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Old 2013-02-05, 05:19   Link #1
cyth
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Complaint: Nothing is being done about casual spoiler culture in some threads

Some topics--in this case I'm talking about JoJo's Bizarre Adventure--have developed a culture of casually spoiling the manga, and you moderators seem to think that's OK, because nothing is being done about it.

I stopped reading the thread after I issued warnings and participants continued with their habits. I suspect they didn't receive proper punishment. Five minutes ago, after a long time, I decide to check out the thread again because I was excited about the anime's sales success, and yet again, I find a casual manga spoiler (I believe those are completely forbidden in anime topics).

I'm not even gonna bother reporting all the offenders, because I'm probably going to catch another spoiler and regret it. This is a complete failure of the moderator team. I expected the thread to have a lot more replies than it has, but I'm not at all surprised anymore, because this kind of spoiler culture is driving away potential discussion participants, including myself.
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:31   Link #2
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I'll vouch for having been turned away from certain threads due to the same casual spoiler issue mentioned as well.

At the heart of it, you're always going to have people misbehaving either unknowingly or knowingly (due to laziness as one potential reason). I don't think the problem can be stamped out altogether but at the very least, all of us can help minimize the effects. Sometimes I do wonder if the report feature may need to be stressed a little more so that the wider forums are aware of it and are using it.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:28   Link #3
Westlo
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Yeah the part 3 cards done in the anime style has a massive spoiler... I already knew about it due to the video game but if you don't...
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:44   Link #4
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Some topics--in this case I'm talking about JoJo's Bizarre Adventure--have developed a culture of casually spoiling the manga, and you moderators seem to think that's OK, because nothing is being done about it.

I stopped reading the thread after I issued warnings and participants continued with their habits. I suspect they didn't receive proper punishment. Five minutes ago, after a long time, I decide to check out the thread again because I was excited about the anime's sales success, and yet again, I find a casual manga spoiler (I believe those are completely forbidden in anime topics).

I'm not even gonna bother reporting all the offenders, because I'm probably going to catch another spoiler and regret it. This is a complete failure of the moderator team. I expected the thread to have a lot more replies than it has, but I'm not at all surprised anymore, because this kind of spoiler culture is driving away potential discussion participants, including myself.
"Casual" spoilers aren't meant to be an acceptable culture, and we do agree that regardless how "minimal" it can be (be it even the revelation of a character name, despite it may not have any real impact, story wise), it should be forbidden.
That being said, I'm not going to state these were "natural" occurence, but I must say that we just can't be everywhere at the same time, and spoiler reports aren't as numerous as the occurences we could witness.
This is even more true for some series that none of us is actually checking (as in, it would be hard for us in the first place to figure out if X or Y mention is a spoiler or not).

As for Jojo's thread, I'm probably the only mod watching the series and I basically stopped checking it a little before Battle Tendency, so I didn't see the expectations turning into a spoiler discussion being that casual. But considering how the discussion with manga readers flew that much for quite a while, I assume it is best to create a "anime only" thread in order not to impair that much everything that has been discussed so far. That's the best compromise I can think of.

In a nutshell: we were never fine with this kind of forum habit that some people might have with few other members about specific series, so the lack of intervention is primarily because we are just not aware it is occuring.
Therefore, should anything of that kind happen, it would be best to make a report, however early it might be.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:48   Link #5
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brocko View Post
Sometimes I do wonder if the report feature may need to be stressed a little more so that the wider forums are aware of it and are using it.
/thread

