become mega-stars set for life. No one goes into show business thinking they'll have a limited shelf life, particularly impressionable teen girls heady with dreams of fame.

I'd hope they do the sensible thing, as you say, and some probably do. But I'd say the majority do not.
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Old 2013-02-05, 01:30   Link #2911
SaintessHeart
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With regards to what everyone has posted, I think I shall take a neutral stance after reading through all of them because I think it is wholly a matter of perspective. Individualist or collectivist mindset, it is still based on how we are brought up. Some may think that it is bad to interfere with others culture which "they don't wholly understand", however, it is to be taken into perspective that culture is a learned thing.

What we are seeing now is pseudoculture based on the tenets of social norm as ingrained in the birth and creation of society as far as history has recorded, and that these agencies are making money off its uniqueness. To others, this incident may seem like a huge media farce, but to some, they may see it as an atonement on societal norms. So from this incident, do we see Japan as a socially backward nation, or they have been able to hold onto their beliefs and honor in this ever-changing world where alliances and ideologies shift?

There is no right or wrong answer because it is still perspective. I don't think anyone should take offense at another person's belief and outwardly call the person "having no idea how the culture runs so should just STFU". Cultures change and tide shift based on the demographic's degree of acceptance to new ideas adapted from other cultures, ever wondered why we don't eat each other's human flesh anymore (aside from "eating beancurd")?

I know some of the posts are directed at me - I have never been to Japan due to my financial background but I do read alot about it. I shall not take offense at the unfair statements of "you have only read about it, not experienced it", so I hope that everyone else could just continue this discussion in a peaceable manner instead of lobbing insults from a trebuchet behind the wall of their experience and knowledge. However, I do take offense at this particular post :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If you used examples such as Nakagawa Kanon from The World God Only Knows, I might be more open to your example.
I demand royalty for using my waifu as an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Never underestimate the power of science! Or put another way, never doubt the ability of a business to take something considered useless and turn it into something considered useful.
Oh sure. Talk about a certain doujin making money off the useless meat of a certain demon queen at Comiket.

Quote:
I don't get the whole idol thing, but that's a cultural difference. The closest thing that exists in the US is stuff like boy/girl bands (which come and go in popularity) and a few manufactured pop stars who get a few hits and then vanish until television needs a show about washed up has beens.

However I don't think it is fair to criticize the fans of idols too much. America has their own perverse idol worship as well. The celebrity culture drip feed is a multibillion dollar business, complete with entire media outlets dedicated to them. Paparazzi have a shameful history of being shameless in the intrusion of the private lives of public figures. It's sad that people have forgotten Princess Diana so quickly, but she's not the first or last. For example, I find the whole celebrity pregnancy fetish completely assnine. If I could ban "baby bump" from the human lexicon, I would.

But, there are certain images that the public expects out of their public figures, and packaging matters greatly. Just like you sell yourself as a package in a job interview, so too do these girls as pop idols.

That isn't to say that I agree with it, and I carry the opinion that the illusion of celebrity packaging is poisonous culturally and destructive of lives, but that is the world we live in, and for now, it's part of the deal when you're in the public spotlight.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 2013-02-05, 01:48   Link #2912
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post


Cultures change and tide shift based on the demographic's degree of acceptance to new ideas adapted from other cultures, ever wondered why we don't eat each other's human flesh anymore (aside from "eating beancurd")?

Like eating soy people? They say you can't even tell the difference.
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Old 2013-02-05, 02:01   Link #2913
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post

Like eating soy people? They say you can't even tell the difference.
What I meant is this.

And Xellos would agree with me that "fish balls/eggs" taste nicer due to their "fresh fruit" taste.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-02-05, 02:11   Link #2914
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What I meant is this.

And Xellos would agree with me that "fish balls/eggs" taste nicer due to their "fresh fruit" taste.
Oh! I would have just said 喜欢吃豆腐~! (I love to eat tofu) one day and not realized what I really said because I love tofu! Thank you man, I am positive you have spared me some sort of embarrassment down the road...

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-05 at 03:53. Reason: if this is not okay even with translation please remove
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Old 2013-02-05, 02:33   Link #2915
DonQuigleone
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I criticize the Japanese Idol industry, but the American pop industry isn't particularly better (though it's worse in different ways).