On a slightly more serious tone, I think the report feature has already been stressed enough by mods repeatedly in the past, just that not everyone bothered to heed them .
Can I ask the mods here: just how often the report post feature is used?
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:55   Link #6
cyth
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I know it is inevitable that sometimes things will be missed, but I don't agree that regular members should shoulder the responsibility to police a thread that has gone out of control. If I see a spoiler, I will report it, but if I see multiple spoilers and expect to be spoiled further on if I decide to read on, it is just not worth it; I rather leave the thread to its own devices. I just don't think it's fair that original source readers hog threads for themselves in this manner, and lack of policing or punishments not fitting the "crime" is not going to make this problem go away.
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Old 2013-02-05, 11:55   Link #7
Klashikari
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It wasn't something we would have condoned anyway, regardless if the spoilers are minor or major. However, it isn't like we can be everywhere and see how a thread evolve regarding spoilers.
Let's take the Jojo TV thread: only 3 reports were done, which were by you, cyth, within the same day, and these posts were taken off. At this period, the thread was lively, but arguably not a spoiler festival as it became few weeks ago, so the actions taken were simply the removal of the spoilers without forcing to put a warning in public.
And after that, no report was done, none. So unless a mod check the thread themselves and see the recent spoiler tendencies, there wouldn't be any way for us to realize the thread was beyond than simple "casual spoilers".

We don't expect members to police threads etc, but realistically speaking, there is no way for us to find out every possible spoilers around, especially if people don't even bother reporting these.
So no, we don't condone that, and should we find out/got notified about these occurences, measures are taken. So your conclusion there is a lack of policing or punishment is puzzling me.

It is quite the irony, because more often than not, we are considered like spoiler nazi.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:04   Link #8
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Well, I can't say that I'm surprised it's come to this.

I saw and discussed the first signs of this way back when the SAO subforum was launched. Here's the pertinent thread.

Here's the problem, as I see it - Anime Suki's current spoiler policy is simply unenforceable. There's various reasons for this, but the main one is that we anime-only viewers are the exception, not the rule. We're the minority. And it's only a minority of that minority that cares enough about spoilers to regularly report them. And that degree of reporting simply won't be enough... but even if it was enough, its arguably too huge a burden for Anime Suki's Moderating Staff because of how widespread the casual spoiler culture is.


The majority is not going to refrain from discussing spoilers just for our sake. It may sound selfish, it may sound unfair, but that's the way it is.

You might convince the majority to put their spoilers inside of spoiler tags, which at least means that when one of us anime-only viewers gets spoiled, it's by choice, and not merely due to being in a series thread or episode thread.

I'm very confident that you'll never convince the majority to not discuss spoilers at all. This is particularly true of series threads that lack a subforum (but even subforums can have problems here).

So I think we should encourage people to use spoiler tags more often, and to totally free up the places where spoiler tags can be used. But I know the Moderators probably don't like that idea.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:31   Link #9
cyth
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I've given some thought to what can be done, and I think the problem might be partially solved technically.

First issue is that members don't know how to use spoiler descriptions. Remove spoiler descriptions!

To alleviate this change, the forum could introduce different spoiler tags that would have a distinct look, two at least: spoiler tags for Source and Regular spoiler tags. So it would come down to a choice between one type of spoiler and another, rather than putting effort into writing the description, which for some people, my mind be boggled, is an impossible task.

The spoiler policy should also be changed, if you decide to implement this. Instead of explicitly forbidding source spoilers, their use would merely be discouraged in anime topics. This would lift some burden off moderator team and, if Triple_R's assessment is valid, get rules more in line with the forum's culture.

I'm probably shooting myself in the foot for suggesting this, but I'd give it a try anyways.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:36   Link #10
Kudryavka
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cyth, when you say people abuse the spoiler descriptions, do you mean that they either leave it blank or put a spoiler in it??

I would hate to be spoiling anybody, so I'm being even more careful now.
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Old 2013-02-05, 19:40   Link #11
cyth
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What prompted me to make this topic was a spoiler inside a description, but both options are valid offenders and both common enough!
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:06   Link #12
Kudryavka
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Ooh, ok I definitely don't do that...