However, I do think the way Idols are treated as commodities is a bit inhuman, perverse even. Fans saying you can't have a relationship is no better then the lord dictating the lifestyles of his serfs.

I'm not saying Idols don't have public image responsibilities. For instance, if an Idol was caught in a sex tape, or having shamed themselves in public (say public nudity), taking drugs or getting pregnant, then there's no reason they shouldn't be fired. Likewise, if an Idol is in a relationship, they should be discreet about it. So they can date in off hours, but they can't go through the talk show circuit talking about their new boyfriends. But outside the gaze of the public eye they should have a little freedom. Asking them to adopt the lifestyle of a celibate monk is simply going too far, it's unreasonable. Greater people then Idols have proven unable to restrain their romantic passions, and they still do a great job (Bill Clinton...). Idols should be no different.
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Old 2013-02-05, 02:42   Link #2916
Sumeragi
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I don't believe in personal "freedom" when it directly contradicts the public image on which the occupation is based on.
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Old 2013-02-05, 02:51   Link #2917
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I criticize the Japanese Idol industry, but the American pop industry isn't particularly better (though it's worse in different ways).

However, I do think the way Idols are treated as commodities is a bit inhuman, perverse even. Fans saying you can't have a relationship is no better then the lord dictating the lifestyles of his serfs.

I'm not saying Idols don't have public image responsibilities. For instance, if an Idol was caught in a sex tape, or having shamed themselves in public (say public nudity), taking drugs or getting pregnant, then there's no reason they shouldn't be fired. Likewise, if an Idol is in a relationship, they should be discreet about it. So they can date in off hours, but they can't go through the talk show circuit talking about their new boyfriends. But outside the gaze of the public eye they should have a little freedom. Asking them to adopt the lifestyle of a celibate monk is simply going too far, it's unreasonable. Greater people then Idols have proven unable to restrain their romantic passions, and they still do a great job (Bill Clinton...). Idols should be no different.
They do. It's just that the paparazzi decided to butt in yet again.

I agree there is a privacy issue, but I would not automatically call it the fault of idol industry, at least not in this case since it was some person looking to make a quick buck/5 minutes of fame who exposed her iirc. No word on if this person was affiliated with her employers, but seeing what the paparazzi is usually up to I would bet not.
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Old 2013-02-05, 03:25   Link #2918
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I don't believe in personal "freedom" when it directly contradicts the public image on which the occupation is based on.
"Public image" implies that the person is being owned by their fans.

How would you feel if you had to go the next 10 years (or more) without being in any kind of relationship whatsoever? You wouldn't be able to take it. Sure, you can say "that's what they signed up for", but the thing is, they sign up at such a young age that they can't fully understand what they're signing up for. It's not like a Catholic Priest who only takes his vows of Chastity in his 20s, fully aware of the choice he's making.

These girls are being signed up at 13 or 14, with little awareness of what they're signing up for. By the time they realise what they've signed up for, they're so far down the rabbit hole that their only choice if they leave is the Water Trade. Being forced to choose between love and de facto prostitution is nasty.

If girls were only being signed up as fully qualified adults past the age of 18, your position might have validity. Of course, the production companies know that if they started to recruit from older girls they wouldn't get any takers. It's not a life any sane adult would want to lead.

It's a scummy industry that reduces it's men and women to being commodities. Those contracts are so harsh and restrictive, that the Idols are reduced to a state almost like slavery. The difference between an Idol and a sex slave is that a sex slave gets to have sex. Both of their lives are completely controlled by older men, and both get thrown away when they're older and no longer so beautiful.
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Old 2013-02-05, 03:31   Link #2919
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
By the time they realise what they've signed up for, they're so far down the rabbit hole that their only choice if they leave is the Water Trade. Being forced to choose between love and de facto prostitution is nasty.
Exactly the kind of misconception that results in the deeply flawed view you speak of. Why exactly is the idol industry leading only to prostitution? Isn't that the kind of view that only hypocritically reinforces your supposed view on the problems of the idol industry?


I don't give a damn about personal freedom, for an occupation is an occupation. Any irresponsible person that does not accept it on the basis of "personal freedom" will never gain my respect.
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Old 2013-02-05, 03:33   Link #2920
Ridwan
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This thread is getting fruitier and fruitier. And it's far from the first time either.

And comparing the current case with forced-prostitution is just crazy.
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