And I like your spoiler tags for source and regular idea. But, that's not how it already is? Or how it should be... that people post source spoilers in the source threads, and if they're aren't any source threads then they can make some. I agree that people who know source material that spoils the subject of the thread they're in (not source thread) should not post such information in the current thread. If so, hide it behind spoiler tags. And if you do, only put who it is a spoiler for in the description. Like I'll always put "Spoiler if you didn't read the manga to chapter 10" or "Spoiler if you didn't listen to the drama cd", stuff like that.
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:23   Link #13
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Or how it should be... that people post source spoilers in the source threads, and if they're aren't any source threads then they can make some.
Uhm no, regular users can't create new threads in the "limited" sub-forums, only mods can. Unless you create one in the games, manga/LN section eventhough those are more likely occupied for discussion on the original source
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Old 2013-02-05, 20:50   Link #14
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Uhm no, regular users can't create new threads in the "limited" sub-forums, only mods can. Unless you create one in the games, manga/LN section eventhough those are more likely occupied for discussion on the original source
You can't create a thread directly, but you can get one made for you as long as it's of merit.

If the source is a book or game, you can create the thread by yourself. If the source is an anime, then you can create a thread under "Upcoming Anime", then ask a mod to move it to either "Current Series" or "Older Series".

And if you ever need to create a new thread in an anime specific subforum then you just make a post asking a mod to do so in the subforum's "Requests for New Threads".

There is a place for the majority of discussion to occur without spoiling the innocent, and if there isn't you can either create one instantly or ask in the appropriate place then report your post so a mod will come look at it (I would only report for subforums no one ever goes to anymore though). The issue is that not everyone knows/cares about this and some people just shoot unmarked/poorly marked spoilers around in threads targeted to people who may not be familiar with the spoilers/source material.

Of course the only exceptions are the "Retired Series", no new threads there. But afaik if there is an important release of something related that is not anime, you can just make a new thread for it yourself (e.g. if a Kanon game sequel came out tomorrow, I'm sure mods will be fine if you just make a new thread in "Games" since the Kanon subforum is retired and cannot have any more new threads unless it is taken out of Retirement).
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Old 2013-02-05, 23:07   Link #15
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm very confident that you'll never convince the majority to not discuss spoilers at all.

So I think we should encourage people to use spoiler tags more often, and to totally free up the places where spoiler tags can be used. But I know the Moderators probably don't like that idea.
I don't like this idea because, as I said before, this is exactly the policy we had in the past (before I become a mod), and it was way worse. You had entire threads where page after page was nothing but spoiler tags as manga/novel/etc. readers starting having conversations between themselves, with no regard for the fact that anime threads are meant for people to discuss the anime.

My solution is: if people would just report the damn spoilers, we will ban the offenders. First offence gets a day. Second offence gets 5 days. And up from there. And if that doesn't "convince the majority to not discuss spoilers at all [in anime threads]", then that "majority" will no longer be registered members on this forum. If that culls the membership significantly but we have a remainder that can respect the forum rules, then fine. But I don't think that's what's going to happen actually.

You brought up SAO, which seemed like an epidemic of spoilers at first. But within a few weeks of really aggressive spoiler policy policing, the spoilers slowed down to a crawl, and fellow posters helped each other to know when not to post. So it is an achievable goal. But the mods and I don't watch every anime and can't police every threads as aggressively as I policed SAO. So this is where we really need the help of members who do care about this to not be complacent, or to assume that either a) the mods don't care, or b) someone else must have reported it already.

The problem with spoilers is that people follow the trend. If one person starts posting spoilers, other people start thinking it's okay, and it becomes an accepted part of the sub-culture of that particular thread. People don't necessarily participate in threads across the site, so they may not bother paying attention to what the normal rules are. And because it becomes "part of the sub-culture" it causes some people to start thinking that it's okay (because, again, they assume that someone else reported it and the mods allowed it, as was implied by the thread here), which is probably not the case.


So anyway, creating threads like this is pointless because, unless you actually reported the problems, you are part of the problem. No, just reporting one or two posts and being like "oh the mods should know by now" is not good enough. I don't watch this show right now, so I'm not going to read the thread and be spoiled on things that happen in the anime (never mind what happens in the source material). Putting this all on the mod team like it's "our failure" is not fair. None of the mods receive a cent for doing anything on this site, so expecting us to voluntarily police threads for shows we don't even watch and to even be able to know when things are and aren't spoilers in such cases is not right (let alone always even possible). All the members are partners in helping enforce the rules, particularly on issues like this.

Thread closed.
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